The terms "Accidental" and "Mistake" run through the truth-meter="I made a date to meet OM, met up with him, took my clothes off and got it on. Not only that but I did it multiple times and with other men as well. I premeditated it and did it because I wanted to." Anything else is b.s. and a lie.
Now if WW did not intend to have sex with OM but only have a friendly chat at their "meeting," then she is either lying to herself or dumb as a sack of hammers.
To find out why she would want to do something like that while married to me and having a baby at home, requires a pick-axe, some long rope, and one of those helmets with a light on it, followed by a long, torturous climb into the deep, dark crevasse of her mind. That's a trip I've taken way too often and refuse to take any longer in order to protect my sanity.
I lock my keys in the truck, okay that's a mistake... sex in our basement with two different OM - not so much.
D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married
For the better part of a year after dday FWW would tell me how she didn't know how sex for the first time with her last OM occured. FWW, who was already in an A with a different OM, was away on a work trip with her boss/board member who had been flirting with her for months, having drinks alone with him at the end of the day, invited him up to her room for a night cap, while he was there changed out of work clothes to bed clothes...
...and then says there was suddenly a kiss, he was hard so she felt like she had to blow him. But she didn't understand how it go to that point. She did tell me she drew the line telling him he could not stay in her bed for the night, and she sent him to his (adjoining) room.
I've seen a couple posts on SI from people telling some BH's to "man up". I think it's not only stupid and offensive to the deeply hurt person, but what the fuck is that supposed to mean anyway?
Sure, I get the whole "stand your ground","be assertive" explaination but really, what good does it do to tell someone to man up? And who's definition of man are they using there. We are our own men, with our own personalities, flaws, strengths, etc. Why make someone feel worse than they already do by attacking their resolve at a time where a menz is struggling with the fallout of everything he knows and cherishes in life?
And it pisses me off even more when it is coming from another man. Hell, we should know more than anyone the toll infidelity takes on the menz soul. Can't we be more supportive and understanding than just "man up"?
When infidelity strikes it destroys our world. for some guys they pick up and are very decisive and deliberate in their plans to move forward. Some men need more time. Some men it completely turns their world upside down and they can't figure out their ass from their elbow. Some guys try to bargain with their WW. We all have different experiences and different backgrounds on how to deal with tragedy in our lives. Lets try to be a little more understanding and accepting of each of our unique personalities and situations.
"Man up" is over used and way to general. It puts the man on the receiving end on the defensive and has him questioning his own self at a time where he needs to be propped up and encouraged.
Give that term the burial it deserves.
Thanks for posting it. Sometimes posting that is just as much for you as for us.
...and then says there was suddenly a kiss, he was hard so she felt like she had to blow him.
Damn, didn't see that. I cannot understand why one BH would tell another that....
Yeah, I've looked...but none near enough to me that matter. Kind of frustrating, to be honest.
[This message edited by FacePunched at 8:59 AM, October 17th (Thursday)]
Rye - I totally agree with the whole "man up" thing no matter how well intended by the poster. It's inappropriate and insensitive.
Murph - I never even thought of there being a support group like AA for menz in our situation. If there was I'd join it. Will have to look into that.
Has anyone else looked for a support group? I like coming here and posting, but I also need some face to face too.
My therapist hosted a weekly men's group that I attended for awhile. It was not bad. It wasn't dedicated strictly to betrayed men, though, it was just guys having relationship issues. There were a couple of BS's there and a couple of WS's there as well. Do you currently have a counselor? Maybe you could check with them to see if there is anything like that in your area?
Read your profile, Montreal. I hope getting that out will help you to heal. I tend to believe that telling your story is a big part of the healing process. Take care.
And she wants you to believe and accept this as a sane thing to say?
Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11
I haven't found anything here either. Kind of frustrating. Face to face would be nice.
Montreal, Wow, man. That's a lot to try and put aside... especially that "for better or else". Going back and reading that, do you still feel like it's worth saving?
...and then says there was suddenly a kiss, he was hard so she felt like she had to blow him.
I think I just threw up in my own mouth.
Seriously... this shit is just f'd up. All of it. None of us deserve this crap.
She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.
Based on what you wrote I am wondering whether the reason your wife is not willing to go to MC is because she is afraid of digging into the compartment? Your description of her response the other night, and the fact that you believe she really wants to save the marriage makes me wonder if she is terrified of what the MC sessions will bring out, and that they will ultimately lead you away from her. I would suggest that if you think that MC will help you that you directly address that fear with her. Your IC could help you figure out how best to begin that conversation. Helping her identify why she is resistant and setting some parameters for the sessions (I.e how you two will address topics that become especially difficult to address) might help her see that it might be ok and will help the marriage that she says she wants to save.
