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User Topic: Dr. Laura fans ??
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Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, October 18th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok - what would she say about women masturbating while watching porn and thinking about men other than their husband? What's good for the goose is good for the gander?

Not every woman/wife is sexually passive.


P.S. There are many SAHM on this site who got divorced (not by choice) that are now supposed to jump into the job market after many years without working. That hasn't worked out so well for them. In a perfect world where everyone behaved as they should it would be safe for someone to give up their career to take care of the children, but the cold truth is that can come back to haunt you.

[This message edited by Newlease at 1:43 PM, October 18th (Friday)]

Even if you can't control the world around you, you are still the master of your own soul.

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Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, October 18th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dr. Laura... Isn't that the lady who helped break up her current husband's first marriage? According to wikipedia (who uses the words "affair" and "infidelity" far less than I would wish when calling people out), he was a married father of three children, and he left his family to begin living with her.

Had she been remorseful, I might ponder her advice. But she hasn't been even remotely, and her poor advice reflects that.

True. All true.

I believe she was also married to her first husband at the time.

Her present husband (then AP) took nude pics of her and they are now on the internet. You can Google them and see them.

She is a phony shock jock, nothing more.

Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.

Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
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Default  Posted: 7:21 AM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

True. All true.

I believe she was also married to her first husband at the time.

Her present husband (then AP) took nude pics of her and they are now on the internet. You can Google them and see them.

She is a phony shock jock, nothing more.

I find this comment surprising.

I have listen to this show enough to know I think she is somewhat rude.. no patience with people.. judges way to quick.. interrupts people.. not so tactful her own behaviors piss people off.

Some pretty dumb people call in that show and it is very entertaining.. I suppose the "shock" part that is so entertaining.

But to then take that as.. She has poor or no values.. A hypocrite because of her past. But she does not promote or practice poor values today... by her words.

I would like to believe most people learn from mistakes and I think she did. People change.

what would she say about women masturbating while watching porn and thinking about men other than their husband?

That would be a very interesting question.

It would be an interesting question for women here too. Anyone?

I know this.. Men do. But in the men's group I was in where they opened up.. MOST ALL during watching porn together these men focused ONLY on their wives.. not the video. There is something visual about a genital to men. I have read men generally are visual and women mostly not. However, in self-sex, these same men focused on that woman in the porn or in fantasy, the woman they had it about. Some even fantasized about sex the had with their own wives including situation from a past experience or made up one.

One man I know talked about him walking in on his wife masturbating. Rather than getting all bent out of shape, he asked if he could join in.. I suppose this article could be about that kind of openness.

Imagine this? If you would tell your spouse.. Please come to me when you feel the need to masturbate. The real thing will be far better. Will that work? Not if one person has his sexuality and she has a different sexuality. Oh now the compromise..

A point about pre marital sex.. is it damaging or not? Men self-sex to earlier premarital sex with former GF or casual sex. How healthy is that? Does man then have enough self control when the Facebook pops up with that old GF flirting again? He cheats and he is broken.. right? No self control.. A Dr. Laura value is to have self control... be mature.

Dr. Laura is not perfect in my eye yet the most of the advice she gives is very valuable. Of course, I am not so perfect myself.

Her value is not to "shack up" before marriage. It will delay a commitment... it is commitment avoidance.. no vow means cheating is ok. I suppose you can commit without a vow. Why the heck then do we even get married? Oh the comfort of those famous words.. "I DO".

I have a value that a Marriage does mean something. Commitment. If you don't that is your choice. I am not angry at your choice. What is right for you is not right for me.

I could list all her values.. My bet is most everyone here would then agree with them.

A given in life.. things change and people change.

Posts: 2682 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just Googled Dr. Laura and got a website that listed what Dr. Laura says v.s. what Mrs. Slessinger does. If she really believes the advice she gives on the radio and in books, she is schizophrenic, because she doesn't follow her own advice.

She is an entertainer, making money. Some people believe her magic tricks, while others know they are fake and just enjoy the show. I am neither of those people, I just walk on by and ignore her.

Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

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sinsof thefather
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Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She is an entertainer, making money. Some people believe her magic tricks, while others know they are fake and just enjoy the show. I am neither of those people, I just walk on by and ignore her.

Times two. Even though sometimes it is quite hard to just ignore it when I hear her opinions - if I want my blood pressure to remain stable - it's probably best I do.

