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User Topic: What do you think?
1bigidiot79
♂ Member
Member # 40557
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Been going to new IC for a few weeks now and I'm starting to see the big picture a little clearer I think.

My mother was very strict on me growing up and I always feared disappointing her and feared the persona she created by the way the parented me. I wasn't afraid of her discipline so much as I was afraid of not pleasing her and letting her down.

Fast forward to married life and I live to try and please my wife. I am very fearful of disappointing her and find it very difficult to completely open up to her and be vulnerable to her with my faults because of this. This has lead to me creating a hypocritical image which is one of the things my BW is so angry about. Being fake.

Now what to do about it? I know I need to talk to her about this but she is still so angry and isn't ready to talk rationally about anything. I am currently giving her space at her request and we are basically just living our own lives in the same house.

Still working on why I feel the need to look at the pornography in the first place but IC has encouraged me to look into how I was physically loved in my childhood. My family is not the huggy, feely kind of family and my main love language is physical touch. I crave it from my BW and she has never been the touchy/feely type either. It bothers me and we have even had discussions about it to little or no results. IC suggested I could be looking at the pornography to try and compensate for the lack of intimacy that I feel and have a need for. If this is the case I know I have to recognize this trigger and go to my BW instead of coping in the wrong way.

Part of me thinks these are just excuses but part of me thinks this could really be what was happening. I'm afraid my wife will call this an excuse. I guess I need to try and talk to her and just pray we can have a civil and meaningful conversation. Am I on the right track here?


DDay 7/23/13
TT on 3/5/14 - Finally came completely clean
Finally working on making real changes in my life, one day at a time.

Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: United States
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you are on the right track. FOO issues really seem to be at the core of this for so many people. Your FOO issues sound very similar to my FOO issues. And you and I both cheated. Yet at the same time, there are millions of other people who have had similar FOO issues, who didn't cheat. That's the rub, right there.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's important to acknowledge how our upbringing contributed to our behavior, but it is not an excuse for our behavior. It certainly explains our proclivity for going down a certain path, though, doesn't it?

For me, personally, I think a portion of my behavior stemmed from rebellion against my folks' beliefs, and their lack of acceptance for who I am as a person. Yet instead of talking about this and openly acknowledging it, I stuffed my feelings down, and manifested them in self destructive behavior. All stuff that *I* did, nonetheless. Nobody held a gun against my head.

No matter how much you boil it down, there is still some selfishness there. Even if we're trying to fill a blank hole in our lives, the way we went about trying to get a fix for what was missing was selfish.

Hope that makes a bit of sense. Keep working on this, I think you are making some really good progress in the right direction.


Posts: 6107 | Registered: Dec 2010
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't put much stock in IC's.

I was born screaming loudly whenever I wanted something. I was born selfish and entitled, nobody had to work their magic on me to create a selfish and entitled person. No examination of my FOO is going to explain my behaviors of the selfishness and entitlement that led to my own affair.

I make choices everyday.
When to get up,
When & what to eat,
What to wear,
How fast to drive,
When to show up at my job,
How to treat others,
Etc., Etc., Etc....

I also have choices about viewing pornography,
Calling OW
Having an affair,
Learning how to have a great marriage,
Etc., Etc., Etc....


I can't afford the luxury of blaming others for my own choices. I'm more interested in making changes than I am in placing blame for them.

Diggin' up the bones of my FOO has never helped my marriage.

Just my .02


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I put a lot of stock in IC's, but only the good ones.

I want to talk about the conflict avoidance aspect of your post.

I am very fearful of disappointing her and find it very difficult to completely open up to her and be vulnerable to her with my faults because of this.

For my FWH, the people-pleasing and fear of reprisal was also a FOO issue that carried into adulthood.

The most toxic side effect of this was the daily practiced deceitfulness. Saying something to appease someone that wasn't true. Lying to protect himself was as common as breathing air after doing it his whole life.

The other problem is that this breeds resentment for something that NEVER gets addressed - another reason why relationships are so hard for him to muddle through.

For example:

"Do you want pizza for dinner tonight, Crazz?"

"Sure, Jrazz! Sounds great!" (All the while thinking about how he'd rather have Chinese food and is SICK of pizza and hasn't had Chinese in forever and it's his favorite but NOOOOOOOO we have to have pizza.)

Too afraid to cause conflict, he doesn't mention his alternate preference. Instead, he lies about being ok with pizza to "appease" me, even though I haven't made any demands. It was just a question. Later, he is short with me and when I ask what's wrong he snaps back nothing, now building resentment because I am "backing him into a corner" to try and talk something out.


Whereas I have treated him in no way that he should be "afraid" to disagree with me, he is completely conditioned to go along with whatever I say, and just quietly resent me for not presenting him with the solution he would prefer.

We're working on this through counseling, but this particular aspect of his healing is his alone to work on. And yours, from the sound of things.

