We have even talked about this since d-day and I thought she was working on it. Now that I have started to put my guard down, she is starting to put her guard down a little and it seems as if it is just her nature to be full of shit.
Here is the twist that bothers me the most. Since d-day, I do not put up with too much bullshit and I am done with the mind games. Recently we were visiting with others and my fww proceeded to blow smoke up someone’s ass about something she knew nothing about. Fww notices the perplexed look on my face and follows with a snotty “what?”. So I said (with a tone of humor), “You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about so quit making things up”. She insisted she was right and then someone else in the conversation called her bluff and she backed down and gave me the cold shoulder until we were at home getting ready to call it a night. Then she gets pissy with me and tells me how much I hurt her feelings and how I was cruel and didn’t care if I hurt her feelings. She was trying to put me on a guilt trip. A few years ago, I would have bit but instead I told her it hurts my feelings when she decides to be a bullshitter. She starts crying telling me how mean I am and how she is not a bullshitter if she believes what she is saying. So I caved a little and said that guessing out loud and trying to pass it off as the truth is bullshitting. She insisted she wasn’t guessing so I asked her when she has ever had an experience with the topic prior to that conversation and she just got more pissed and started to cry telling me how mean I was.
Although I feel that I have healed very well since d-day, I had to detach in order to do it. Now, I cannot reattach when presented with this blatant undesirable behavior. It really undermines any trust, and I cannot move forward no matter how much I want to.
I am not even sure where to begin with this. How do you deal with a bullshitter? How do you deal with a bullshitter that will not admit to being a bullshitter and tries to put you on a guilt trip for calling them out on it? Is it possible to R with a bullshitter?
Fascinating. Good for you for calling her on it. I have no answers for you, but I have a couple of thoughts.
You fww has probably been like this her entire adult life. It's part of her. Changing it is probably going to be very hard. "Why" she is this way, I have no idea. I'm sure it could be for a lot of reasons. She had a sibling that was smarter than she, so she developed this pattern in attempt to not feel less knowledgable than her sister? She learned it from one of her parents? Who knows.
The big issue, to me, is that she doesn't accept that it is an issue. It's not her, it's you being mean by pointing it out. Her affair was probably your fault, too.
I'll be interested to see if anyone has any insights on the "BS" factor.
Your sign on date is 2011 and 2 yrs later she is still lying or being dishonest.
Claiming you know of something when you don't and blowing smoke up someone ass is not getting everything that makes a way ward a way ward.
She is still in the mind frame that dishonesty about anything is ok and to top it off she shifts the blame onto to you, you big meanie wanting your spouse to be an honest person.
Why are you still with her? Did she work on herself in the past yrs or just sweep everything under the rug?
Time for a sit down and some talk about honesty and what you expect from her.
So I said (with a tone of humor), “You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about so quit making things up”.
Just let it go and don't embarrass her in front of others. Some people are afraid of looking stupid so they make stuff up to impress others. I think of these people as know-it-alls.
If what she says really bothers you, discuss it privately with her to get a better understanding of why she said what she said. Do not try to fix her. Just be there to listen. If she asks for comment, then be respectfully honest.
Is it possible to R with a bullshitter?
[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 9:12 AM, September 21st (Saturday)]
I can see that it is on the spectrum of infidelity, but it doesn't sound like it's on the edge of a slippery slope. My FWW tends to lie about stuff, like he'll downplay (lie) about how much something cost, or claim that he'll do something then doesn't. It drives me fucking insane but it's not the same thing as cheating, in my books.
People who have affairs usually aren;t great at self-regulation, nor are they generally people who are emotionally mature. So it shouldn't be a surprise that they have other areas where they aren't very mature...
I can see not wanting to embarass anyone, but letting her 'get away with' this repeatedly isn't cruel in my opinion. If done with humor like you said, I think she will get the message that you are calling her out.
I have a son who is a total bullshitter - his problem comes from being born addicted to crack coccaine (ADOPTED). I worry about his adulthood if he does not get this in check.
Have you thought of telling her that you are not being mean, you are doing just the opposite. The people you were with were not buying it, and you are trying to save her from embarrassing herself.
Good luck with this.
I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy
Lies are lies period and if your given the gift of reconciliation, lying is not even something that crosses your mind.
What's the difference between lying about something to friends and lying about something to your spouse.
If you think about it and are honest you have probably protected her previously in the past when this went on, you probably chuckled and rolled your eyes, found a way to make it work, but never mentioned anything as it was all a part of being married and making her feel safe as your spouse.
But unfortunately after an A you see this as a trait of a false person, BIG red flags, someone who makes up things to get people to like her or to feel like she belongs. And for you it does not feel good. Its a sign of one more thing that in your mind leads to loose boundries and then down the slippery slope of leading a false life and possibly another A.
Low self esteem is at issue, probably P/A and conflict avoidence as well. I don't know you. But I would ask what has your wife done to work on her own issues to make you feel safe?
I do think this is part of what let him start the LTA; he rationalized that too; he had gotten to the point that he could convince himself of anything.
