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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 15
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know why couples get divorced without trying to reconcile. It's because it's easy.

No.... it's not. Don't even fool yourself into thinking that.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor,

Twin sons of different mothers, married to the same woman and don't know it.

I once said to my WW. If you want me to trust you then tell me something about your LTA that I dont already know.

OK, mine didn't have an LTA. Well, I'm pretty sure she didn't. She didn't tell me she did, but maybe that's just one more thing I don't know.

To paraphrase another "twin son" here a while back,

I realized that she was never going to tell me anything I didn't already know. But what's the point of that?

So, I got pretty much the same answer you did, followed by "I don't remember." She's right that it was over 30 years ago, but I was asking the same question a week after DDay and got pretty much the same answer then too.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 2:03 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
flup
♂ Member
Member # 21259
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe the divorce process, being contentious, is easier than trying to be vulnerable again.

There's still a piece of paper around here that says we're married, but not as married as I used to be.


Me: BS 55
Her: fWW 50

D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married


Posts: 426 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Ohio
damaged71
♂ Member
Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OTS, you're right. I am speaking from a position of ignorance, I really don't know what a divorce is like. I think that for some there might not be enough redemption in the marriage to fight for.

We have tried marriage counseling. We went to about 7 sessions or so.
The last session I went to by myself. I found out she was still in communication with the OM after session 6. I figured what's the point. She wasn't "in" the marriage so I didn't care if she came.

I have since mentioned doing it again but she won't set it up. I know I could but I'm not doing everything. All she has to do is verify my schedule and make the call. She can't seem to do that. We are even in agreement to go back to the same counselor.

I think what I really wanted was for her to beg me to forgive her. She hasn't. She has said I'm sorry for what I have done and for the pain I have caused you. Somehow it doesn't quite get there.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife is terrified that I am going to leave her for what she has done. She really is. She has nightmares about it and will wake up crying.

I see this as a manipulative codependant move on her part.

Could it be that she wants you to feel sorry for her pain so you won't leave her because she is so insecure that she doesn't know if she can handle being on her own emotionally?


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think what I really wanted was for her to beg me to forgive her. She hasn't.

I wanted something along those lines too. Never happened for me either. I got a lot of blameshifting though. WW didn't tell me she still wanted to M'd to me either. But when the D gets discussed I am a selfish A'hole. She just doesn't get it or she feels so justified in her mind that she shouldn't have to be sorry. But who knows really and I don't know that I care a this point. She had her fun and now she can have it on her own. My heart is so hardened and cold towards any R with her that staying would just be torture on her and myself.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think what I really wanted was for her to beg me to forgive her. She hasn't. She has said I'm sorry for what I have done and for the pain I have caused you. Somehow it doesn't quite get there.

IF our WWs were actually sorry for their affairs that is exactly what they would do. They would be working their butts off to keep us and the M.

I think for SOME its more about keeping the security M gives them than it is about repairing the damage they did.

Basically I am saying that for SOME WWs. They just dont give a damn about us. They just want to keep the security and all the rest of the perks that come with M flowing.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She just doesn't get it or she feels so justified in her mind that she shouldn't have to be sorry.

It could be that they believe their blame shifting lies and there for think we (BHs) got what we deserved.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think for SOME its more about keeping the security M gives them than it is about repairing the damage they did.

^^THIS x 10 in my case. Always felt used and like a prop during our M. The A just confirmed it.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know why couples get divorced without trying to reconcile. It's because it's easy.

Ditto to OTS. Having done both(D and attempting R), neither choice is *easy*.

D amounted to financial rape in my case. I'm one of the few *lucky* guys who got primary custody of my son. She had to pay me child support to the tune of $360/month, but that doesn't go very far to cover a 50k legal bill. Then I got to deal with the emotional turmoil brought into my son's life as a result of no longer having an *intact* family. I knew it was coming and was the primary delaying factor in my decision to D.

Then we get to the *rebound* relationships. I was NOT at all prepared to get back *into the world* again. I chose poorly yet again, which brought the 4th woman to cheat on me into our lives for 7 years(Didn't marry).DS had to help emotionally pay for that as well.

Yet again, I chose poorly. #5, current FWW waited 9 years to cheat. I'm 20 months into this shit. Probably about a year of her showing true remorse. I won't lie and say everything is hearts and butterflies, but the good does outweigh the bad. I was giving her a year to learn what remorse looked like. Took her 8 months.

The biggest factor in her remorse? SI. (#4 is now the insurance approved MC in my area. Ironic, not? Especially since I footed a large portion of her schooling bill.) Anyway, she doesn't post much, but reads almost nightly. It was an almost visible change. I can tell when she isn't reading because the wayward thinking begins to creep in.

