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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 15
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LiC

Great post, full of wisdom, much of which I've put to use in the 30+ years since my W turned into a WW (and then later into a FWW, and much later, just my W). But as 64Fleet wrote:

this must be the key. I don't have it.

No batter how awful your WWs actions were, the reformed version of her, in my personal experience and those here on SI, is One in a Million. Good on her, and you.

Most of us get half a loaf or less, and most of us D. Of those that R without a truly committed FWW, it's a long, hard road. I did it, and I'm glad I did. Not alone in that down here in BMenz, but your post makes me sad for what we could have had. What I strove for. What she couldn't "Girl Up" to do.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 11:20 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine is more than willing to do the bare minimum.
LIC is right, reading here does keep you down-you realize there are others out there who DO actually do it right, and it make me sad to realize what I don't have. Just last week my DD was telling me about having lunch at Chick-Fil-A with momma's cousin-but I insisted fWW has no family in this state besides one sister. I could see the confusion in my DD's eyes.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
LifeisCrazy
♂ Member
Member # 38287
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LIC, how long did it take for you to accept your wife's efforts?

Montreal - to be perfectly honest... it took until I could see that she was truly TRYING. Looking back it took us about 8 months before I was completely assured that the affair was, indeed, over and that she was in for the long haul.

Please note - that doesn't mean that everything was perfect, that she was falling all over me, or that I was completely at ease with the affair. Far from it. But there definitely came a time where I could see that a hurdle had been crossed.

[Just as a sidenote - about 8 months after Dday my wife and I took a trip down to Jamaica. No kids. We did absolutely nothing for a week but reconnect, have some drinks, talk, lay on pool floats and really get back to who we are. We look back on that trip now as a turning point in our reconciliation.]

Once I was assured that she was "all in" then it took me another 6 months or so to start moving past the affair. And, to be fair, there are still times when I get down about it. In particular, if I'm by myself and my head starts heading down the rabbit hole I can get myself worked up. But I am able to drag myself out of it (usually) and, if not, my wife looks me in the eyes and makes sure that I know where we are and how far we've come.

Montreal, I'd like to ask you a question - what can your wife do to make up that extra 10%?? Ask yourself that honestly. Is there really anything possible? Or is that 10% really on YOU? Can you move toward her and make that last hurdle easier?

She has to overcome her shame and anxiety and be able to talk to me when there is a problem. She has to be sexual and touching more like once a week than the current once (or less) a month.

ATS - this SO resonates with me!! My wife has had such a difficult time trying to heal herself from the guilt and the shame. It is a weird thing to be the one encouraging HER to move past it - because I know that WE can't heal until we're both healed.

In regard to the sex - this was a huge one for me. I needed more - more variety, more intensity, more passion, more frequency. It took a while for me to learn to talk - to simply communicate - and tell her what I needed. I had to tell her that this was absolutely imperative for me and she soon began to see that SHE needed to move on this, that part of my healing and ongoing happiness required a change to our sex life. It is so much better now that it's hard to believe.

Anyway - hope you guys have a good day...


"Pain is temporary. Quitting is forever."

Posts: 127 | Registered: Jan 2013
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The sad truth is that some few WW get it and will go all out to regain the M. IMO most dont though. Just look at the numbers here at SI and compare the # of remorseful WS to the # of struggling BS.

IMO for a WS to regain the M takes a extraordinary effort. A effort that goes well beyond their comfort zone. A effort where they put everything out there and risk themselves in order to make restitution.

IMO there is risk for the WS because in their head there are memories of things that they believe if we knew we would D them. Sharing those things is necessary for true reconciliation. And to achieve that they have to take that risk.

Basically the WS has to be *all in* on regaining the M. And from all the BS posting here that level of commitment seems very rare.

For those of us without a WW that is *all in* we quickly find that we cant rebuild a loving M on our own. We also cant make our WWs give a damn about us or even put in any real effort toward R.

Allot of us men want to keep the M intact because we dont want to loose our children. We dont want a OM in their lives posing as a *father figure*. We also dont want to loose all that we worked for taken from us. D is not fair to men who have been betrayed. I dont believe in *no fault* divorce when there has been betrayal.

So we stay in a unhappy M and make do with what we are given.

Like Mr.Kite I have carved out a separate life for myself. This isnt the life I had hoped for. But it is what it is. And it is the best I can do.

[This message edited by Razor at 11:56 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
ontheslope
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Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that there is more to it than just the 'all in' part, though.... there is a whole re-examination of the M as a whole, and of the partnership that was formed when you decided to marry, and of who that person is now.

