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Newest Member: 4hazel (45322)

Just Found Out Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Need Strength Advice Help
Ambermoon
New Member
Member # 41173
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, November 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well I have been talking to him for past 3 hours. He just kept texting me and I finally relied. He is denying everything. He kept asking why I didn't want him anymore. I told him why and he just kept swearing that he never cheated and why would he and kept saying he wanted me. I asked sexually or back in my life. He said both. I am not sure what to think. I know cheating is just one issue but I'm so confused. I told him that when he is rough with me that it is abusive. He said I never asked him to stop so how is that his fault?
I don't feel any better after talking to him. I'm more confused then ever. Would he go to this length to just have sex with me? He didn't apologize. He said he didn't betray me so there is nothing to apologize for. He said he loves to have sex with me so why wouldn't he ask me for that and he thought I did too. He implied that he assumed that if I had come over for sex that we would get back together. He said I normally love it when he talks dirty to me but now I don't. Ugh.... round and round.
My son even said that maybe he is telling me the truth because he said he can tell he loves me. Ugh.
I am so scared and confused.
He just stopped texting me and I'm assuming he fell asleep. Nothing was decided. But I think he thinks that we are back on. Or maybe he realized it was too much work to bother.
I don't know what I'm going to do.

Posts: 43 | Registered: Oct 2013
Hope2B
♀ Member
Member # 40474
Default  Posted: 12:58 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know what I'm going to do.

You've been given some REALLY GOOD advice here. Gently...you are sending out mixed messages to him. Somehow, there is a payoff to you, with the repeated contact that you reinforce by responding to him.

More gently, nothing good will come of this unless and until you get some serious help for yourself to keep you safe. (((Ambermoon)))

[This message edited by Hope2B at 1:01 AM, November 7th (Thursday)]


Me: early 60s
Him: 65 yrs old, LTA w/a pro$titute
Married since 1980, no children
DDay: Feb. 25, 2013
Trickle Truth Days: Sept 10, 11, 13, 15 (2013)
His affair--says it was only 8 times 1x/mo, then found out it was 7 YEARS 2-3x/mo or maybe ever 4x/mo

Posts: 359 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: out west/west coast U.S.A.
Dawn58
♀ Member
Member # 37656
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NC, is all I can say. I know it is difficult and it took me several weeks before I was able to do it and only when the pain got to be too much. I changed my phone numbers and blocked his emails. Only then, was I able to start to get out of the insanity. Focus on yourself, doing the things that will help you heal. If you have access to a therapist, do it. Read the healing library. Post here and know that you will get through this. Hot baths, talk to friends, get a massage, whatever it takes. The crazies will stop when you start to disengage. I know how hard it is, it took me a long time to get it. It is so hard to realize that the man that you loved with all yor heart is this horrible monster. I still don't get it. I still don't understand how he could just toss my love away. But, he did. He is a narcissist and the more I read about it and understand it, I understand that the affair had NOTHING to do with me and EVERYTHING to do with him. He's damaged.

This sucks and you are walking through hell. I know. But every time I feel sucked into remembering how it was, how much I loved him, I remember who he really is right now and that I do NOT want a husband who lies, deceives and cheats on me. I deserve so much more. So do you.

You will uncover an inner strength that will carry you through.


I got into the marriage, because I loved him. I got out of the marriage, because I love me.

Posts: 479 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Southern California
Charity411
♀ Member
Member # 41033
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you pay close attention you'll see what he's doing. By getting you off on the tangent of talking about loving having sex with you he avoids the real issue. The cheating and disrespect for you or your feelings or needs. .

He keeps telling you what you love and what you think. And that's why you're so confused. You said something you should repeat to yourself over and over. "I don't feel any better talking to him". Remember that. And ask yourself why you would continue to talk to him if it doesn't make you feel good. What exactly are you getting out of this relationship other than feeling loved because he loves having sex.

Yes, this guy will go this far to have sex with you. When I left a relationship exactly like this, after repeatedly getting sucked back in my him, he went completely off the rails trying to win the sex back. Note. I didn't say win me back. This was not about me. It was about his gratification and that was all that mattered. And his idea of great sex was abusive aggressive sex which I was slowly groomed to put up with. Understanding that difference was what made me be able to stick with shutting him out. Even after he would send roses to my office (which I refused) wrote poetry to me in the local paper, left notes on my car, in my house while I was at work and on and on and on. For years. I eventually filed stalking charges.