I know what I've got with her. Does it feel *special*? Sometimes. Not very often at first. Never in the first 8 months. Do I love her? I'm still redefining my definition of love. The unicorn farting skittles shit is history. I'm not seeking that butterflies in the stomach stuff anymore. But I do look forward to seeing her. I would miss something if she wasn't in my life anymore and I don't mean as the mother to my 8 yo DS.

Long and the short? The choice is yours. D with all of it's attendant problems or R with all the mind movies and lack of trust issues. I've chosen R. But my FWW is *truly* remorseful. Without that, without a doubt my choice would be D.

ETA punctuation to improve clarity and to add that 6 of you guys posted in the time it took me to reply once!

[This message edited by 5454real at 2:55 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)]


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2087 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It could be that they believe their blame shifting lies and there for think we (BHs) got what we deserved.


I know my WW does. when she goes on her justification rants I don't even know who she is talking about anymore. The picture she paints of me is so far out there. I'll own my faults and flaws, but what she describes is someone with the most fucked up mindset he should be committed. I am constantly being told what I think, what I feel, and what my motives are without even asking me. I used to get very upset when that happened but now I smirk or laugh it off. That doesn't help the situation much but I sure don't let it get to me anymore.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
kg201
♂ Member
Member # 40173
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rye, you and I might have the same wife. I was told for years that I didn't want to be in the marriage (even before she started her LTA), but now I know that it was her projecting her own feelings onto me. Now it's vilify, vilify, vilify, or she would actually have to admit to herself that her choices were messed up.


Me: BH, 39
Her: WW, 40
Together 18 years, married 15+
LTA 3.5 years, ongoing
Dday: 7/28/13
Divorcing, 3 children
---------------------------------
"There can be no friendship without confidence, and no confidence without integrity." -S

Posts: 391 | Registered: Aug 2013
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know my WW does. when she goes on her justification rants I don't even know who she is talking about anymore. The picture she paints of me is so far out there. I'll own my faults and flaws, but what she describes is someone with the most fucked up mindset he should be committed. I am constantly being told what I think, what I feel, and what my motives are without even asking me. I used to get very upset when that happened but now I smirk or laugh it off. That doesn't help the situation much but I sure don't let it get to me anymore.

I get the same thing. And it really used to bother me allot. Then I realized that chasing Alice down that damned rabbit hole is a fools errand.

Basically speaking if she wants to go to crazy town she can go alone.

Arguing reality with someone who believes their own lies is pointless. There is no winning that one. There is no realization coming to a WW that has shifted blame to such extent that she believes what she did was justified and we got what was coming to us.

The danger in this is that she may one day feel justified again. For that we have to trust ourselves that should that happen we can handle it.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kg201,

There were a few times prior to dday where my WW told me she wanted out of the marriage. I tried to talk it out with her and find out what it was she wasn't getting. It was always things I wasn't doing for her. I played that game with her for years (her LTA was about as long as the time she started wanting out). When dday happened the light bulb in my head FINALLY came on and it all made sense. Almost like the man upstairs was saying, "so since you haven't been paying attention maybe this will open your eyes!". I was in such denial about who I was married to and what I was allowing to happen.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
LifeisCrazy
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Member # 38287
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife is terrified that I am going to leave her for what she has done. She really is. She has nightmares about it and will wake up crying.

Sorry, but I am reading this differently.

YOU might be seeing this because you WANT to see it. But what I see - from someone who is also 19 months out but with a completely remorseful spouse - is someone who isn't all that terrified.

The reason I think that? If she was so terrified of losing you and the marriage then it would be her begging you.... BEGGING YOU.... to do whatever she can to make you happy, to ease your pain.

If you needed for her to make an appointment for the two of you she should be jumping at the chance. She should be telling you, proactively, where she's going every time she leaves the house and sending you photos of every place she arrives.

With all due respect - you are now 19 months out. You're not 3 months out. She should have worked out her ambivalence and begun the deep dig that uncovers the "Why." She should, every day, be looking in your eyes and begging for forgiveness.

That is what remorse looks like.

I think you need to make that list and lay out your demands. You should be done with the heavy lifting and be well on your way to healing.

I think it's time for a chat. Sorry.


"Pain is temporary. Quitting is forever."

Posts: 128 | Registered: Jan 2013
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that might play some part in her not wanting to discuss what happened. I think in her mind the safest thing to do is to not bring it up, because, well, bad things happen when it gets brought up.

My responses to her A's frightened her to the point that she has refused to deal with anything else on that subject ever again. There was no violence to her but there was great violence to objects in the house and threats made to her and other people. While I understand her thinking, I did the best I could do at the time considering the circumstances. Not my finest hour though. Had I been kind, patient and forgiving, she might have told me everything. But it is what it is.

I know why couples get divorced without trying to reconcile. It's because it's easy.

