That's what WH said quietly to me this morning during our long morning hug. It had been a tradition of ours to start every work day with a long hug before he gets in the shower. Even during the A.
I so want it to be a better year.
Our NYE was low key. We went out to dinner at the restaurant where WH's brother is a waiter. Over the past year I'd wanted to go there but WH was avoiding it. As it turns out that's probably because that's where BIL saw WH with OW.
BIL actually ended up being our waiter that night, which is always weird but kind of fun at the same time. I was able to chit chat with BIL about normal family things.
I kept the snark to a minimum but I snapped a couple of times. WH made a comment about how I've gotten better and better to hang out with over the years, and I got in a dig about how he changed OW's politics, taught her how to use public transportation, and convinced her to be a less picky eater: "Did you not realize the irony of teaching your mistress to act more like your wife?"
But I zipped my lip after that one. When we got home we kind of dozed on the couch and woke up a few minutes past midnight! Oh well. It was good to see him not grab his phone right at midnight. In fact it sat unattended the rest of the night.
We spent New Year's Day at home and I made a proper traditional Southern New Year's Day meal of hoppin' john with black eyed peas, greens, and cornbread. Another tradition, one we missed out on last year. I'll take all the good fortune I can get!
Here's to a better year for all of us in the LTA family.
si was a lifesaver for me....finding out that your spouse has betrayed you in itself is traumatic, overwhelming and probably for most of us the most hurt we have ever felt in our lives...finding out that the affair was "long-term" puts a spin on it that has us spinning within.....overwhleming cannot begin to desribe the feelings
for all the newbies: take care of your physical body first, that means eat and drink....not always easy to do
next: begin to heal your heart by taking care of your spirit....nourish your spirit with activities that make you feel good about you...whether its getting a mani-pedi or going fishing....feed the soul.....
and finally allow yourself TIME:
time to decide what you want to do
time to choose your path
time to heal
time to line up your ducks
time to learn how to find a new normal
time to learn how to live with what you have learned
time to finish putting the pieces of what was your life back to together
time to finish investigating and finding out all there is
for some, time is not always given on choices...the ws will make some of those for us, either by not meeting our new requirements or making some of the choices for us, like leaving....
if you are given the luxury of time, some of our ws's want to work on "r".....take it....do not make any hasty choices and always prepare for the worst and line up the ducks in the event of the worst.....use the time to your advantage if you are able....do not let the time just pass if you can help it...and ...and this is a big and....sometimes we are so overwhelmed and blindsided by what we have just learned we DO let time pass...doing nothing but just surviving....and for some of us,....its all we can do for a bit and sometimes it feels like its all we can do forever...but this is important...IT IS NOT FOREVER IF AND ONLY IF YOU CHOOSE OTHERWISE...
allow yourself time to girieve as well...grieve for the relationship that was lost, the relationship you thought it was and for the marriage you believed you had......and do not lose yourself in the grief.....its a great start that you are here on si....a site for healing, a site for information, a site for help, a site that for some of us can be lifesaving
and there is a saying...."when people show you who they are, believe them"....when you can "see", believe what you "see" and not what you "hear"
which leads to that other famous saying
"ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THEN WORDS"
those sayings will help you decide....which i will reitterate....take your time deciding if you are able...it the decision to stay or go has been made for you...then take the time to get your bearrings and forge ahead...always forge ahead.....
HAPPY NEW YEAR TRIBE!!!!
AND it will be a better year if you decide to make it one, and make all your choices to reflect it.....which is sooo much easier said then done....but this is important it CAN BE DONE!!!!....even is your ws is making all the wrong choices....YOU CAN STILL MAKE CHOICES!!!!.....have your list ready of what you now need and require and do yourself a big favor and stick to it....
and finally put yourself in ic, if contemplating the marriage...mc as well....
I belong here because the affair was longer than my marriage. I gave a chance for R but he procrastinated, continued to let me down and hurt me, and wasted the opportunity. I filed for divorce and now he is making an effort. It is hard so I came here for strength. Should I have waited longer (4 months?)? Would it change anything? The only things he has done right since dday are to wear his wedding band and NC the OW as far as I know. Otherwise it has been....
I'm sad. I don't want to get divorced and I want to believe him but he has lied to my face for 3.5 years. How could he be telling the truth now?
Actions speak louder than words, but to see actions I have to let him back in.
I'm not saying you are wrong to file…but keep in mind you can always withdraw the proceedings if the two of you turn things around.
[This message edited by badmedicine at 11:14 PM, January 5th (Sunday)]
The only things he has done right since dday are to wear his wedding band and NC the OW as far as I know.