You can't live your life being afraid of disagreeing with your wife. It's not honest, and it's not fair to either of you. There's a difference between a conversation and an argument. You have to feel the fear and do it anyway. My tagline helps me keep this in perspective.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:04 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)]


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16265 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
1bigidiot79
♂ Member
Member # 40557
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Jrazz. I realize now that I have been doing that our entire marriage. Maybe not so much in the small day to day stuff as you mentioned but always when I know it could cause a fight or cause her to be disappointed in me.

I don't want to use this as an excuse because just as Card said, ultimately we are all responsible for our decisions and they are ours and ours alone to make. I do think it helps to know why though and be able to recognize that is what is happening so I can better handle the situation in the future.


DDay 7/23/13
TT on 3/5/14 - Finally came completely clean
Finally working on making real changes in my life, one day at a time.

Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: United States
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Going through this with Crazz has actually been really eye opening for me. Taking the opportunity to look at myself and the behaviors I am carrying around with me has been really helpful.

It's not easy like a lightswitch - it takes a ton of practice something that we spent a lifetime building up - but it's possible.

Crazz takes a deep breath and disagrees with me on occasion now, and it's an amazing thing to see. I need to remember to acknowledge how hard that is for him and to make him feel safe to tell me what he's really feeling.


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16265 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Kiwigirl
♀ Member
Member # 36185
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi 1bigidiot79. Your post sounded so like my husband to me. Or what I imagine he thinks. He too is so afraid of disappointing me or getting it wrong that he sometimes behaves in a really self-defeating way because all I really want from him is authenticity. I know this comes from him and his FOO really but at times I feel really bad that someone feels that desperate about pleasing me. Like what kind of ogre am I if he feels like that?

I think it is a great thing that you can recognise and articulate the issues you see you have. That is such a good start to making changes. Have you shared this post with your wife? I know I would like to see this kind of insight from my husband. Sometimes sharing what you've written is easier than saying it. And reading it might allow her time to digest it and respond in time rather than in the midst of anger (which I know from experience can be fairly blinding)

Thank you for sharing.


BS - 36 (me)
WH - 34

D-Day 19 April 2012
Trying R


Posts: 118 | Registered: Jul 2012
1bigidiot79
♂ Member
Member # 40557
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kiwigirl, can I ask you a question?

You say that all you want from your husband is authenticity. My BW has said the exact same thing to me. My issue is not the physical act of cheating but rather use of pornography. My question is if this was the case for your husband as well and down the road he made the mistake of using it again, how would you react if he owned up to it and came and told you he screwed up and looked again?


DDay 7/23/13
TT on 3/5/14 - Finally came completely clean
Finally working on making real changes in my life, one day at a time.

Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: United States
breakingpoint
♀ Member
Member # 40963
Default  Posted: 4:19 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My husband and I are having the same issues in our marriage. We have been going through a vicious cycle of lying followed by discovery and drama for about five years.

For all of those years I have reacted very angry and downright attacking in hindsight. So I realize now that he could have never been honest with the stage I have set. So I am learning.

I am trying to realize that this isn't something that he is turning to because of my short-comings, its not an attack on me. And I know that rooted in this habit is a lot of secrecy and shame and that he beats himself up a lot over this. So lately I have started to think about it this way: he is beating himself up about, I am beating him up about it....in this dynamic he is the bad guy every time. And if this is rooted in shame, than how can he recover from emotional floggings from everyone involved?

Working on creating a safe place, but its hard to not insert my own feelings of betrayal.

I know for me, my husband opening up about this was very helpful in me seeing past the anger and tapping into my empathy and love for him.

Maybe your wife will be ready to share after some time.


Posts: 115 | Registered: Oct 2013
Kiwigirl
♀ Member
Member # 36185
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi again. Well pornography isn't my H's issue, it was a PA with someone he worked with but as an analogy, if he was to come and say he had slipped up and emailed her, or if he came to me and said, "I am really struggling right now, we are always fighting, and now there is this nice girl at work and She asked me out for coffee the other day and I didn't't go bit I thought about it" then I would be dishonest if I said I wouldn't be angry or hurt, but at least it would be out in the open. We could discuss it. I could say I was hurt and angry but I was glad he told me. We could talk about why when things aren't good with us, he would look at someone else for affirmation rather than talking to me. We could talk about why he felt things weren't ok with us. We could talk about what he wanted out of the relationship, how things make him feel. Etc etc. for me it is the openness, the discussion that is important.

Now, in the past I think the problem was he could never say he was unhappy with me. He just stuffed it down and resented me, sought other channels to make him feel good. I didn't know how he felt. I didn't know he was lying, that most of what he said was just what he thought I wanted to hear, a sort of reflection of me really. And so I didn't know him at all, or what he wanted, what made him happy, what made us vulnerable as a couple. I only knew him as the picture he held up for me to see. Because he was too frightened to show me who he really was.