...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1880 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
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Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My opinion of her has always been she's a kook from pillar to post.

When you put someone on a pedestal, they quickly learn two things. The view is mighty good from up there, and it is a fine vantage from which to kick.

Posts: 183 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From: Hawaii
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Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But to then take that as.. She has poor or no values.. A hypocrite because of her past. But she does not promote or practice poor values today... by her words.

I would like to believe most people learn from mistakes and I think she did. People change.

Most people that learn from their mistakes are a bit more compassionate when speaking with someone making the same mistake. Dr. Laura refuses to even acknowledge that she once did these things, let alone not condemn those currently engaged in such behavior. That is why she is so hatable.

Regarding porn - it can very much be an issue. To claim it is 'fantasy' in all cases is simply wrong. It can and often does escalate. It is voyeurism, and it most definitely objectifies women. If the man has the mental capacity to handle this and not take it any farther, then no harm no foul. But, when he starts taking pictures of women on the street, or collecting pictures of women of all sorts in pictures that they did not know were being taken, it has escalated. The man no longer views women in the real world as people - the objectification has moved beyond porn. Or, for the sex addict, it moves from visual to chat rooms to live women.

Porn can be just a quick escape, or it can be a dangerous gateway. All possible outcomes should be considered.

And Dr. Laura is as judgmental and hypocritical as they come. She was a WW, so no wonder she tells women if their husbands cheat it's their fault - it justifies her own behavior. Blame the victim. How lovely. Anything she says is out the window as soon as she says things like that imo.

The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
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Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That woman is a living testament to the powers of good marketing. She could probably insist that she's vegetarian while eating a double cheeseburger and people would buy into it.

She's a remorseless cheater who shacked up with a married man for almost a decade. I'd say screw her but apparently she has that covered already.

"You have insulted my footwear."

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solus sto
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Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As women, we want to believe that we are the only vision our husband sees when he thinks about sex or masturbates.
With all due respect, trynhard, Dr. Laura really doesn't speak for me. She doesn't speak for any woman I know.

I never harbored illusions that my husband thought only of me. I didn't resent that he didn't.

I entered our relationship and marriage adventurous and open-minded and free-spirited.

I had NO problem with porn. I enjoyed it with him sometimes.

And frankly, when I masturbated (gasp! women masturbate!), no--I wasn't only thinking of my husband. Why would I expect him to only think of me?

(I REALLY hate generalizations made about women by women who hate other women or men who...well, may ADORE women,but simply have no concept of how women think because, well--they're not women!)

The thing is, Dr. Laura's off-base. For some people, porn is fine. The extent of the "trouble" it causes may be SO's insecurity. (I might argue that, if one partner has an issue with it, its use should be limited ---perhaps not SECRETIVELY, because I'm not keen on secrets--but done discreetly. Or that if a GF or wife has a REAL problem with it, that its use be halted because, really--what man wants to cause his partner pain for the momentary pleasure afforded by images of another woman (I mean,imagination is pretty good, right?) Note that that question presupposes that a man views his wife or SO as a partner, and therefore the relationship a collaboration rather than a parent-child, or you-can't-make-me sort of thing in which, unfortunately, unwittingly and unwillingly many of us find ourselves embroiled with man-children who seem to prefer adolescent rebellion to a mutually rewarding relationship. But I digress...)

My point is this: There are scads of women who are NOT threatened by porn.

A subset of us gets bitten ROYALLY in the ass for this. How? Because our SOs, our husbands, our BFs, the men purporting to be our partners are anything BUT what they promised to be. They get sucked into a morass that creates genuine relationship problems. They come to prefer the easy-rocks-off, impersonal, no-need-to-perform-or-meet-anyone-else's-needs of masturbation to porn to a real sexual relationship.

It happens a lot more than you think.


I can tell you now, in hindsight, that I was sexually abandoned when my now 25-year-old was 3. There were brief spates of sexual activity. After our youngest was about 3 (sensing a pattern here?), I was led to believe my husband was "too sick" for sex. (He has serious heart disease and meds that also affect performance. Unless he's alone or with another woman, which is far more thrilling, that stranger-sex or near-anonymous sex with someone who only knows about you what you wish to share).

Ever laid in bed wondering whether your partner would join you? When---or if--you'd have sex again, ever?

