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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Fight
plainpain
♀ Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is one thing that I really struggle with.. how not to bring the A into every fight that we have. We had a misunderstanding last night that escalated so quickly into 'you always' and 'you never' and 'you're always right' and 'you can't expect me to be perfect' and 'That's right, I'm always hurting you. That's all I do.' I thought, considering the magnitude of all that my H has forced me to suffer, that he should avoid like the plague anything that sounds like gas-lighting or deflecting. But he did it again. He hurts my feelings, I don't even say a WORD but he can see my face fall, and then he gets angry at me for having hurt feelings - like I'm just supposed to 'take it', like I'm a diva baby. And he said to me, 'You need to have grace for me. I have grace for you'. I just looked at him. I did NOT say, 'Your mistress is PREGNANT, right now, this very minute, with YOUR CHILD. How am I not having grace for you?'

When do the fights stop 'going there'? When does he stop feeling that I'm holding everything over his head, and I stop feeling like he has lobotomized the last year of our life? I know he feels terrible about the fight - he always feels terrible AFTER. I feel like I've been set back about six months in my healing. I know it takes time, and I know healing is happening, and I know we can't learn everything we need to learn about healthy relationship all in one day, and I know we will both continue to make mistakes. But every time we fight I just want to open the door and start walking and never stop walking.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
Reality
♀ Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think there is a way to completely take the affair out of the equation, plain. The thing is, a lot of the time, the things that cause conflict are the very things that laid the foundation of thoughts and behavior that led the WS into wayward behavior.

Frankly, my WH and I have the same fight over and over again. Every fight ends up being about the same thing. Sure, there are different flavors, tangential circumstances, but the true core of it remains exactly the same. And equally frankly, it's exactly the same reasoning and thought patterns that led him to his affairs.

It's terrifying, I know. But I don't think the fights stop "going there" until the behaviors that trigger the confrontations are abandoned. Your WH frankly has no business telling you how and what you react to. He gets angry for you having hurt feelings? TOO BAD FOR HIM. Maybe he should try to, you know, NOT hurt your feelings.

Don't accept the blameshifting that represents. You are allowed to have emotions, to react to them, and yes, he has to be accountable.


Posts: 292 | Registered: Apr 2013
plainpain
♀ Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 10:11 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm realizing how much of an enabler I have been all these years - always finding reason to make excuse for him, no matter how humiliating it was for me. I told him last night, 'No, you are NOT doing this to me anymore. You are not making me feel like I am crazy'. It's terrifying, because I realize in the middle of the fight how much I actually DON'T care anymore. I used to be terrified of being abandoned. Now, that's the last thing on my mind. I'm not sure if he's aware of the shift, but I sure am. Those same old fights, where he blame shifts, talks over me, guilts me, makes me feel like I'm just exaggerating everything.. I just can't do it anymore. Not for one day, not for one hour, not for one minute of my life.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
HardenMyHeart
♂ Member
Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anger is poison to R. When the argument starts getting heated, then stop. If you don't, then a downward destructive spiral ensues and you find yourself in the situation you are in now.

So sorry you are struggling with this.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 1:47 AM, November 3rd (Sunday)]


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Inner peace begins the moment you choose not to allow another person or event to control your emotions.


Posts: 5667 | Registered: Aug 2007
RightTrack
♀ Member
Member # 36976
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same here. I win every fight now. He's getting used to it.

Posts: 621 | Registered: Sep 2012
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know that brand of fighting. It's the one that says "if you can't get a word in, then I win. If I'm louder, then I win. If I change it around and make it about you, I win." It's garbage and weak, and it's infuriating. I too used to worry abuot abandonment. Until I was abaondoned emotionally. Now, I worry about me generally.

I've said terrible things in fights, things I'm not proud of at all. So this may not be my area to empathize with you on, but maybe he's making it about the A to dodge what he feels might be coming, or what you might be thinking. He knows that his A is bigger than whatever fight you're having. You're trying to take the high road, and not bring the A into it. He can't seem to stop himself. That's very odd behavior. He's probably just saying what he thinks you're thinking.

If it's frustrating to you, the next time he says something as silly as 'you have to have grace for me', then just say 'you're standing here, still my husband. That's about as graceful as I can be right now." and walk away. You can't fight someone that's fighting himself, and you can't let him belittle your feelings.

I'd let him know that I was trying, but he was trying my patience. You don't need to go through every awful thing he did (and you'll feel terrible later if you do - trust me), but you can let him know that your fuse is still fairly short, and you are not going to accept his dictating your feelings or the tone of every argument, making himself the victim.

