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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 33
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest.

You have not turned the kids against him. They have turned against him because he is a asshole. NPDs have to be the bully if they can not get their way by other methods. People do not like or respect a bully.

I know you are not ready to play hardball with him but you need to get into that frame of mind. I am afraid that hardball is going to be the only way to handle him. He is too twisted and entitled to be treated like a normal person.

Listen to your family IRL and to your family here.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you, Dip. An asshole. That's exactly what ds 15 says he acts like and funny thing I've often said to the kids its ok to vent but don't talk like that about your father. This is what is getting to me. Don't accuse me of something I didn't do like turning the kids against him. Actually he has said even if I didn't do it intentionally, my crying and being upset is what did it. So perhaps I'm guilty in the sense that I should have left a long time ago and not only put myself but my kids through hell.

When older ds's are talking about hardball, they're talking real hardball. Don't know if I can or want to unless absolutely necessary

This is too hard. Npd is sitting there. It's like a zombie or alien is there, not the man I thought he was. It's like when my grandmother forgot everything you see the outward person, but they're really not there. Perhaps the truth is this is the real him and the person I thought I loved is just a persona or a facade.

This is another stage of grief. The loss of what you thought and believed was. I used to think the guy I loved was still in there somewhere.

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 6:49 PM, January 30th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
NikkiD
♀ Member
Member # 38173
Suspicious  Posted: 7:07 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If the WS is having an LTA with a person they met BEFORE they got married....why in the SAM HELL did they get married to someone else? Why not marry that person, or better yet......don't get married at all....SIGH

[This message edited by NikkiD at 7:08 PM, January 30th (Thursday)]


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 647 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

still2suspicious-

What do you want to do at this point?

Are you definitely done with the marriage? Have you decided that you want a divorce and are only biding your time until the financials are in order?

Or...deep down..do you still hope that maybe there is a chance for reconciliation?

If you are definitely headed toward divorce then you need to implement the 180. Just focus on yourself and your needs and do not give you WH a thought.

But...if you want to try to reconcile then there are some different things you could try to do.
Are you in IC? Have you set any boundaries with your WH?
Is your WH remorseful? does he want to save the marriage? or is he just going through the motions and possibly cake eating by keeping the status quo with you while still remaining in contact with the OW?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nikki-
sorry that you find yourself here.

My best guess as to those that continue a LTA before during and after marrying someone else is that the WS never truly considers the affair partner to be a good life partner.

They see the AP as a one dimensional person-they fulfill some needs but definitely not all.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
badmedicine
♀ Member
Member # 41692
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Nikki,

I agree with NJGal, this happened to me. WH had several opportunities to get out during the engagement (A started right after he put a ring on it...nice) and also in the earlier part of our M but he always said he wanted to be married to me. Too bad he was telling OW he wanted to be with her at the same time (including our wedding day).

I also think LTA waywards have a hard time deciding and an easy time compartmentalizing to allow selfishness to flourish and respect or real love for others to shrivel. That's a nice way of saying he was thinking of only himself and covering his ass. Sorry you are here.


"The wishbone will never replace the backbone." -Will Henry
"This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it." -Dorothy Parker

Posts: 133 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: United States
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nikki: There are a few of us that has happened to. Actually my WH told me he had broken up with his gf when we met, but he never did (and I found this out after 25 years) so technically I was the OW. He stayed in contact with her (probably physical too) throughout our dating, engagement and early marriage. I actually feel bad, because she didn't know herself. I ended up finding out that when she found out he married me, she stopped all contact with him.

I think they do this because they really cannot commit to one person.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

honest- Please do not blame yourself for how your sons perceive the NPD. They see him for who he is- a selfish, absent , father who has abandoned them and their mother for another woman and 3 OC.
And then when he does come back to the states he does nothing but complain, criticize, and try to control.
You and your boys deserve better. You deserve to have a peaceful life.
I agree with your older sons and with Dip- the only thing that might work with the NPD is hardball.
I believe that your sons only have your best interest at heart. Trust them.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

welcome newbies


nikki you seem to have asked the million dollar question:

W H Y!.......for them i believe it becomes "why not"....mostly because THEY CAN....

my ws was involved with ow#1 waay before i ever met him....and he never let her go until some point after d-day.....

