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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Why I think not knowing "why" is crap
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you're great, TG, too. I have learned a lot from you.

I feel that for some WS's being selfish (and just wanting to) is the answer. I also feel for many WS's that there is more to it than that.

I can remember screaming at my FWH (he was just WS then) that I couldn't believe that he was just that fucking shallow. Turns out, when it came to this, yeah, he was.

I have spent a long time beating FWH up because his answers weren't deeper. Because of SI, I kept thinking that there had to be more. I would badger fWH constantly to give me the real "why". It all came back to him being selfish. I mean, of course, there was FoO issues, bad coping skills, poor self esteem, etc. It still all came back to him being selfish.

In fact, there was a day when it all came crashing down on me. I called our MC and I was hysterical. I had just realized how very selfish my FWH was. I called MC because I didn't think there was a cure for such supreme selfishness. She calmed me down. Told me that she didn't feel MisterSister was NPD and in that case, yes, people can change their selfish behaviour.

More important to me than the "why" is FWH changing all his behaviour that let him believe that having an affair was okay.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wonder if a WS has a hard time facing the reality of what they did? I know my FWH would prefer never to bring up any part of his A.

I am not sure all WS are broken. I do think that if the why is part of being broken is helps a BS accept it.

I have read many books as probably most BS's have. I still think the major reason why is because the WS wanted to. Any other reason why is justification on their part.

Regardless Why- the fact my H had an A still pisses me off.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
topperoff22
♀ Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I haven't read through all the responses yet, but I hope to get to them after our counseling session. Looks like some great responses that will have me thinking a lot today!

Skimming through it looks like I may have started some arguments. I hope they clear up here....I'll have to see when I read later.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
ionlytalkedtoher
♀ Member
Member # 39802
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I used to want to know the whys...and there are answers to whys I guess...There are about 10 reasons that I believe led to my H's affair. But like someone above me said--those reasons don't matter. In the end the reason is because they selfishly chose to thats why. No one made him chose to have an affair, He just did. I was there the whole time as well and I DID NOT chose to have an affair.

Reasons such as emotional intimacy etc--they aren't whys. If there was a problem then the couple should have could have either a. divorced, b. fixed the problemn though counselling.

Option C...the affair is always the wrong chose made out of complete selfishness. It was a choice. A decision to purposely and maliciously hurt their marriage. On purpose.


Posts: 264 | Registered: Jul 2013
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I may have started some arguments.
We don't have arguments, we have lively debates here at SI. As long as it is done respectfully I enjoy a good debate/discussion. I get so many nuggets of wisdom out of it.
I am not sure all WS are broken.
Gawd, that just pisses FWH off royally when I say he was broken. He doesn't agree at all about being broken. However, some of his thought processes were definitely broken.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some great answers here (hardenmyheart in particular.) I find it simplistic and reductionistic to simple wave off the motivations as "because they wanted to." No offense, but "Duh."

The question is, why did they want to, and, by extension, how/what can they learn so they don't want to again?


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2058 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I find it simplistic and reductionistic to simple wave off the motivations as "because they wanted to." No offense, but "Duh."
Offense taken. We have spent 3 1/2 years on this. To tell me we simply "waved it off" is offensive. Duh!


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
topperoff22
♀ Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Still not through all the comments yet, but calling my husband a liar and an asshole is just my feelings at the moment. If you knew his history of lies, you'd get it, but don't feel that way all the time. I'm not going to feel guilty for writing that right now.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
easiersaid
Member
Member # 38398
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Many WS cheat because they are emotionally disconnected not only in the marriage but also in life in general. They've never formed the kind of emotional attachments necessary and have been trying to fill the void their entire life in one way or another. The next layer down is that they are chronically depressed because of this. Also, a lot of people who engage in an affair are insecure.

I agree completely with this, at least in my situation. It doesn't excuse it, but for me, it has helped me move to the "what's next" phase.


Me: BS, 40 yrs
Him: WS, 41 yrs (4 PA over 14 yrs, 2 ONS, 2 current PA of 3 months and 2 yrs)
Two small children
Married 17 years
D-day: 1/26/13

Posts: 108 | Registered: Feb 2013
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd bet a whole lot that WSes cheat to avoid facing their own pain. Right - this is my not so new hobby horse. In that sense, they are broken, but eminently fixable.
**************************
topper, I suggest you work out a process with your H that allows him to defer answering a few questions until you're in an MC session or after he's discussed the Q in IC.

A number of times very early on, I realized I was a lot better off if I allowed my W to do that.

If you're asking difficult questions, I think it's eminently reasonable for the WS to want support from MC to be available when she answers. If the question cuts deep into the WS's psyche, I think there are many ways of answering the Q, and I think it's eminently reasonable for the WS to want to examine the Q in an IC session before answering.

There a number of key elements that made this approach work. First, my W didn't do this often. Second, instead of saying 'I don't remember', she just said she wanted to answer in MC or after IC. ('IDR' was supposed to be reserved for times when she really didn't remember.) Third, the Qs actually got addressed in the next MC or IC session.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10360 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
cantaccept
♀ Member
Member # 37451
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really have no clue what his why is yet.

I do have my theories though, from the little that I have observed and learned from him.

He was never that vested in the marriage.

He was never vulnerable to anyone, held everything inside, saw it as weakness.

He became unhappy he dealt with it by running.

He used alcohol or drugs to stuff the emotions.

Uncomfortable feelings were expressed through anger, blameshifting.

Never held himself accountable for his actions or examined his life or choices.

I am a bit angry today, (understatement), so take that into consideration regarding the above.


"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key"

I would now like to be known as Can!

dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
wh boots5050
attempted R, it was all a lie

Divor


Posts: 1422 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Connecticut
cs2384
♀ Member
Member # 34873
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know that the BS's are hurt.