You've dealt with way more than you should from him, and you still are. He's very selfish sometimes, clearly, if he's behaving like this.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, November 2nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

'You need to have grace for me. I have grace for you'

It's one thing for your WH to ask for grace from you while dealing with this shitstorm. However, it's quite another when he feels that he can 'tit-for-tat' you on this issue. -- how nice that he has 'grace' for you....(I didn't realize that *you* were knocked up by a man other than your husband and that your husband was all 'kum-bi-yah' about it. --/sarcasm)

I did NOT say, 'Your mistress is PREGNANT, right now, this very minute, with YOUR CHILD. How am I not having grace for you?'

Maybe you *should* have said this.

IMO, you'll stop feeling as if you are holding everything over his head when *he* stops treating you as if that is what you're doing <when it really isn't>. He is a big-time deflector.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8023 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
sinsof thefather
♀ Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 6:16 AM, November 3rd (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You need to have grace for me.

That there is the very crux of the problem. His entitlement. Underneath it all, it's still there, loud and clear. He may very well be working on it but right now it's still there.


From what you posted it seemed as though it wasn't even you who brought the A into the argument - it was him. He is the one that turned this into an argument about the affair.


When does he stop feeling that I'm holding everything over his head,


When he accepts that there are consequences to you both after his betrayal of you. When he has the grace to accept the full magnitude of what his actions have done to you and that you don't have to forgive him for it in the first place - or give him the gift of your grace in trying to reconcile your marriage with him either. As gonna says, it's not a tit for tat game. He can never balance out what he's done or expect your acceptance, forgiveness or grace for it. He can long for it, welcome it if it comes, but he can't expect it. He can help you while you work towards it by exhibiting patience while you let your rightful emotions out.


When he accepts the depth of the hurt within you and truly realises that you are already exhibiting a great deal of grace in trying to recover from it, then he should see it that you are not actually holding it over his head - instead you are feeling and expressing your rightful and unavoidable pain from his actions, in an attempt to heal from it - still together - with him.

At the moment he still doesn't fully accept what he's done to you (or just doesn't like the consequences of it) and he doesn't like being the one totally in the wrong. Seeing your hurt reminds him that he has done wrong....which he'd rather forget, so he is then the one lashing out towards you for your pain reminding him of it. imo.

I did NOT say, 'Your mistress is PREGNANT, right now, this very minute, with YOUR CHILD. How am I not having grace for you?'

Like everyone else, I think you should say this to him - he shouldn't actually need it pointed out - but it seems that he still does. But if it were me I'd say it to him when he is calm and trying to be empathic rather than when he's mid argument. When his inner entitlement is expressing himself as it did here in this argument I doubt he'd hear you.


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1877 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Shocked  Posted: 7:25 AM, November 3rd (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((plainpain)))

Thanks for posting this....I am very sad and sorry to have read your post, seen your pain, but your post is my post this morning.

Last Wednseday we had a discussion about the A. The conversation grew...at one point my wife told me she needed me to back off. I did within 5 minutes....this is FAST for me and something I am working on...my counselors advice. Counselor knows us both and recommends backing away when my wife feels attacked....I understand and agree completely.


Thusrday and Friday...no A related discussions, smiles when I came home from work, genuinely pleased to be a normal family for a bit. Saturday morning she left to do her job...small business owner, primarily weekend work. We snuggled briefly before she left...all good.

Saturday was busy for me...started to not feel so stable...too many tasks, too many other family interactions (multiple visitors from out of town for quick visits)...details aren't that important I don't think.

Wife came home around 11:30 pm. Daughter left a touching note telling her Mom she missed her today.

Ill cut to the chase...a stern argument started shortly after she got home....not a fight, no name calling, but it could have escalated to that if we had allowed it.

It really started with me NOT smiling, not being really pleased she is home safe and my wife worrying about what type of mood I would be in as our communication that day eluded to the fact that I was struggling that day.

The thing is, a lot of the time, the things that cause conflict are the very things that laid the foundation of thoughts and behavior that led the WS into wayward behavior.

THIS COULD VERY WELL BE IT!!!

Pre-A I would come home and great my wife in a similar fashion. I would be pleased to be home but not be smiling or acting very pleased to see my wife.

Part of me looks back NOW and think I wasted so many opportunities, part of me thinks I wasted an opportunity last night.

BUT...and this is a big BUT...it takes two to waste such opportunities.

This is where the enabling and co-dependency thing SUCKS! My wife could choose how she interacts with me...both pre and post-A.

She could be more direct about her expectations and desires through the use of expressing how she feels....rather than the scolding, judging way in which she does....which pretty much is accusatory in tone saying.......Arent you happy to see me? Cant you at least fake like you love me?

I COULD use my past, look back at how I acted pre-A towards my wife and think....What an ass I was, look how UNIMPORTANT the things that took my attention away from my wife (saving for college for our girls, projects at work, etc.
) were....see how it added to our disconnection....and think to myself....Fool, get your priorities straight. It should be God, Wife, Family, everything else.