Ever laid in bed knowing your partner preferred masturbation to sex with a real, willing, adventurous partner?

Ever watched that "partner" (who by then really was anything but a partner) escalate---so that intimacy with REAL people became too threatening--until the "sure thing" of masturbation (or its various forms---such as strip clubs, lap dances, even stranger sex, which is near-anonymous, exciting, and poses no threat --well, except to the health and welfare of the spouse/GF to whom diseases are delivered)--because there is NO expectation of emotional intimacy, something which he has become afraid of (if in fact he was ever able to experience it in the first place--my husband was not, but I did not realize this for many, many years)?

I didn't think so.

And I don't think the adulterous Dr. Laura has been in those shoes either--she has tended to be on the Other Woman side of the coin. She's been the strange married men get off with while their wives (who she blames, incidentally) waited at home for the husbands who had sexually abandoned them.

I have no problem with porn.

I have a problem with adulterous "doctors" (whose doctorates are NOT in anything related to human behavior or psychology) blaming women for their prudishness when, in fact, she has absolutely no foundation for this claim, and no insight WHATSOEVER (as an unrepentant OW) to the damage done by men to the women they purport to love.

My husband may have once loved me--at least as much as he was capable.

I never curtailed his porn use, or even complained about it (unless it was where our kids might see it). I did object to strip club visits and lap dances, because it nearly bankrupted us. Funds we could ill afford were spent, and somehow, I was to blame for that, as well.

Don't assume Dr. Laura has the first clue about how most women think. She's misogynistic as they come.

[This message edited by solus sto at 9:41 PM, October 19th (Saturday)]

BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

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Default  Posted: 7:50 PM, October 19th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She's misogynistic as they come.
Great post, solus sto. Agree with everything you posted, especially the quote above.

BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson

Posts: 9799 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
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Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, October 20th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


What you can't see is me giving you a standing ovation. I second everything you wrote.

I never expected to be the only woman my husband thought about or was attracted to. I just hoped I'd be the only one he'd act it out with.

"Dr." Laura knows only what one woman thinks and that woman is a serial, remorseless OW. I'm saddened that she's able to make money off her sensationalist drivel.

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." ~Homer Simpson

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Default  Posted: 6:29 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hear, hear

BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

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Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I didn't have much of a problem with porn until my xh had to view it a good 30 min before hitting the bedroom with me AND had to have it on, sound included, during.... I didn't have to look at the tv and didn't. But I would turn down the sound / he would turn it up / I would turn it down again / he would turn it up again. It became a huge turn OFF for me. I didn't need a 3rd party in on our fun and games. Apparently, he did.

BW: 59
XH: 60
Married 34 yrs, LIBerated: 2/17/11
MOW: 50 (she said she wanted a sugar daddy; xh said, "I'M HIM!")
Actions ALWAYS have consequences. Too bad cheaters don't consider the consequences BEFORE they create so much damage.

Posts: 504 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Missouri & Massachusetts
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Default  Posted: 8:30 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After reading this thread, I have done some research on Dr. Laura. (I know, "Get a life!" right?)

Anyway, I had always thought she was simply an extremely conservative person, and I am not - so I thought this was why I never "clicked" with her. (Come to think of it, though - Dr. Phil is also quite conservative, but I enjoy his perspective on numerous issues.) Hmmm...

But after what I have read - if 50% of it is true - I cannot believe that she has such a substantial following.

Her stance on infidelity is quite disturbing to me - especially in light of HER personal experience with it.

But equally disturbing was her comment to a woman of color who called into her show, regarding her interracial marriage. She apparently used the "N" word many times during the exchange.

This goes beyond point of view, or conservative vs liberal. This is downright despicable. At least to me.

Of course I have a biracial child, and this comment alone negates her influence and existance in my life!

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 8:32 AM, October 21st (Monday)]

"Noone can make you feel inferior without your concent." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy

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Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My opinion about Dr. Laura: She's just one more hypocritical talk radio personality selling an extremist philosophy to gullible people. Just another cult figure making big bucks off vulnerable segments of the American populace.