Take me... My W is all in, in her own way. She wants the M. She wants me. She loves me, says I am the love of her life, she doesn't want to lose me, etc...etc...etc.... But... when I look long at hard at who she is now and who I am now and how we connect and how we get along and everything that goes along with being in an intimate relationship with another person, there is just so much that is missing.

So...I truly think that the keys need to be:

a) your W is truly 'all in' on the M
b) she is willing to do the work and meet your needs
c) you still love her deeply
d) you can accept what happened and move past it
e) (most important) you won't keep looking back and 'regretting' either what happened, or that you chose to stay

I think I've got a. I kind of have b, except she is battling depression and is moody and cranky and unhappy a lot. The rest?

Ugh.... I don't fucking know.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good points ontheslope.

So...I truly think that the keys need to be:

a) your W is truly 'all in' on the M
b) she is willing to do the work and meet your needs
c) you still love her deeply
d) you can accept what happened and move past it
e) (most important) you won't keep looking back and 'regretting' either what happened, or that you chose to stay

For me:
a) sort of. WW maybe all in insofar as she is able to be all in.
b) no.
c) ? I love her but feel the need to protect myself. WWs LTA was a deep *love affair*. Now that its over I am uncertain I am her first choice. She also continues to have poor boundaries with the men she works with. So while I love her I am unwilling to take the risk that comes with loving her deeply.
d) kind of. I admit that it happened and that there is nothing I can do about that. But I still have some resentment toward her.
e) again kind of. there are times when I regret my choice to stay. It was necessary for my sons. but I think I personally would be in a much better place had I D her right after Dday.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Montreal
♂ New Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Montreal, I'd like to ask you a question - what can your wife do to make up that extra 10%?? Ask yourself that honestly. Is there really anything possible? Or is that 10% really on YOU? Can you move toward her and make that last hurdle easier?

LIC, honestly I don't know. But then I'm just four months out, three if you count the TT. And by the same token, she is only four months out too. So maybe we're just not ready for all that yet.

What can she do? Why do I think she is not 100% in? Well the big one is that she says she wasn't happy, and that if she isn't happy in the future, if we can't get past this, then we have to accept that maybe this was a deal-breaker for us. She doesn't put a time-table on it or anything, but I take it almost like an implied threat, whereas she just says it's reality. Which I guess is true; if we're not happy, if this is going to be something that we just can't get past, then yes, we will divorce. But on the other hand, as the betrayed one I feel that she has forfeited the right to end the marriage, that she should be begging me to stay, sobbing in hysteria. She doesn't do that. Does she cry? Yes, when we talk about it. If we aren't talking about it, she seems fine. Except at night I suppose, where she sleeps as poorly as I do. She says she has nightmares every night, about me leaving her, about the kids turning on her, about me attacking her, or her (now dead) mom finding out and being ashamed of her. I know she can't sleep - I can't sleep right alongside of her - but is she really having those nightmares?

I guess I don't trust her pain just yet. Maybe I'm too wrapped up in my own pain to see hers. Or maybe it's just not there yet. I will admit it does make me... I don't want to say "happy" because that doesn't seem right, but it's the only word I can think of... it makes me "happy" when she is crying, because at least then I feel hope. Is that perverse or what?

Maybe we are just too soon into the process to be making these grand leaps towards each other. Maybe we still haven't hit bottom yet. I don't know.


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 50 | Registered: Sep 2013
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Since we're keeping score.

So...I truly think that the keys need to be:

a) your W is truly 'all in' on the M
b) she is willing to do the work and meet your needs
c) you still love her deeply
d) you can accept what happened and move past it
e) (most important) you won't keep looking back and 'regretting' either what happened, or that you chose to stay

a) She was always "all in", she just thought "all" included another guy "in" from time to time. She wasn't unhappy until I refused that arrangement.
b) Not so much until recently.
c) Despite everything, absolutely.
d) I thought so, until recently when the unresolved trauma's came roaring back to bite me on the ass.
e) Ditto.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Montreal,

Here is my take on this.

she isn't happy in the future, if we can't get past this, then we have to accept that maybe this was a deal-breaker for us.
How is her A a deal-breaker for her? This statement is a way to imply you need to get over it, and blame you if the M fails. It is stating you need to get over this so I can be happy.
I take it almost like an implied threat,
because it is.
whereas she just says it's reality. Which I guess is true; if we're not happy, if this is going to be something that we just can't get past, then yes, we will divorce.
and that is what she is banking on to shut you up and get you to fall in line.
about me leaving her, about the kids turning on her, about me attacking her, or her (now dead) mom finding out and being ashamed of her.
These are all very self-centered. It is all about her, and what she is going to lose. There is nothing in this about your pain, or what her A has cost you. It seems to me to be still a very wayward mindset. I can see why you might be hesitant to say that she is 100% there.