But this idea that this is part of the old pattern that led to our disconnect is well stated Reality...thank you so much!!!!!! I could see how it could almost be a trigger of sorts for my wife.....not thinking she is blaming me for her adultery, but I could see how it could cause her to feel very alone. Maybe make her nervous about her future...that she will never feel safe and connected in our M and feel vulnerable and exposed to parts of herself that she has not yet grown past?

I seek what Plainpain seeks....how do we break that cycle and yet still deal with the consequences of the affair? How do I read a loving note from my daughter to my wife expressing how much she loves her and how much she wanted her to be a part of our family the day she worked and NOT desire to ask my wife the question....How did the damage to our daughters, the threat to the family they are a part of, not factor into your decision to commit adultery? (to this day she contends she did not step out on her daughters, she would never abandon them).

We do not have a counselor. We spent 12 months and thousands of dollars with one....we got a lot of it in terms of IC and some out of early MC...but then got into a predictable....He said this, how does that make you feel? and She did this, how does that make you feel?...pattern that was not really helping us.

You mentioned grace.

We are called to have grace. Grace is not earned, it is given. BS have been severely wronged....God gets that, gave us a clause to D over so He really gets it. BUT we are to give grace to others in spite of them deserving it. In fact, I am not sure you can call it grace if you give it when someone else deserves it....still visiting with my Pastor on this.

So I don't have any answers....lots of words in this response to you plainpain...but no answers.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:33 AM, November 3rd (Sunday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3749 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, November 3rd (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

From what you posted it seemed as though it wasn't even you who brought the A into the argument - it was him. He is the one that turned this into an argument about the affair.

This COULD become a pattern....a fWS tying everything back to the A to control the BS....or a BS tying everything back to the A to control the WS.

Don't think either cases help a M and actually destroy it....why would anyone desire to be a part of that type of relationship?

This cycle can be broken by either spouse.

Entitlement on both sides needs to be defused. For a healthy M to survive adultery...love of the other person must be the main motivator of change. Change for any other reason appears to me to be fluid...meaning not permanent.

Peace to us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:30 AM, November 3rd (Sunday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3749 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
plainpain
♀ Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel like we were both annoyed about something fairly benign, but I think I am the one who actually took it to the 'A' place when he said, 'You need to have grace for me. I have grace for you'. I think, in his mind, we have moved past it, at least in the sense that maybe he isn't holding it at the front of his mind when he's mad at me. But I think about it when I'm mad at him - I'm ALWAYS thinking about it - and I know I feel the injustice of it rise up in me when we fight, no matter if I'm right or wrong.

After the fight, we had a very reasonable, gentle, honest talk about our marriage dynamics, and how we have responded to one another over the years. I've really been working through a lot of my side of the marriage issues that I never realized were there. I really think more and more that I lived in a fantasy marriage that was all in my own mind. He didn't ever talk to me about his feelings - and he's doing that now. And so I have to be willing to hear a lot of things that are very painful to receive right now - not A stuff, but our own relationship stuff - and I'm aching with wishing that he had talked to me like this BEFORE.

Honestly, I feel like I fell head first into that bottomless well of regret and 'if only' that I have been so desperately trying to avoid. I have been crying for three days, and my eyes are almost swollen shut. It isn't about blame at this point - it's about just fixing what was damaged and never going back to that place again. And he has never said it, and he would be angry if he heard me say it, but I have this overwhelming sense of 'I deserved it'. I don't even blame him for cheating on me, the way I'm feeling about myself today.

And my husband should be able to talk honestly with me about his feelings about our relationship, without me completely falling apart in self-pity and self-loathing. I want to deal with all his issues, and rug-sweep all of mine because it just hurts so, so bad.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
crazyblindsided
♀ Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frankly, my WH and I have the same fight over and over again. Every fight ends up being about the same thing. Sure, there are different flavors, tangential circumstances, but the true core of it remains exactly the same. And equally frankly, it's exactly the same reasoning and thought patterns that led him to his affairs.

Reality you hit the nail on the head for me. Now that I see the patterns I try not to engage the same way I did in the past. The focus tends to fall back on WH and he realizes too that his pattern of thinking is effed up. My WH will usually apologize to me now whereas in the past he would blame me or turn our fights into blaming me. I don't partake in that cycle anymore.


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
Final Dday 7/11/14 Affair never ended

Posts: 2266 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
sinsof thefather
♀ Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

plainpain you absolutely did not deserve to be cheated on. No one does. Ever.

And my husband should be able to talk honestly with me about his feelings about our relationship, without me completely falling apart in self-pity and self-loathing. I want to deal with all his issues, and rug-sweep all of mine because it just hurts so, so bad.


painplain you should be able to talk honestly about your feelings too. You can't rugsweep your own issues. You can't put him in front of yourself that's not healthy and it won't help your R in the longterm. You do deserve to be heard.