I don't want to be married to an idealised image, i want the real person. So if being authentic includes him being able to share the ugly and the bad with me, then I want the authenticity no matter how difficult it might be to handle at the time. Because that is going to be the only way I believe we will build trust again.

However, that has required him to find the strength in himself to weather some anger at first and I suspect you may find you need to do the same. In the early days when emotions are raw, it is difficult to respond considerately and with respect for the other person opening up. But time and practice makes it easier.


BS - 36 (me)
WH - 34

D-Day 19 April 2012
Trying R


Posts: 118 | Registered: Jul 2012
Kiwigirl
♀ Member
Member # 36185
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry, 1bigidiot79. I am not sure I answered your question. I don't know how I would react. Maybe with some anger at first but deep down I would be pleased you told me. I might shout at you. I might come to you later and say I'm sorry I didn't react bettering the first place.

Then again, maybe I would handle it better than you and I think I will.

My advice, be brave enough to try. Baby steps, it is hard, it might get harder and uglier at first but it will get easier in the end. And you will know you tried your best


BS - 36 (me)
WH - 34

D-Day 19 April 2012
Trying R


Posts: 118 | Registered: Jul 2012
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, October 16th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kiwigirl makes an excellent point. Whereas BS's may not appear to take confessions very well in the moment, it is a million times better than making a discovery. I had to learn how to let Crazz know that I appreciated him coming to me with uncomfortable topics. It's a really healthy thing for you both to work on as a team.


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16265 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
mse89
♂ New Member
Member # 40223
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I sympathize with your FOO history. My feeling the need to get approval resulted in deep insecurity for me. I see many behaviors that allowed me to avoid unpleasant emotions around approval/rejection. Porn was one way of avoiding the emotional risk rejection. The passive/aggressive streak was avoidance of that fear of disapproval.

Not having the solid base of knowing unconditional love from FOO is rough. Dealing with the underlying insecurity issue was really important for changing me and being there for my BS.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Aug 2013
lostmylight55
♂ Member
Member # 33517
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1bigidiot79, I can relate to what you have posted.

I was exactly what Jrazz and mse89 described. I was fake in every part of my life. I put on a different persona depending on the audience. The conflict avoidance came from my FOO which lead to passive aggressiveness and a victim roll in my M and life in general.

IC suggested I could be looking at the pornography to try and compensate for the lack of intimacy that I feel and have a need for.

I hid my porn addiction from my BW for 20 years and I can honestly say, there is no intimacy in pornography. It doesn't fill any intimacy void, it strips away intimacy in a relationship.

My porn addiction had nothing to do with my BS, she didn't have an issue with porn but I felt the need to hide the fact that I was constantly viewing it. I actually shamed my BS about her viewing pornography even though I was the one with the addiction. I believe that was linked to my past, where I was afraid of being judged by or disappointing my mother, among other things.

If this is a problem for you, I recommend looking into IC that deals specifically with addictions, especially porn addiction, or a CSAT.

You say that all you want from your husband is authenticity. My BW has said the exact same thing to me. My issue is not the physical act of cheating but rather use of pornography. My question is if this was the case for your husband as well and down the road he made the mistake of using it again, how would you react if he owned up to it and came and told you he screwed up and looked again?

1bigidiot79, can I ask, why are you asking this question?

I understand your W is very anger and of course our spouses want us to be honest and authentic with them. But this sounds like you are looking to give yourself an out. IMO, if you are going to IC to appease your W or smooth over your relationship and not doing the work for yourself, than you will have a much harder time correcting your behavior.

It's good you are recognizing how your past has affected you.


My Boundaries are firm: Trespassers will be shot on sight.

Posts: 86 | Registered: Oct 2011
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

bigidiot - I had to tell my husband I had sex with two guys. I knew it would crush him so badly he might never recover.
Yet, I had no right to keep that from him.
Integrity - doing the right thing, letting go of the outcome. Anything else is controlling a person into staying married to you. Do you really want to be a person who does this?


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

ôSlide the weight from your shoulders and move forward. You are afraid you might forget, but you never will. You will forgive and remember."


Posts: 4456 | Registered: Dec 2010
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, October 17th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Integrity - doing the right thing, letting go of the outcome. Anything else is controlling a person into staying married to you.

Exactly

Approval seeking/rejection avoiding..... IMO, It's just another way to say I'm 'selfishly' entitling myself to be dishonest in order to feel good.


Porn use - hiding/avoiding disapproval, etc...... IMO, It's just another way to say I'm 'selfishly' entitling myself to be dishonest in order to feel good.


My porn use, my affair, my indifference, my approval seeking, etc..... I didn't want to have integrity, I just wanted to feel good. Sometimes I even kicked and screamed like the infant I once was.

When I viewed it honestly; It wasn't difficult for me to accept that all my bullshit was just that, bullshit.


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
Topic Posts: 16

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