This is not much of an effort, and it concerns me that the recent changes may be in response to wanting to avoid the D as opposed to wanting to deal with his A-crap. There is often a lot to fix in the perceptions, thoughts, and responses to stress in a WS, and perhaps more in the WS of a LTA. With the LTA WS you will often find an attachment disorder, a personality disorder, an addiction, something that allows them to persist in betrayal for so long. They can continue to betray us the BS and live with themselves. They can have an intense and physical relationship with OP, and yet the relationship does not continue to build in intimacy and intensity, rather it simmers along. In some instances, the WS prefers the lack of emotional intimacy with the AP compared to the emotionally intimate, and therefore more complex, relationship with the BS. As the scales fall from our eyes after dday, many of us see in our own relationships with our WS that defect that allowed them to be "comfortable" with a LTA. That defect, whatever it is, must be identified and addressed for there to be any hope of R and a healthier relationship.
So what else along with NC would you want to see from the truly committed WS? Has he identified, or does he attend IC for help in identifying what need(s) he was trying to meet with his A? If he does not learn what he was looking for in his A, he will not know what he needs to fix or guard against in the future. For example, if he had an A because he was lonely, why did he turn to OW when he was lonely? What will he do the next time he is lonely? He can work with an IC on his conflict avoidance and communication. Then you and he can practice talking, arguing, and fighting so that you both learn to disagree and even fight in a way the strengthens rather than erodes your M.
He can read Not Just Friends by Glass and Sexual Detours by Hines, and then discuss with you how these books do or do not apply to him and you. Do you have access to all of his email, cellphone, and chat accounts? If not you should.
All of these things are things that he can do and you can observe without having to let him inside much. These are all things he can work on himself while you work on your own healing. Then in 6 months or so when you are on your want to healing, you can look at how your WH is doing and decide if you want to continue with the D, or put it on hold to give him more time
He has a history of not owning his issues, not participating in IC/MC, you have no children together. I would look long an hard at what is the best path for you.
He has finally started going to IC and has told me some of the things he identified either on his own or with her. He read that "How to Help Your Spouse Heal" and we read "Too Good to Stay, Too Bad to Leave" together. I agree, I am wary that he is just trying to buy time to avoid D. I'm not sure what his motivation to stay married is (unless it is really that he wants to be with me and to repair our relationship) because I have already told the major players like our families, some friends, etc. Haven't told coworkers yet but I will....that has been more my own embarrassment not covering up for him. We don't have kids, as you noted. I guess I am trying to balance NC and filing for D with somehow evaluating his actions. I completely agree that words are meaningless or near-meaningless in this situation. But, I don't want to represent R to him when I've filed for divorce. I'm scared if I put it on hold I lose my control. I guess I can always start it back, but once you give in they know you will.
I guess it boils down to the fact that when I offered R I felt like he wasted his opportunity. Now he seems to be finally doing the right things but I had already made up my mind. I can't tell if these are really the right things and he is just slow (a real possibility...he is slow) or if this is just a front to slow divorce and manipulate me further. Thanks for reading and responding.
My situation is different in that my WH is SA, specifically "love addicted/love avoidant" and he has led his life as a very selfish, self centered way and has a very "surface level" relationship with everyone - including his own family members. I am probably the person to whom he is closest ever in his life…and our relationship had gotten to be very surface level. It is the kind of communication style both of us were used to in our own families. I will take responsibility for allowing that to be the case and not demanding better from both of us.
So it involved him confronting these FOO issues and realizing his way of dealing with things is not healthy and is hurting his kids (whom he claimed to love and prioritize as #1). It involved him breaking away from his AP - that took a couple of months in of itself. And after he ended it with her, it took a few more months for him to get over her. Yes, these things all hurt a lot. And during the course of it, there were lies to cover up lies and trickle truth and everything. But slowly, each week seemed to be a little better than the previous one. Even now, when I think about stuff that happened a month ago, I think wow…we've come a long way.
I was VERY close - I would say hours - away from pulling the trigger on the divorce. I think that is what finally got through to him. I remember talking to him one night and he said something like "then let's just get a divorce," to which I replied "you want a divorce? Let's go! I have an appointment already set up." I wasn't bluffing.
Or, accept that soem questions and regret are normal after you have made up you mind to D, but realizing you did make up your mind, stay the course and 180 him as you look towards your new life. We read more posts form folks who wish they had moved to D faster than we do folks who D'd too fast.
If you have not read them, I recomend the books Not Just Friends by Glass, and Sexual Detours by Hines for you reading list.
Around DDay, I mentioned (with much emotion) that this was "the last club I'd ever want to join".
Damn it still hurts. People are so inconsiderate, unthinking, hurtful things.