I am currently living an in house separation and will seek divorce....

honest: dear heart...stop listening to the asshole...and yes he is an asshole....there is no way for him to justify the unjustifiable...but because he has balls the size of the rock of gibralter he will continually believe he is justifiable!!!!

he "believes" he is right, justified and rational....when WE ALL KNOW OTHERWISE!!! and it very very important that YOU REMEMBER THIS.....you can't make sense out of nonsense...and dear heart this is your struggle...you try to rationalize, you try to believe, you try to take fault....when you need to "see" him for WHO he is....WHAT he is and its waaay past time for you to stand up, hold your head up high and start putting one foot in front of the other....and walking fast, really fast out the door so to speak...

i am proud of you finally sticking up for yourself....he will never "see" what he does, he will never admit what he does, he will never own what he does...he will continually blame you and others because that is what he knows and that is what has always worked for him....

be prepared...he will up the ante....and realize that no matter what you say, he will twist it...no matter what you do, he will still do what he wants.....

keep focused...you can do this dear heart!!!!! you really can!!!


((((honest)))

(((newbies)))


(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 6:09 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome to the newbies - unfortunately short on time (as always) so that's all I can offer you at the moment.

Honest: don't let him get to you. You are doing well in seeing his bs for what it is - just keep it up. Sometimes he did things you had to explain. THat's his fault. Of course, had he had a decent relationship with his boys or the inclination to call them over the course of 4 months, he could've told them himself.

In a similar vein - yes, his ridiculous behavior devastated you. His fault. YOu are not a robot. You responded to what HE set in motion. There is a theory in law that Im reminded of - something I have not come across since law school, so its a bit foggy, but its along the lines of if you do something to someone and it would not cause death or serious injury to most people, but it killed or seriously injured your victim - you are still responsible for his/her injury/death. That was the make-up of the victim - and you caused it. It's not the victim's fault.

And with you there is a A LOT of blaming the victim. You are who he married. And HIS actions have caused your reaction. Your reaction is not to be blamed.

In any event...

You do not necessarily have to play hardball - definitions of which vary -some I'm ok with & others I am not. In any event, all you need to do is something. a start - you can always adjust your plan along the way.

I wonder if his reaction to the post nup is because he doesn't think you will go through with it or because if there ever is an order requiring him to do anything, pay anything, he will be just as happy not to return to the US. And that his relationship with your boys has deteriorated this is what worries me. Does he have any other family here in the US or other reasons in the US to come back?

Do the post-nup now & have the divorce papers ready to be served on him next time he comes back to the US.

If you cant tolerate the idea of him coming back ever again (justifiably so), then try to have him served with the divorce now.

(Also - do not over-stress about the house. I have clients in the middle of a divorce - their house has been in foreclosure since 2008. Free living for 5+ years now. Not a bad deal.)

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:32 AM, January 31st (Friday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
NikkiD
♀ Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey all. Thanks... I really struggle with this. When I felt like i couldnt decide in college...between a new great guy, and the love I still had for my current WS (we are/were high school sweet hearts..) I just left everyone alone. It was really very simple. I didnt have time to lie and cover up and all of the other foolery requires to keep up with the games.

I just dont get it....he said I am the better choice that I could make him happy (<<<<<flag on the play...happniess comes from within) he knows I love him uncondtionally, but his heart is with her, and there is 90% chance that with time, he would choose her.

My thing is...what do you need time for? He has been spitting game in her ear to keep her near for the ENTIRE duration of our marriage (going on 4 years now).......Serve me the papers and be with her. Why is that so hard, if that is where his heart is????


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 647 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NJgal: The problem is that when he does come, he can be so nice and charming and is often ok with the kids. But, of course, if he is not getting his own way, he can be in a bad mood, etc. If he was always acting badly all this time, it would have been easier to leave a long time ago. It was the usual acting badly and then the honeymoon phase.

What I'm realizing more and more is his attitude about being nice. It's like we should be grateful that he is acting nice, like that is something that is not a natural state and something he has to put effort into. Like we should appreciate it.

Allgood: thank you for your advice. Actually, I believe the reason he is still here and has not gone back is because he has an order to send overseas. Because of his business, he has plenty of reasons to come here. He also has family here too. He's also talked many times about bringing OW and OC's here to the US to live. Another reason I worry about the house, that he would move them all in here. I don't believe he'll just stay overseas and not come here.