He knows now that I don't tolerate this at all. And he has been able to change, for the most part. He had to be honest with himself first. I point it out immediately if he tries, but he rarely does anymore.
Good luck; it's a tough one. They first have to admit they have a problem.
I think she is a chronic liar who has no idea why she does anything she does.
^^Bottom line huh?^^
Now, there is a level of resentment that you have with her. I have read your posts from the beginning, and I have seen a change from initial shock, to the hopes of getting an ideal remorseful spouse from the aftermath, to a level of acceptance that you are not going to get much more improvement out of her.
Is that enough to stay in the marriage? At the moment, I would think that this is enough. You have stated that you can get along well with your FWW, but that you can't find that emotional reconnect that you have longed for.
So now comes the different levels of resentment. What was once tolerable, can now be quite annoying, if not grinding to you. And being that you are not as emotionally close, and will not be played a fool again, you have to ability to call her out...and not be her KISA.
I don't think that it was wrong to call her out, I just don't think that it will be productive. And you might not even be looking for that, so much as sending her a message that the shit she pulled 4 years ago won't fly with you today.
Just my two cents.
All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D
The sea is so wide, and my boat is so small.
Ego strokes, hmmm, that is dangerous, dangerous territory for a WS, right?
Personally, I don't lie about things that truly and really matter. I'm not saying that to pass off lying as OK behavior. Just stating that some people (like me) seem to understand a line with it.
But, see, that's just the thing. Your WW has crossed that line. She has gone beyond harmless fibbing. And, despite what happened in her A, she still doesn't value honesty enough to figure out how to give it to everyone. It seems she still wants an ego stroke. If my WH, a former BSer, pulled what your WW did, I'd be pissed. I'd know he was out to be "cool" and that makes my skin crawl given what he has done.
How did I deal with it? I didn't. He did/does (still working). I think a big thing for him is getting sober and going to AA - where honesty is pretty much hammered home all the time as a foundation for life. I'm not suggesting she do the 12 steps or anything - but it just goes to show just how much WORK it is to reform habitual BS.
So, no, I don't think R from infidelity is possible with someone who lies. I agree that embellishment is just a bad habit for some people that you can decide to live with - but not with someone whose fibbing has gone so off the rails. And you said this, which sums it up:
It really undermines any trust, and I cannot move forward no matter how much I want to.
My SAWH was like this certainly during the time he was having the A (that was when it was at its peak) and to a degree has always told people what they want to hear vs. what he really thinks. Since entering SA therapy as well as seeing another therapist on top of the CSAT, this is something he is working on.
In your wife's case, it probably has something to do with her Family of Origin. I know this is the case with my SAWH and with my aforementioned friend's H . Telling charming stories, being very articulate about the subject, thinking that people are really buying into what they are saying, hanging on every word...it's part of how they managed some sort of chaos in their childhood. In my SAWH's case, it was concealing his mischievous side from his parents. People thought he was such a good student/kid. Even his parents did not know all of the bad stuff he was doing.
As you know, at some point, that all catches up to them. My hunch is that all of the people she pontificates b.s. to know that she is FOS but they are too polite to call her out.
One thing I learned about dealing with pathological/chronic liars is that they don't like to be called out on their bullshit. Probably not the wisest thing to point it out in a group setting. In order to deal with this concern in my M, I have brought my SAWH's lying history into MC and he is also examining it on his own in his IC sessions with psychiatrist and CSAT. I'm still trying to figure out how far reaching his lying goes and if he is really making changes so that we can stay married. Lying, cheating and any disrespectful behavior is a deal breaker for me.
If she doesn’t know the answer to something, she’ll just make something up. It doesn’t matter who she is talking to either. It doesn’t have to be about important things, it could be incredibly trivial too. The other thing she’ll do is when the truth doesn’t sound good enough, she’ll fabricate something that sounds much better.
Is her father or her mother an alcoholic? Substance Abuser? Mentally ill?
If any of these is true, then more likely than not she learned this behavior as a child as a means of dealing with life, it is extremely dysfunctional, but very common in adults who were raised by impaired parents.
My WH hit rock bottom and wanted to change. One thing he wanted to change was to stop the BS. He told me that the reason he made things up was he felt crappy about himself if he had to admit he didn't have the answer. An arrogant know it all. Despite his success in the corporate world he doesn't feel smart so he feels a need to BS, it makes him feel smart. Honestly, I don't get it. I told him that there are many people smarter than me and many people not as smart as me and I'm okay with that. He should be okay with that.
He made the effort to stop the BS. I have witnessed him on conference calls saying, "I don't have that answer but I will get back to you". He no longer talks a story during social engagements...He really is done with that. I know for certain he changed because HE wanted to change. The 20 years of my trying to make him change did nothing!
Is she in IC? Maybe that would help her identify why she does this so that she can stop it.
I agree with the others that say, don't ignore it...call her on it every single time.
Also, I would be concerned about her response to your attempt to stopping the BS. Her behavior is that of a 2 year old.
[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 4:23 AM, September 22nd (Sunday)]
The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.