I belong here because the affair was longer than my marriage.
My WW's LTA was also of the category that it was even longer than our marriage. That certainly adds a different twist to it all. I am over a year out now and we are on a good path for R. It took my WW a bit to wake up and start doing the right things - about 6 weeks. While compared to your case 6 weeks doesnt seem long but for my case the LTA had ended 2 years prior to me finding out so my WW already had a head start dealing with it on her own.
He will look at me and say " I can never understand how you feel because I have never been betrayed like you have been...your pain will always be greater than mine"
Marion I actually felt the opposite from your situation after DDay. A really good friend of my WW found out about her LTA and was the one who told me about it. My WW felt betrayed by this friend for telling me for awhile after DDay. When my WW would make comparisons of her feelings of betrayal to those of mine it really bothered me to the point that it was pissing me off even more so than what she had done. In my mind I was feeling how dare you feel like this is anything close, how dare you feel like you can understand.
I dont present this example in that I think you should discount your feelings that he is not able to understand. I present them that if he told you the opposite that he did understand you may very likely have an issue with that answer as well. What happened happened, it is a shit sandwich no matter which way you try to look at it. There is no way a WS can turn back time and undo what they did. You can only more forward. I am glad to hear that your WH is doing all the right things, you just need to ask yourself if him doing all the right things is good enough for you.
[This message edited by ReunitePangea at 11:59 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]
Of course lots of times he took the time off anyway and spent it traveling with OW.
So yes, I'm triggering something fierce. And I'm angry because I should be happy to see my parents and two of my lifelong girlfriends for the first time in over a year, but instead I'm in a panic about what WH will do when left alone and I'm afraid I'm going to spend the entire trip paranoid.
WH says it's over. He says he's glad it's over; that he's done with the double life and loves me and wants to be with me. That it would make no sense for him to see OW.
Frankly, it didn't make sense for him to even have the A if he wanted to keep me so that argument doesn't hold a lot of water.
I don't trust WH one bit. I know it bothers him, but I truly don't trust him at all yet. I know he's going to MC with me. I know what he says. But for all I know he's just going through the motions to cake eat.
I feel like I'll need months of consistent actions from him before I can trust WH even a little.
womaninflux: I totally understand what you are saying about having "surface" relationships. I'm finally seeing that in my WH/NPD. He's very intelligent and can act as though he has empathy or compassion, but it's not deep. I don't think he's really capable to have a real intimate emotional relationship with anyone.
marion: Have you been to IC? It can help YOU sort out your feelings. From what you say, your WS does not get it. He probably thinks everything is swept under the rug and doesn't want to deal with it. With a LTA, it is best if the WS goes to IC too, but at this point, perhaps if you both went to MC, he may see that he needs IC too.
As for me, I'm hanging on by a thread. NPD came the day before New Year's and a few days later, NPD didn't close his facebook, so when I opened the computer there it is: messages to OW #2: I love you, I want to see you, etc Her telling him how much pain she's in because of the situation because he won't leave OW#1 or me. Him telling her that he never said he doesn't love others. She tells him to stop texting and chatting and yet she's the one who started up again.
So this bitch knows he has 2 W's, 5 kids and is complaining? She went after him and he told her immediately.
This is different, because with OW#1, he told me.
I'm sick to my stomach.
It's over, it's over it's over.
It's like I finally got that sharp slap in the face that was shouting WAKE UP!!!!
Just venting here, but what the hell is wrong with him???? Not only is he betraying me, but OW#1 and 5 kids. He feels so entitled. On the one hand it hurts like hell because I've allowed myself, talked myself into almost accepting the initial sitch because he was caught with the OC's etc. But
this is lurrrrve. Then, it helps in a very stupid, emotional way because OW#1 is not all that. But when it comes to NPD, no one will be all that.
There's so many things I want to do, but as my IC says, it's acting on "emotion mind". I have to be practical. There is no need to poke the bear and make things worse. I've waited this long. I'm so torn between writing out a Post Nup which I know he will not fight me on (was agreeable to it before) and then wait a few months and put in for a D.
or go for a straight separation agreement.
I am not dealing with a normal person. I am dealing with NPD, or at least one with so many traits that I don't believe he's within the bell curve of "normal". If I go for a separation agreement, I'll be in for the fight for my life, the other option may be the path of least resistance.
I keep going back and forth from such white hot anger and then wanting to collapse with such hurt and pain.
And so many people think he's so charming, nice and generous!
((honesttoafault))-I am so sorry you are hurting..thank you so much for taking the time to respond in the midst of what you are dealing with. We are both in IC and MC since the beginning. MC has been on hold the past year as we worked to survive. Maybe it is time to actively revisit that option.