[This message edited by nomoreplease at 4:55 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well the big one is that she says she wasn't happy, and that if she isn't happy in the future, if we can't get past this, then we have to accept that maybe this was a deal-breaker for us. She doesn't put a time-table on it or anything, but I take it almost like an implied threat, whereas she just says it's reality.

I dont see how you could take this any way other than as a threat.

That said though none of us have the monopoly on deciding whether or not to D. Its a decision that can be made any time by either the WS or BS.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

if she isn't happy in the future, if we can't get past this, then we have to accept that maybe this was a deal-breaker for us.

Its an out clause. Basically she reserving the right that at anytime if she decides its just to much work to heal your pain, she's out. It a defeatist attitude. What she should really be saying is "We will survive, I love you, I will never do anything like that to hurt you again, and I will work for the rest of my life to do whatever it takes to regain your respect and love."

Now whether its possible to make things "right" is up for debate, but still she should be saying things along those lines to you.

Not that I'm much further out than you, but I will say I see my WW's thought processes making progress to these types of views almost weekly. So although she might not be saying those things now, its possible that eventually she will reach that point. Of course its also possible she never will. Wouldn't it be nice if they would just turn off the self-protection mode and turn on marriage-protection mode right on dday. She's definitely still in self preservation mode.


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:25 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What can she do? Why do I think she is not 100% in? Well the big one is that she says she wasn't happy, and that if she isn't happy in the future, if we can't get past this, then we have to accept that maybe this was a deal-breaker for us. She doesn't put a time-table on it or anything, but I take it almost like an implied threat, whereas she just says it's reality.

I am three years into what I think is a pretty good R. My wife said something like this a few weeks out from dday. She came back less than an hour later to apologize and say that she was in it no matter how long it took.

The thing here is that you wife is placing the responsibility of "Happy" on your relationship rather than herself - being happy in your relationship.

If that is her reality then think very hard about whether or not it is a reality you want to share. Because that is a vote of no confidence, not one of determination.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7116 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
LifeisCrazy
♂ Member
Member # 38287
Default  Posted: 8:20 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Montreal - I apologize for not realizing how early on you are in this process. I agree that it may simply be too soon for both you and your wife to have fully processed what has happened.

That being said, I am in complete agreement with both DR and SG. My wife also, at the outset, wasn't certain about what was going to happen. Hell, I didn't know from hour to hour if I was doing to beat her ass or slit my wrists.

However, as uncertain as we both were, it was pretty clear, pretty quickly, that neither of us were going anywhere. Part of that may have stemmed from the fact that despite the LTA they both knew that neither would leave their spouses. But either way, even through the fights, the name-calling, the horror that is discovery.... we both knew that we didn't WANT to be apart.

Your wife needs to make a pretty quick decision. For a long time I have been an advocate of strength from the outset, of establishing minimum demands that force the WS to make a decision. You cheat? You don't get six months to "think about it." Shit or get off the pot, as they say.

You need to consider the minimums of what you need.... lay them out to your wife..... and give a date. "This is it, honey." If she can't meet your minimum demands then there are much larger fish to fry and she needs to be on her own for a while in order to think about them. Maybe.... MAYBE..... you'll still be available for her to win you back.

It sounds like your wife needs to know where she stands with you. And remember, if she's unwilling to make that commitment then there's little reason to stay anyway.

Good luck!


"Pain is temporary. Quitting is forever."