It's good to be wary of any one person who thinks they have all the answers in life. In a way, that's why SI is so great - all of us, "right" or "wrong", have our own opinions about infidelity and how one should handle it, but the real value of SI for any individual member is having access to so many different stories and pieces of advice from many different people. It's a great sample of what worked and didn't work for a bunch of people, not just one so-called "expert", who may be biased because of her own experiences as a OW or her desire to keep making money by saying shocking things to hurting people. See also the "Wisdom of Crowds":

Me: BW, 39, Him: WH, 43; married 9 years, together 13 years
DDay:July 2013; EA progressing to a PA
APs: ex-"friend" & her enabling polyamorous husband
Status: Dual-income-no-kids, 2 cats, taking it day-by-day, married till we're not

Posts: 61 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Florida
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Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

solus sto.. I really like your post.
I respect your value that it is OK to view porn. I do believe that value can be healthy given the right people. Some people also have the value of being “swingers.” IMO, I can respect that value too if that is for them. If you believe this value is off base.. that is your value.
My therapist says protect you. Those are values that come with risk.
And the odds are not good in today society that if you allow yourself to go down that path, people seek, desire, have this inner feeling of curiosity, and when placed in situations of high risk, a person with these values will likely act on it. It takes a man or woman with great inner strength not to act. It then become one of the reasons people cheat.
My therapist will also say that since you give permissions to behave this way, in a deep way, your spouse will give themselves permissions. A good behavior has something to do with connections of two becoming one and always keeping it that way. And sex is very primal. Men deep inside have this want and need to spread seeds. It is every man’s battle. This is a reason.

Everyone can make their own choice on what my therapist says.. I believe him. I have also heard Dr. Laura say something similar.

she has tended to be on the Other Woman side of the coin

I see it a bit differently.
I know this.. Dr. Laura seems to always lean toward you leaving a spouse who cheats. She will tell people to kick them out, move home to mom.. take the kids.. A value we all agree with right?

If someone stays.. she will then take them down a path of personal responsibility. OK what did you do or not do that influenced your spouse to not be happy? And this is where people get most offended. It comes off as a blame game and NOTHING ever gets solved by blaming.

In the beginning of grief, the shock is so powerful our own ego’s and self-esteem is completely destroyed. To then be told your “ influence” is something that needs to be changed and it takes us down a further paths of misery. We comfort those in shock with saying.. It is not your fault, they are broken.. etc.. I understand completely. It is so we can build them back up, not tear them down further.

Fact is, we did not make that choice. Thus, no, in no way it is our fault. But to think we did not have some sort of influence is usually NOT true either. We are all not perfect people.

There are reasons people have A. To point them out is not a bad thing and I tend to think Dr. Laura is trying to point them out so YOU know what to do or not do so you do not jeopardizes yourself into the future so you won’t feel misery.

Men cheat
-because the are not being sexually fulfilled. (So you make sure you fill your man’s sexual needs)
- Revenge (So you behave in ways he won’t want revenge)
- Feel that need they are still attractive (so you make your man feel attractive everyday)
- Just could not say, “NO” (that primal need to spread the seed.. Not much can be done but make this man no longer part of your life or you mix it up somehow “forever”)
- She disgusts you (So you behave in ways not to nag, control, manipulate.. etc)
- Lost love (so you make sure you be quality so they don’t lose the love)

Women cheat..

- Not enough sex (So she must find ways to influence him to want to have sex; if mismatched, you make them no longer part of your world)
- Self-esteem.. (An internal condition or issue.. You seek that endless approval.. It can be exhausting for a man to build up his woman but it can be done with words, actions)
- Revenge/payback for past wrongs (So behave stellar in the first place)
- Lack of intimacy (men often have no clue how to behave intimately, LEARN IT, make sure your man gives it to you in openness and conflict him if you don't get it)
- Feeling neglected/ignored/underappreciated (Men must behave in ways a woman does not ever feel this way; do not bury the feelings.. insist on it.. to the final ultimatum)
- Your emotional withdrawal ( A man must never allow a woman to retreat.. He brings on conflict to correct it.. or makes this woman no longer part of his world)
- Bedroom boredom ( A man must be different, creative, romance, place his woman in the mood…with newness)
- Exit strategy (If a woman disqualifies you, A man does this on his own with his own bad behaviors. FIX YOURSELF)
- Revenge for your cheating (You should not have cheated yourself)

I know Dr. Laura’s message.. Stop blaming others and take personal responsibility. And sometimes that may mean making your spouse no longer part of your world because YOU picked the wrong person. Pick wisely next time and be nice. Be strong.