I wish I could do something to help your situation. You clearly don't deserve to be in this position. Many prayers to you as you work your way through this difficult time...
Wishing you peace.
ReunitePangea my WH had the opposite of a head start. He didn't really get to decide because OW emailed me so he had no chance to control what I found out. She really did some damage, too and twisted the knife a few times. Do you think I should wait longer? He sometimes seems like he's trying to get control back or Hoover but other times seems sincere and like he is really trying. I know several people on this thread and others talk about divorce taking time. In my state there is only a 30-day waiting period for no-contest, no kids....probably will take a little longer but still seems fast. When I filed I wanted a 30 minute waiting period because I was afraid of this. And now here I am...sigh.
Thanks for listening everyone.
first off: someone posted to someone else not to take advice...well ironically that is giving someone advice...and there is a saying here at si...take what you will and discard the rest....and its a worthy one...
there will always be peeps who give bad advice, and of course there will also be peeps who give good or even great advice....
all advice needs to be weighed to each individuals sich...and of course each individual should make decisions and choices based on that....
and that poster also mentioned having no regrets....and i have always been a proponent of the "path of least regret".....and only each of us can decide which path that will be...and its not by looking at how we feel immediately after making the decision but by looking ahead 1 year and even 5 years down the road...which path will we regret then....sure its easy to make rash decisions, especially when charged with emotion....and those regrets do not usually come until some point down the road.....so before making any decision or choice...weigh the possiblities...will it be worth it next year or 5 years later...
someone posted that the affair was longer then the marriage...well when i found out about my ws's affair...i was with him for a total of 25 years....his ow#1 was there for 30 years...so i can relate....
sadly my ws did not choose to meet my new requirements of remaining my husband..so we are currently living in an in-house separation....
if there are no children involved....you can seek divorce....however you will still probably wonder if you did the right thing....on the flip side...depending on your age....and you do want children at some point....time may not be on your side to start all over again.....then again should you choose to stay...and work it out...bringing children into the sich may lead you to more regret....basically....you are caught i would say between a rock and a hard place...pick the rock that has the softest side.....
if you do not want children or are young...then time is completely on your side...take it.....
all marriages attempting "r" should be in mc as well as ic for each individual...dealing with infidelity is dealing with ptsd on some level....can you get through it on your own..yes but it can take longer and the road can be easier with help
the poster who posted about travelling to her parents....can he go with you....
the poster whose ws stated that he cannot possibly know her pain:
i actually loved that he had that insight...because honeslty he can't......he will never feel what you feel...even if you went out and had your own affair after his.....he is not an innocent, he is not trusting or trustworthy......and he would have had to have all to feel what you feel...and any ws who does say he or she knows how you feel or can relate to it.....BULLSHIT....they can empathsize but thats where it stops....and i love that your ws "sees" that...it shows insight alot of ws's do not have
the poster who is far from the first d-day: but has had others since.....ic, and mc imo shoud be mandatory to navigate the relationship you currently have....and hopefully through both you can make choices that will help you on your journey...and hopefully help you decide whether or not you DO want to stay in the marriage..
ok...honest....i know you well, we are "oldies"...no memory required...
first off: its so not different...he didn't tell you about ow#1 until it was well into it and a couple of kids later...her kids....
second who gives a rats ass if he is betraying her...she getting what she put out there....
third: it was over before it ever began...you just didn't know it yet.....dear heart...he is NPD, he is self serving, he is not and has never been a one woman man and he never will be...you just didn't know it then...but you have known that for quite some time now.....facing it and dealing and coping though are different entitiies.....
as for which to go for...if you think he won't give you a prob for the post nup then go for it...like yesterday....do not waste another minute......use the new info to hopefully guilt him into it...and use the anger to DETACH in every way, every way honest....every way!!!!!
if he chooses not to sign it then go straight for the divorce agreement...or then try the separation agreement...and if he doesn't sign the separation agreement then you are left with filing for divorce...and at least you tried .....