You've got so much on your shoulders right now, you've got to cut yourself some slack - let your husband support you. He does owe you that. No matter what happened in your marriage before (I'm sorry I don't know your full story) it is him that has brought you both to this place with his decision to cheat. You're the one hurting the most right now - why can't he support you? Why does it only work one way? That's an unhealthy dynamic painplain and you deserve better than that.


Are you trying to hide the depth of your pain from him? If so why? Why do you feel that he should be able to talk to you openly about his feelings but that you can't show him the depth of your own pain?

painplain, my heart breaks for you and I can sense the depth of your pain in your words. ((((((HUGS))))))



...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1877 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
Reality
♀ Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Exactly, crazy. The first step is finding the patterns. The second step is choosing to not engage in them. It's the only way off the crazy-train.

And my husband should be able to talk honestly with me about his feelings about our relationship, without me completely falling apart in self-pity and self-loathing. I want to deal with all his issues, and rug-sweep all of mine because it just hurts so, so bad.

((plainpain)) You're taking way too much responsibility. Of course you're going to have times you fall apart. There are going to be times you trigger six different ways. Think about the struggle to communicate those emotions. It was hard, wasn't it? But here's the important part: You still did it. Maybe not perfectly, maybe not as eloquently as you wanted, but you made the effort. You even made the effort during a completely non-optimal situation.

Your husband can do this, too. He HAS to do this, too. This shouldn't be about finding the perfect situation where he feels perfectly welcome and validated in sharing his feelings. He put you both here and he has to do an enormous amount of work to help get you both out of it.

He can do this even when it's hard. Even when you fall apart - especially when you fall apart, even. He does have consequences for the choices he made. Don't shield him.

Say what you thought. That was honest. It was the truth. He needs to blame himself and NOT YOU when things are rough.

Edit: Cross posted with sins. Totally agreed.

[This message edited by Reality at 3:05 PM, November 4th (Monday)]


Posts: 292 | Registered: Apr 2013
plainpain
♀ Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do hide the depth of my pain from him, although that is more recent, I think. It can't be undone, and he's doing everything he can now to make it right. He's not perfect. At all. But he really does listen to me now and receive everything I'm saying. The dysfunction just comes out so clearly in the heat of battle, I guess - it's jarring, because I feel like we've made so much progress.

I don't know why - I don't think he is really capable of understanding the depth of my pain. He grew up in a horribly abusive home - they write books about the kind of life he had. Infidelity is something everyone in his family does routinely. He never wanted to be 'that guy'.

Whether he would or not, I don't know - but I am afraid he will think I am being dramatic or 'attention seeking' if I say, 'It feels like you poured battery acid all over me. It feels like you brought a woman to my door to shoot me and your children all in the face, and then you bought her dinner and flowers.'

How is he supposed to understand that? I don't know. I suppose I TT my pain.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
Reality
♀ Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Plain, a lot of us, both WS and BS come from less than awesome childhoods. You can look at my profile to see a bit of mine.

MY WH also has some seriously horrible family traditions, including infidelity, emotional abuse, and complete lack of any real communication.

I have sore parts in me that he has to understand are there and treat carefully. He has sore spots in him that I have to understand are there and treat carefully. It's the only way to really be together. But in no way does that mean that we can't understand each other if that's what we both want to do. In no way does that mean I can't be held to standards of behavior that are honest and honorable - and the same goes for my WH.

I, too, tried to make it "easier" for my WH initially and keep myself "out of the equation." Know what? That was a huge mistake. Partnership is supposed to be equal effort, equal involvement, and equal responsibility. You can't be responsible for his actions OR for what happened to him when he was younger. You can be responsible for how honestly you communicate how YOU feel.

Your WH wasn't responsible for himself. He isn't being responsible for the pain he caused you and how that affected you. He really does have to be responsible for what he's done. Being upset with the consequences - your very natural emotional responses - of what he chose isn't being responsible. That's him demanding you carry him.


Posts: 292 | Registered: Apr 2013
heforgotme
♀ Member
Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

'you can't expect me to be perfect'

No, I didn't expect you to be perfect. I expected you not to cheat.

Gee, how unreasonable.......


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1081 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
heartache101
♀ Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hate to argue or fight. But when I do I let it rip. You bet your panties if his actions are like they were then I tell him I will not be treated like that!


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3188 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
sinsof thefather
♀ Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, November 4th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't mean this to be a short answer painplain, but I have to leave for work but saw this and had to respond to it immediately.

I don't think he is really capable of understanding the depth of my pain.

The thing is if he doesn't see it - he never will understand it. He should be working to understand it. Because it is in the understanding of it that he realises the depth of what he's done. Does he have an IC? If his foo was as abusive as you say then he more than likely does have issues that he will need to work through to become the healthy person that you both want him to be.


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1877 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
Topic Posts: 19

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