Posts: 127 | Registered: Jan 2013
Distraut
♂ Member
Member # 38655
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Im happy for all you guys who are in various stages of R.It sounds tough I feel for you.I also feel if you have a family it deserves your best shot.I never wanted my kids to grow up in a broken home.My parents are still married after 49 years.I had friends in high school who went through the shit storm and I didnt even know what to say to them.
I didnt have the option of R so I took advantage of the Fog and rushed through the D.I got to keep my house(I already owned the property before M.I got custody of my DD14 and DS11.She gets them every other weekend from friday at 6 to sun at 6.She has only had them for three separate overnight visits since Apr.She sees them at their school she is a cook.So I guess thats enough visitation for her in her sick mind.
Thankfully she doesnt take my children around OM yet.
Anyway sorry to get off topic my point is after hearing of some of your struggles with R.Maybe Im better off not having the oportunity .At times I think Id give anything to have her want to R and give it 100% after owning her shit.I would like to think I would be strong enough to work past it.But I believe it would be like sending a green recruit into combat will he fire on the enemy or piss down his leg and cower in fear.
The farther out I get I know the possibility of my X ever coming back to the real world grows slimmer and slimmer.Most days I am confident I dont want her back.But both children have said they hate not having a mother.So given the opportunity tomorrow I cant honestly say what Id do.
Someone on another forum told me this early on "If your house is on fire you wont know if there is even a possibility of rebuilding the house until the fire is out."
Im moving on and working on me and so much better than I was 2 months ago but I still look at the blazing inferno and wonder if when the fire is put out there will be even a shred of a timber left.Either way I will do what I must do.
Sorry for getting OT

[This message edited by Distraut at 9:39 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]


Me47 BS
Her WW40
DD13
DS11
D Day 02/16/13
Married 15 years
divorced 04/02/2013
Moving on!

I asked her if she felt any remorse she said "I cry in the shower"


Posts: 120 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: midwest
Distraut
♂ Member
Member # 38655
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Once again sorry .My intent wasnt to derail the thread.I was triggering bad last night.Had to take DD14 to guitar lessons.They are in the town where XWW's affair took place.Where she now lives with POSOM .The whole town is a trigger for me.I started to post ablut that and all that other stuff came out.I felt as though I relapsed from the better place I was in.Im better today and it did feel good to get all that out.I may seek out IC.Although I feel I am progessing through this mess just slowly.I will try to stay on topic from now on.I guess I need to hear from those of you who found the strength to move on and are better off as a result.


Me47 BS
Her WW40
DD13
DS11
D Day 02/16/13
Married 15 years
divorced 04/02/2013
Moving on!

I asked her if she felt any remorse she said "I cry in the shower"


Posts: 120 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: midwest
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Distraut,

Mate, there is no such thing as getting this forum off topic! Post what you want or need to get out. It's what we are here for. Now, if you were posting about the virtues of knitting vs. crocheting, then that would be odd. Sometimes discussions go on for pages, sometimes just a single post. There are a lot of people who lurk here and pop in when something resonates with them, so you are always welcome to post whatever you need. It's not like our beer posts are on topic, but some levity every now and then seems to help.

And I highly recommend getting to IC.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I second the IC recommendation. True that it is not for everybody, but you won't necessarily know that unless you try.

And like Tred said, nothing in the BM thread is ever off topic.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
ascian
♂ Member
Member # 40304
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've checked in with IC a couple of times: once two days after the affair when I just needed someone neutral to talk to, and again recently.

The recent one was more of a spot check than being overwhelmed, and I'll probably continue with that every month or so for a bit even though I feel like I'm doing better than I expected 3 months ago. I think of it like checking in with a coach or teacher when you're practicing a physical skill on your own. Sometimes it takes another set of eyes, experienced eyes, to spot the small mistakes you're making in practice now that will lead to injury or poor performance later.

So my IC is those eyes, helping me correct small bad habits now (both on internal narrative things, and on relationship things) when they're easy to fix rather than 10 years from now when they're haunting me or my marriage.


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
Distraut
♂ Member
Member # 38655
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Guys.
Thats good to hear.I guess I have been leary of councilers in general.I think you have to be careful about who you say the word depression around.
I just filled out an aplication for a part time winter snow plowing job with my state .Ant there it was "have you ever been treated for depression".I guess they dont want guys out going berzerk commiting mass genocide with a plow truck.
And I am depressed at times but we all are.Especially those of us who have been run through the meat grinder by a WW.
As I said it helped to post and today is a better day!


Me47 BS
Her WW40
DD13
DS11
D Day 02/16/13
Married 15 years
divorced 04/02/2013
Moving on!

I asked her if she felt any remorse she said "I cry in the shower"


Posts: 120 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: midwest
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

YMMV I guess.

Me and WW tried several MCs. None could find their arse even using both hands. Basically there were book learnt and it showed.

After a few years I was still having trouble so I found a IC for me. These were group sessions. And low and behold it came out (indirectly) that the IC was a OM. I stopped going after that.

So I had to pull myself up by my boot straps. I read. which didnt help much. Mostly I thought and wrote in a journal. That helped allot. In a journal I can write things out and see it in print. I can think on it and work through it.

So keeping a journal worked for me. But as I said YMMV.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


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