DO NOT WASTE ANYMORE TIME DEAR HEART!!!.....its time to ACT...deal with the coping later....deal with the why's later.....you are in an abusive sich...get out
if he were hitting you....you would need to concentrate on the what he is doing and deal with the whys later...because the "what" overrides the "why"....same thing for you dear heart....your what is overpowering the why
think with your head heart and not your heart heart!!!!
and if it helps do it for your kids...all 4, not just the 2 you have with npd!!!
miracle update: i have been dealing with my own anger which has surface in a pretty big way recently...and it seems like everytime i get it back under wraps something else crops up to antagnize me.....the most recent thing....
pfm(my ws) swears up and down that he is a changed man and not "out" there again (he has been doing this since d-day) and then i find out the next day that he IS indeed out there in a big way....cannot get into specifics.....he reads here...but without even looking for it, something came to me...its a small world and one never knows who really knows who.....and even though he knows i want a divorce, even though i KNOW i want a divorce...i am so tired of the fucking speeches he makes....i'm tired of watching him make faces at me when i go out with friend...im tired of his accusations that i am out there fucking other men..(which btw he has said to my dd)....im so tired of his carrying on about how much he loves me and how sorry he is, and that we could be happy again....basically im just tired of being in this mess......how do i know he's lying...his lips are moving!!!!
still looking forward though......and i keep shakin the anger off....and its comforting to know that my day is a comin!!!
living with an in-house separation is rough....i do not regret my decision....and i remind myself of this all the time....even though its rough now, i know that down the road i will be happy that i took this path of least regret for me anyways....
Do you think I should wait longer?
badmedicine - unfortunately it is probably impossible for me to tell you what you should do. Everyone situation is so unique. The best thing I can do is tell you my own situation and allow you to pull pieces that apply to you from my experiences.
For some people the decision to R or D is something they know right away. For others in is something that takes them a long time to understand and decide. For me and my WW, we decided on R the very first night after DDay. While it is probably a more unusual situation with affairs, my WW and I have always had what we would both call a very good marriage. Prior to Dday I would have never guessed that affairs can even happen in good marriages but they do. Because we had a good marriage, the marriage was something that we both wanted to keep. I have also taken an unusual route to R, our marriage is an open marriage and my WW still sees OM2. The path I have taken works for me, it is not one that I would necessarily recommend to others because it is one that fits my situation and other situations are likely not the same.
Again I can relate to the situation of a WS affair starting even before the marriage. At first I had an extremely difficult time dealing with that issue and understanding it. Having your entire marriage history suddenly tainted and not what you thought it was is an extremely difficult thing to come to terms with. As I have compaired my situation to others hearing dealing with A's there are some strange advantages.
First advantage - the question of blame for the A rests solely on the WS. While I believe this to be the case in just about all A's that the WS is 100% responsible - in the case of the A starting before M there is really no way to even logically argue it. I have used that to both ensure that my WW understands she needs to take full responsibilty and I have used it to reassure myself in difficult times when I may want to fault myself internally. This has given me strength.
Second advantage - I never really had a fear that my WW would rather be with OM. Why? Because she had full opportunity to do this if that is what she wanted. My WW married me over OM because she would much rather be with me. I am far better than OM in so many ways and understanding this has given me strength and confidence.
Like many who have never had to deal with something like this I had a complete misunderstanding of things. I thought affairs were isolated to bad marriages. I thought no one would have an affair unless it was with someone that they much rather would want to be with. I probably thought fault was shared because the BS was likely not contributing to the marriage. I had to reprogram my misguided understanding of affairs. Once I was able to better understand them through the help of reading other peoples stories on SI - I had a much more open viewpoint to identify specifics about my own situation.
I wish I could tell you the answer to the question that you seek - unfortunately I cant but I can give you pieces to your puzzle. I wish you strength badmedicine.
I have to remember to not to try to have a serious conversation with NPD. He just turns everything into circles and doesn't make any sense. He tells me I'm being controlling and watching everything he does. I'm controlling because I asked him to tell me if he wants W#3 first so I can leave. He has accused me of spying on him and watching what he does because I'm trying to control him.
I'm so sensitive to working on codependent tendencies in the past, so I end up thinking that there is a degree of truth in that. I overthink it all, but isn't that what happens to a BS? We don't fully trust, we do watch, we do try to verify.
Then he says a real gem that all men cheat and the ones who don't are naive or too innocent.
I'm just spinning my wheels with all his bullshit anyway.
Right now, I almost feel like after DDay. It really is another one anyway emotionally. I want to kick him out sooooo bad. We are supposed to go away as a family on Sunday with his family. The boys are looking forward to this. I tried to suggest cancelling this trip several times over the past few months, but everyone wants to go. I finally said to myself that this is the last time, the goodbye trip.
But I'm killing myself with emotions.
I really want to confront NPD with the texts, but what will that accomplish? More blameshifting, more gaslighting, more anger, etc.
There is no way to R with him. He will never give up OW#1 (and now OW#2, and who else down the road?) There is no way to have an emotionally intimate relationship with him, although he faked it pretty good over the years.
I'm still wavering about the post nup and the separation agreement.
My heart is racing, trying to keep busy, trying not to be on emotion mind, but it's so very hard.