Anyway...my two cents.
For her it was like it never happened. We had the conversation the other day. That night while I am working out I get a text message that says "I am not good". She was freaking out and about to have an anxiety attack. She was horrified at what she had done and was worried I was going to leave her.
The next day she was completely fine like it never happened.
After D-day she told me about some of the things in her "box" where she compartmentalizes things. I didn't truly know the woman I married. I really didn't.
I think she is scared of what might come out and that I might walk away.
I think there are more things she hasn't told me about her past. BTW I met her when she was 22.
any of us who are trying for Reconciliation are already taking the biggest, most illogical, most counterintuitive, high stakes gamble out there. We are taking the idiotic risk of allowing a demonstratedly toxic, damaged, deceitful and dangerous person to come back and join into our lives. Back not only into our lives, but eventually (long term goal) into our hearts.
Well when you put it that way, what the hell am I doing trying for R?
That's good stuff right there, sums it up perfectly.
The wayward that could read that an understand the truth is a wayward that it would be possible to R with. But those wayward's that would be offended because after all "they are a catch and anyone would be luck to have them" probably will never get the magnitude of what they have done. Just saying a lot of us could probably get a feel for how likely a successful R is if we read those words to our WW and gauged the reaction.
I knew there was that possibility but I thought I was strong enough to not let it happen
D71, I hear what your saying here. I got something along those lines as well. "I never initiated anything, I thought I could just maintain the friendship without the physical stuff, I thought I was in control." Its though lines that they blur in their mind in order to justify everything. Like its any less of a betrayal if she doesn't kiss him back the first time. It doesn't matter to us, a betrayal is a betrayal no matter what the intentions were. Its' taken quite a lot of work and long conversations to get my WW to starting coming around to how false those justifications are. When she does that stuff to me I usually follow a line of logic like "and despite your intentions but was the end result, and could you have stopped it and walked away at anytime?" make her realize that there was always a different option besides betraying you. I think its important to make her see that that illusion of being strong enough was just that an illusion. If she was strong enough she would have stopped it at the first flirtation. Maybe if they see that when it happens in the future they will realize that the best defense is to kill that shit from the start, and never even get to a situation were a line might start getting crossed. Did I say LONG process to get this to sink in with her? Anyway, good luck, hope that perspective might help a little.
he was hard so she felt like she had to blow him
Apparently blowjobs are an obligation, at least that's what my WW says. If its hard, she must blow.....
That justification turns my face all sorts of red and purple. One of the few times I actually lost my temper with her when we've been talking about things. WEAK SAUCE!
face to face
Just to throw this out there but.....
Seems like we have a pretty group of guys here, and there is this little free service called a google hangout. I don't see why we couldn't utilize something like that. A monthly face to face or something like that. I mean we already have the members.
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
[This message edited by Razor at 12:01 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]
Its' taken quite a lot of work and long conversations to get my WW to starting coming around to how false those justifications are. When she does that stuff to me I usually follow a line of logic like "and despite your intentions but was the end result, and could you have stopped it and walked away at anytime?" make her realize that there was always a different option besides betraying you.
A LONG time back I tried to ask a question about this on the BS to WS thread and was grossly misunderstood.
My question was about that final decision to have sex.
I can understand the slippery slope. MANY MANY years ago I had a friendship with a woman at work that was evolving into a EA. She was actually pressuring me to turn it to a PA. As soon as that pressuring started I was shocked into reality and cut off all communication with her and I also told my wife about this. That was the end of that but I can see how a friendship can evolve into a deeper thing with out intention behind it.
But there is a moment when a person should realize that this is about to go a step too far. In slipping from a EA to a PA I call this moment the *get naked* moment.
So the slippery slope happens and EA evolved into a *light* PA with some kissy kissy stuff. Then WW ended up in a motel room and it was time to get naked.
HOW was her mind not screaming at her that this was WRONG? Is it possible that she didnt hear all the noise in her brain screaming about what was about to happen?
So at that exact moment there is a decision to start a serious PA. From here on the M is over. Kissy kissy and love letters are one thing. But a PA is a serious M killer IMO.
When I asked this of the WS here everyone was thinking I was asking some kind of sex question. I tried to explain but everyone was so locked in on what they thought I was saying that they didnt hear what I was really saying. I think I almost got banned because of it.
For me I think this is a important question. Because the slippery slope goes along but at some point there is a cliff. And at this cliff there is a pause (when the mind starts screaming) and then a decision to either step off the cliff or turn back. At that moment how was that decision made?