I also worry about the deteriation of his relationship with the kids. He'll never be able to see that it is his actions that caused it, no matter what I may or may not have done or said.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest:

I don't believe he'll just stay overseas and not come here.

Then this is good news! If he doesn't comply with court orders here in US - particularly child support orders - a warrant for his arrest can be issued. Typically, they keep them in jail until they come up with a decent portion of the money that is due.

It's good to plan for the worst case scenario - to the extent that is possible- but in your case what this means is taking steps to become self -supporting. Start looking at other career options if going back to teaching is problematic.
BUT don't let the fear of the worst case scenario stop you from moving forward. It does not meant that is what WILL happen.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 9:47 AM, January 31st (Friday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

honesttoafault

It was not you wanting the D, it was your H. He is the one who failed to live up to his commitment. You know that and this is all that matters. Let him lie to himself.

Hats off to you for having courage! Way to go. That is the good coming out of you. You have it!
It wont be long you will feel real good about being independent. You will learn this again and so many good feelings come with it. You keep up the pressure.

As for your son, go make an extra key and give it to him. This is YOUR house. No man is going to make that decision for you.

He's also talked many times about bringing OW and OC's here to the US to live.
So what. Let him. Eliminate him from your life as much as possible.

I also worry about the deteriation of his relationship with the kids.
Let your kids decide that. That is no longer your concern. Your kids are smart enough and wise enough to know the truth! You keep your good relationship with them like I know you do.

Wow.. Now I see quality!!! Of course I always did see it.

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:30 AM, January 31st (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...why in the SAM HELL did they get married to someone else?

Hi NikkiD,

Your WS is really the only one who can answer this, and in my experience he may not have a good answer, at least not one that will make sense to you as a non-wayward. Not that this is our situation, but with my FWW it could be because that is what NORMAL people do. She is very driven by wanting to appear as normal.

Now he says he wants to be alone to find himself and I am perfect, but not for him.

FWW has said similar things to me. For FWW, and I believe many LTA WS, it is an issue of being uncomfortable with emotional intimacy. He may be much more comfortable with the relationship with the AP where he can manage the relationship, control the information better than he can in a M relationship. This is what FWW loved about her AP relationships. She was able to be the person she wanted to project, she could avoid them and be NC if they said or did anything to piss her off, but reel them back in by offering to meet for sex if she wanted more contact and affirmation. If an AP criticized her she would laugh it off telling herself they were lucky to have her attentions. OTOH, she worried constantly about what I thought of her, and was ashamed of much of her family and who she was.

So long as your WH is thinking and acting as a wayward, there will not be rational thoughts or explanations from him. I recall some of the crap FWW said in the months after dday and it is funny now in how ridiculous it was, but at the time it was her perception and reality.

As for the waiting 20 years, I dont know, but I suspect the real trigger to the countdown was the M. Once M there is an expectation for an emotionally as well as physically intimate relationship. When you were dating, it was more like an A. When you are Md, the physical proximity alone can begin to break down barriers and impose some intimacy. This may have made him uncomfortable; he may have quit feeling special and needs external validation to affirm himself. Once Md, you were no longer external validation, but OW was and still is.

Honest,
Nothing to add except we are cheering for you. You the Woman! It is much easier to sit on the sidelines and armchair quarterback the plays. It is much harder to be in the middle of the game with all of this swirling around you. Still, I sense that you are finding your space and able to observe all the drama from that safe internal space. I would offer things and arguments for you to use with NPD, but we both know they will not work. He filters all he perceives through his NPD. There is no rationalizing, no empathy, not sense of fair play. All you can do is keep yourself centered and keep walking towards your goals.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood: thank you for all your advice. It's priceless.

Tryn: Thank you for your support. Technically, I have been independent for many years, except financially. I take care of him when he comes, so it's like an extra child to take care of. I will have absolutely no problem being on my own as I have been. The price I was paying for the time he was here was getting too great. The good times were getting less and less and my eyes were opened more and more as to what I was putting up with.

Ats: Your post to Nikki was extremely enlightening!! OMG! It really described NPD. It made sooooo much sense to me. WOW! I can't describe what a burden off my heart it has been. It makes so much sense that when NPD said he loved me, etc, it was as true to him as it could be, but not the real intimate love that would be expected in a M. He often treated me as an AP throughout our M, and still does (I guess I am) that it makes sense. Cannot have or sustain emotional intimacy. It was always push and pull. He would pull me in emotionally and then push me away. It always hurt like hell.
Thank you for your support.