I get your point, damaged71. R can be grueling. But I was divorced twice by the time I was 26 and plunged straight into the depth of drug and alcohol abuse, which took me years to recover from. Right now R or D seems like a toss-up on the pain scale.

Basically speaking if she wants to go to crazy town she can go alone.

For some reason this made me LOL. Thanks Razor! I needed that right about now.

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 3:23 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not long after dday my wife said she wanted to R but did not want to go back to the way things were "before." No disagreement there, but I gave her a few days and asked her how things should be different.

I got a long pause. It was obvious that she had not given it any real thought at all.

Finally, she managed to say something about not wanting to feel alone. This from a woman who had been on a ten year plan to reduce the frequency of sex until I just didn't give a shit anymore. A woman who refused to acknowledge that the relationship between the man and wife is the cornerstone of the family. Who turned down suggestions for a couple's weekend until a just quit asking.

But, in her mind I checked out of the marriage and the family. She honestly believes that, even though there are no credible reasons to support that belief.

She once said she should have listened to me and focused on the marriage. Now that she sees the reality of divorce on the horizon she is back to saying, and believing, that I made up my mind to leave long ago.

Whatever she needs to believe is what she will believe.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
1985
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Member # 28171
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not long ago, in an exchange of PMs with MoreWould, he commented that it sounds like we are married to the same woman. I have read MoreWould's postings here and I will say, not only married to the same woman but also following the same script in life over the past 30+ years.
So much I still don't know and probably never will. But I've come to the realization that I don't need to know it all. It still has the power to cause great pain and to resurrect the occasional mind movie. And I think that will be true until I die. But it does not have the power to control me or my life. It does not block my ability to love my W and take comfort and joy in what she gives to me and in our shared lives. The message I will give you -- and I think MW would also give -- is that even when you feel like the pain will never go completely away, don't let that convince you that R and happiness is not possible. Because it is possible. But as MW points out, the process is not fast nor easy. Patience. Time.
Different subject. My W is not a member of SI. She is not particularly fond of it because she thinks that it stirs up emotions in me that she would rather not have stirred up. Translation: I might decide that I want to ask some of the 100 questions I have refrained from asking.
She does however have my user name and password and sometimes reads what I have posted. Which is ok with me because I also would not say anything in a post that I wouldn't feel ok about saying to her face. For me that is easy because after all these years I am way past the stage of needing to vent. For those of you not too far from DDay I can see why you might feel differently. I will say, however, that I think SI can be a tremendous help to the R process if the WW is a member also. I remember seeing early on posts from WOES (HT's W) and from JNRPA (Wonderboy's W). Wow. The other waywards would give them 2x4's fairly regularly and I really think (as HT pointed out here a page or 2 earlier) that it had a major impact on getting them turned around and seeing things from a real and proper perspective.


Me-BH 63
Her-fWW 63
DDay: June 1985. 5 years after A ended
DDay June, 1985
DDay June 1985
Still married - actually in love
2 grown kids; 4 grandkids

Posts: 590 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest - large city
reallyscrewedup7
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Member # 30825
Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It could be that they believe their blame shifting lies and there for think we (BHs) got what we deserved.

Two things, then I will shut up for a while.

1. My wife's trysts were a giant FUCK YOU to me. She will even tell you this. None of the rationalization or "it was acting out of some childhood trauma they were powerless to overcome." Nope. Her affair with OMs 1-3, and to some extent with OW, were her responses to all the "wrongs" I ever inflicted on her. All the women that flirted with me. All the times I did not appreciate her to the extent she demanded. All the times I left the toilet seat up.

And after reading this site for more than three years, I am convinced that all affairs have a "fuck you you lousy spouse" factor, even if they do not want to admit it.

2. The one excuse my wife laid on me that just ticks me off to no end when I hear it from a justifying WW is that "You were already checked out of the marriage. I didn't think you would care."

You know what? Any man would detach from being treated like cat puke. Or like an accessory. I would bet than in most cases where the man has detached from his wife before her affair, she contributed a significant percentage of the separation.

One thing good that came out of my fww's affairs - I no longer accept second class status. For a guy who takes no shit at work (it is good to own your own business as I am learning), I sure took a lot at home. No more. And we are both happier.


Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
SuperDuperWonderboy
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Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, October 15th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WOES (HT's W) and from JNRPA (Wonderboy's W). Wow. The other waywards would give them 2x4's fairly regularly and I really think (as HT pointed out here a page or 2 earlier) that it had a major impact on getting them turned around and seeing things from a real and proper perspective.

JNRPA got the shit kicked out of her in Wayward. It helped a bit, but eventually her conflict avoidant nature caused her to bow out. It started her on the right path, but she couldn't handle the harsh truth coming all at once.

We actually talked about her posting last night. She might be coming back to post a bit. Some of the new waywards could use another seasoned wayward.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
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