I can value someone who cheated and changed to know what we BS need to change about ourselves.

Forgiving.. Sometimes we don’t understand forgiving. People must forgive themselves after evil so they can be most healthy.

If we look at Dr. Laura, she has forgiven herself. When you forgive yourself, you admit wrong doing and let it go. You do not make yourself guilty by bringing up the past keeping the record of wrong. You accept you did wrong and the final phase is in your heart. I am not going to discuss it because it is no longer a factor in my life.

I forgive Dr. Laura. That means I do not make her feel guilty. I do not remind her of her sin. I accept it.

I also know the sins I do may not be forgiven. It is not me to decide others forgiving me. If someone does not forgive me, that is there right. It does not mean I should not forgive myself. I say.. I am not going to discuss it. That is all I can do. That part of my life is done, over. I have forgiven my wrong.

Funny thing.. I have heard Dr. Laura mention to infidelity as something so hard to forgive, just don’t. But don’t stay around in misery. Have strength and leave. Strong is good. Be strong. Don’t pick a man or woman like you did the first time and move on in life.

I notice this too.. When someone disagrees with her values.. She will say.. OK, then do what YOU want I cannot help you. That comes off as rude but is it?

It is because they both have mismatched values. She believes her values are better than your values. She can try and explain her values.. but many times she cannot make one think about them.

People have a hard time changing. Values are most difficult to change when our parents have taught us.. these values become part of us.. habit..

Peace to all.

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:56 AM, October 21st (Monday)]

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Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ trynhard

Sorry, but your post just make me

You can't MAKE your spouse not cheat. If they are unhappy in the M, there are MANY other behaviors they can perform. The BS is UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES responsible or at all to blame for the WS CHOICE to cheat. NOT. AT. ALL.

Can there be problems with the M? Sure. But problems in the M do not make you cheat any more than being out of money MAKES you rob a bank. There are plenty of other HEALTHY responses to that situation.

Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 25 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 30
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

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Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The second type of cheater isn’t “bad,” they simply may be going outside the marriage to have their needs met. Now, I want to make one thing perfectly clear: I’m not saying that there’s any excuse for someone to have an affair. Affairs are bad and there is no justification for breaching your vows. All I’m doing is giving an explanation for why some people have them.

I can’t tell you how many times callers on my show have told the lie, “My spouse’s affair came out of nowhere and took me completely by surprise.” I say “lie” because after a bit of questioning, they admit about 99.8 percent of the time that there were problems:

“He complained that we weren’t having sex.”
“She complained that I never listened or helped around the house…”

The bottom line: their spouse wasn’t being fed.

That's from her own blog.

She is a fraud as far as I am concerned. Her status as a Doctor has absolutely nothing to do with her money making schemes. Her hypocrisy is not something I'm interested in forgiving and she has never taken real responsibility for her behaviors. She is an insult to WS everywhere who do take responsibility for their actions and work to being the people they want to be.

She is a blame shifting, disingenuous, racist ignorant adulterer. Actions, not words, and all she does is peddle words that she doesn't live by.

"You have insulted my footwear."

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Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

trynhard, I think you're trying to generalize from too little data, and it doesn't work.

You start by seeming to accept that there are many valid ways to live life, but then you say we all accept the value of leaving an unfaithful partner. I don't accept that and never did. (Don't get me wrong. IMO, D is a valid and moral response to infidelity; it's just not the only one.)

Since we're using religious terms, forgiveness of sin generally requires repentance. Most of us would say that repentance - a type of remorse - is a matter of actions more than words. Laura gets very, very little of my attention, so I could easily have missed it, but her actions that I've read about simply don't say 'repentance' or 'remorse' to me. I really wonder if forgiveness of Laura is premature.

Laura takes a position of 'I'm OK. You're not. Other people are OK if they agree with me.' My speculation: She invites her listeners to pile on to the objects of her disapproval. I think a lot of people pile onto her targets because they think their choice is to be part of her mob or to become one of her targets. As I say, that's just speculation.

WRT values, I suspect she chooses hers to serve her own convenience. That's not the type of advisor I'd rely on.

fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

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Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, October 21st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OW always want the BS to leave. Then they can have the WS to themselves. It's worked for her so far.

I have no use for her, at all. She is a complete hypocrite. So her ideals aren't bad - but she doesn't follow them, so what difference does it make?

The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

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