I'm sorry guys, I guess I will be needing a lot of support in the next few weeks. I always self doubt around him.

Thank you all. I love you.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
NikkiD
♀ Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ats

Thanks....that actually makes sense...its some bullshyt...But I got a lot of clarity from it.

Thank you!


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 647 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
still2suspicious
♀ Member
Member # 31722
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nj-

What do you want to do at this point

I am just inches away from going for the D. In fact, I have an appt with a L next Wed. We've been down the L road before, but I decided to try someone new.

Are you definitely done with the marriage

I was ALWAYS the one fighting for us! I have never felt as done as I do now. But, yes the financials are the stumbling block. If I do it too soon, he could destroy our business out of spite, and we would both be penniless. After all these years I am not gonna do that to MYSELF!

I did IC. She retired We did MC until he declared "I am done with this. I don't want to keep having to answer questions, or feel bad about myself" Well, la de da! That was the beginning of me shutting down. He is not NPD, but can be such a selfish prick sometimes. And his FOO come out more and more, they are all like this.

We are not in-house separated. He has NO idea what I am thinking, planning, doing. We are just like roommates, IMO. Him? He seems to be much happier now that I don't talk. What he is thinking is beyond me, and frankly, after all this time, I just don't give a shit.

In the 5 yrs since D-day I had found only one attempt at contact with bitchface. BUT since I didn't know about the previous 3 yrs I really cannot rely on myself Actually I continue to check, behind the scenes. There are just too many ways to hide contact now-a-days, and I am just too tired of his bullshit to really care.

In my life there are no arguments, no discussions or questions to him. His declarations snapped me down, and I am fine with it at this point. And the infrequent sex is really the straw breaking the camel's back

BUT, I DO know what I want and this is NOT it!

How can he look me in the eye and just lie?? How come he picked HER AGAIN? Why during recovery did he basically just give me lip service? Why didn't he just keep us separated, instead of asking me to come home? He already had her in his grasp, and she him, so why not just keep going down that road? That way it didn't have to be hidden from me anymore? He could do whatever the hell he wanted, and I could have been healing 5 yrs ago???

Oh yeah, our 40th anniversary is in 2 weeks and there has been NO mention of it at all. No expections=no new hurts for me.

sorry, another book! I write like I talk, which is never short

eta: brother, ONE word can make all the difference in a sentence! sheez!

[This message edited by still2suspicious at 3:20 PM, January 31st (Friday)]


Me: BS
Him: WH
DDay: LTEA

Posts: 1182 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From:
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest-
you say that you hesitate to take action because when he comes to the states he acts nice and he does not behave badly all the time.

gently.... he IS behaving badly all the time.

He is betraying you and your boys every single day. He lives with another woman and has fathered 3 OC with her.

No amount of 'nice' can ever make up for that.

He is damaging you and your boys with his behavior.
This is emotional abuse and unfortunately you are beginning to see the damage that the NPD has done.

A few years ago you wrote about how your son was suddenly failing all subjects in school even though he previously was a very good student.
You wondered why...well...IMHO the obvious reason is that he has been emotionally damaged by the terrible behavior of his father.

Now your 18 yr old refuses to stay in the house with the NPD and your 2 older sons are at the end of their rope....disappointed and very upset for you and their younger step brothers.
It is such an awful mess and all of it is NPD's doing.

How much money could the courts possibly award you if the house is under water and there is no equity, he has no money in the bank, he owes relatives money, he lost all of your money, and has hidden any assets over seas. He also does not work in the USA so there are no wages they can garnish.

You have been living on your own for many years now. When he is gone you are managing well on your own.Your older sons say that they are prepared to help you and support you after you D the NPD.

What is the main thing holding you back from going ahead and filing for D?
It sounds like all of your sons would be very happy if you did.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nikki- I'm sorry that your WH is not showing remorse and instead is telling you that he still can't decide what he wants....
He had two children with you.
What is wrong with these people?
Oh well... you obviously have no other choice other than beginning to get advice as to how to proceed.
Have you met with a lawyer yet?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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