I did not have an affair because I wanted to. My marriage was garbage. My BH husband thought it was awesome. He was engaging in very hurtful behaviors that I had asked him over and over to stop. He didn't think it was a problem. I didn't vent realize how much of a problem it was until after the affair. Our marriage was broken. Now the A is over. And we're both extremely hurt. I was able to figure out why I did it. And it has helped me so much. Everyone's "why" is different. Now as my husband sometimes still engages in the hurtful behavior I don't feel sorry for me. I stand up for me and place my boundaries. Relationships are so complicated. My BH and I are so different.i get frustrated as why he does the hurtful things he does in our marriage. But it's for him to figure out why. I, as a wayward, can't even begin to describe the amount of pain and misery I was in to be in a spot to do the destructive things I've done. And coming out of that hole, especially after an affair, is the most difficult thing. So, the why is important. But your why is different than they're why. If they're truly remorseful I guarantee they are in pain.


WW--me 28
BH--32
Married ten years
Two daughters 7 and 8
In recovery

Posts: 88 | Registered: Feb 2012
struggling3
♀ Member
Member # 34671
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with you sistermilkshake...I also took offense. We also have looked hard...worked hard...both in IC and MC...and it comes down to "he wanted to", "he was selfish", "he has shitty boundaries" of course boundaries were not really ever discussed in depth, I just thought they were understood. Not every person is exactly the same. There are many, many similarities in all of our stories. We still are not all wired exactly the same.


Me - BS 55
H - WS 57/very remorseful and supportive
Kids 29, 26, 22
D-Day 8-5-11
discovered 4 month long EA
R - slow and steady but very optimistic

Posts: 318 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quotin you SM:

"mean, of course, there was FoO issues, bad coping skills, poor self esteem, etc. It still all came back to him being selfish.

That is significantly more than "just wanting to."

My dog jumps on me just because he wants to. Actually, now that I think about it, even he probably has more thought processes about it than that. People are motivated by more than sheer Id-impulse. It sounds like you know that.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2058 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bottom line, bionicgal, is he wanted to. Rather then deal with anything else, he wanted to have an affair to cover up his bad feelings and get the instant gratification good feelings he could get from the affair. The selfish way for him to feel better and damn anyone else's feelings (including AP's, but who cares).

eta: to fix bionicgal's name.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:17 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
suposd2btheonly1
♀ Member
Member # 40753
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I full agree with you topper!

My WH says the same shit. But mine didn't use a condom. His excuse was well I just had that vasectomy so she's not pregnant. What the f*ck? Thanks for respecting me enough to protect me from STDs. Thing is he hadn't even been in yet to get his sperm tested!

Before all this he was making comments like "I think that vasectomy killed my manhood". I almost wonder if his A was to validate he was still a man. And even tho he says the worthless sex with her was "eh", he just really liked that she was giving him the attention he 'needed I still think he's a liar.

As my guy friends say "you don't go back for more bad pussy", I believe it. I wouldn't carry on an A for bad dick. Tell your lies to someone else!

WH tells me that she had more hair on her ass than her head...even if he's just saying that to make me feel better he shouldn't even know that! Not unless she just told everyone while hanging out around the water cooler.

I don't know if I will ever know the "why" for having an A but it is most definitely something that I would like to know.

[This message edited by suposd2btheonly1 at 6:18 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me: BW 31
Him: WH 30
OW: 22yo whore who is still planning her wedding
Married 3yrs, together 5
4 kids, all boys 14, 11, 4 and 8mos...I hope like hell they don't hurt someone the way he hurt their mama
Dday: August 9, 2013
S, until his head

Posts: 206 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
topperoff22
♀ Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Although I feel it is normal at this stage for you to be calling your WH these names, it really isn't going to help you to reconcile.
I had a notebook that I used to call my fWH names, to vent. I also had SI to vent, rant and rave about fWH. Calling him all kinds of awful names. I needed to do this. However, FWH didn't need to hear it. He was trying. He was remorseful. As much as we BS's need to feel safe, so do the WS's. Even though they were the ones that created this mess that made everyone feel unsafe, our marriages need to be the "soft place to fall" for both spouses.

True and it is why I don't actually say that stuff to him anymore....only on here and in my journal. Great points!


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
topperoff22
♀ Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Many WS cheat because they are emotionally disconnected not only in the marriage but also in life in general. They've never formed the kind of emotional attachments necessary and have been trying to fill the void their entire life in one way or another. The next layer down is that they are chronically depressed because of this. Also, a lot of people who engage in an affair are insecure.

I also agree with this and see it in my WH. We had a great MC session today and some of this even came out.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
topperoff22
♀ Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 5:24 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Poor emotional intimacy in the marriage (i.e. being connected). For some reason your WH did not feel comfortable discussing his needs and dissatisfaction with you. With true emotional intimacy, your spouse would have come to you first; letting you know there was an issue, instead of keeping it a secret. Since you are calling him "a liar and an asshole", this tells me that he feels a strong need to keep secrets for fear of being judged and/or making you upset.
You are kidding correct? You act like I call him that all the time and not after the A. You have no idea how kind I have always been in our marriage. Perfect? No...but I have rarely, if ever, sworn at him. He needed to be a man and fess up the affair. I dragged every ounce of information out of him about this affair because he wanted to protect himself from looking bad (as far as I can tell from this point) or maybe because he did not want to hurt me. Either way, it is wrong to make me sound like some kind of evil bitch who he was afraid of.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
heartache101
♀ Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Topper
I call my Fws an asshole all the time.
I call it like it i see it! to his face if he is bein one i tell him! nothing wrong with speaking the truth!
Just dont want to call names. KWIM?


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3188 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
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