I genuinely feel horrible for you. I so remember what it was like to be in this kind of relationship. I got into it right after my divorce because my husband left me for his best friend's wife. I had zero self esteem and this guy knew it. I was an easy target and he knew just how to keep me there. By keeping me confused and off balance. Reading your posts is like hitting the replay button for me. I'm praying for you to keep focused and stand firm. It will be the best thing you ever do for yourself.


Posts: 384 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Illinois
LearningToFly
♀ Member
Member # 39073
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This man is dangerous. This man is hurting you. He could also hurt your son to hurt you more. Please let others around you know what is going on. He sounds dangerous and you need other people in real life to watch out for you.


Me - BS (53) Him-WS(58)
Her OW(55) HighSchoolGirlfriend
Together 30 years Married 28 Kids 24,21,18
D day Feb 26 2013 after 20 months
D day March 4 they met again "to say goodbye"
D day April 2 found out about secret email

Posts: 188 | Registered: Apr 2013
Chrysalis123
♀ Member
Member # 27148
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, November 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was involved with an emotionally abusive man, like you. I never thought of it as abusive, until I started to get help for myself. I went to Alanon which was a lifesaver. It's all about self growth. You can go and say nothing. I got an IC, I refused MC because he would manipulate me. And I read. I felt like I was reading about me, and that the author had somehow peeked into my life. The most helpful books (in no order) were:

Codependent No More
Women That Love too Much
Why Does He do That?

keep posting Ambermoon. We are here for you.

PS..breaking up with someone like your man is harder than a break-up with an emotionally healthy partner. It is like breaking an addiction for the abuse victim.... Please visit the NPD forum on the I can Relate forum on this site.


Donít get to the end of your life and find that you lived only the length of it; live the width of it as well.†

Posts: 2702 | Registered: Jan 2010
NoAnswers37
♀ Member
Member # 40592
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Amber, just checking in to see if you're OK?


Live without pretending
Love without depending
Listen without defending
Speak without offending

Posts: 122 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: England
emotionalgirl
♀ Member
Member # 40184
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am wondering as well. I keep watching for a thread with your user ID but haven't seen any.


1st D day: Saturday July 20,2013
2nd D day....when the s**t really hit the fan and the truth came out.Saturday August 3,2013
3rd D day: Friday August 16, 2013...NC sent Friday Aug 30 4th D day NOV 11
Me: BS
Him: WH
Married 25 years....finally in R

Posts: 373 | Registered: Aug 2013
Ambermoon
New Member
Member # 41173
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for reaching out to me.

We are back together and we are already having issues. I am seeing more each day that this relationship has destroyed my self esteem and my emotional well being. And I think this is triggering some major abandonment issues that I didn't even know I had because I feel paralyzed by fear if I feel he doesn't want me anymore. I feel like even though I am unsure if I want him. I have to know he wants me and is there for me.
He somehow convinced me that he doesn't know who the person was that sent him the half naked picture. He said he has never seen her before or talked to her. He said put the rubber packages in his bed on purpose so I would find them because he was so mad that I broke up with him and that I hurt him so deeply he wanted to hurt me back. He said he only texted me about wanting sex to hurt me. He said that he swears on his son's life that he has never cheated on me. He said why would I cheat? You give me everything I want and need and it is the best sex of my life. I have no desire for anyone but you. He said it is crazy to even think that he could do that to me. He said he loves me and only me. He said that I should know by now that he loves me and that he doesn't know how to handle conflict. I believed him. We made up and had the best night together. He held me close to him all night and told me he loved me about 50 times in his sleep. Kept kissing me on the head and saying you are all I want. I felt so close to him.
I have not yet met his parents and this has been a constant fight. He will tell me I can meet them and then cancel. He said he is ready for me to meet his family the other night and wants a future with him.
I asked him to move back in and he said not yet. I felt like I was going to freak out because he didn't want to move back in yet I wasn't even sure I wanted that. That is why I know it is bringing up abandonment issues for me. Because deep down I really don't want him to live here but I feel like I need him to want to. Make sense? Probably not. I am still trying to figure it out. He has been sleeping over every night but his stuff is not moved in.
So fast forward to today. Tomorrow is his bday and I asked to take him out to breakfast when we wake up tomorrow. he said maybe. thought that was weird. So anyways he texts me tonight that he is coming over after work but has to leave early to go out for breakfast wtih his family for his bday. I asked if I am invited. He said no but he would let me meet them sometime soon. I told him not to bother to come over. He then asked why I was being mean to him? And he kept saying I want to see you tonight. I told him that I feel like a booty call not his girlfriend. He said oh okay whatever and got mad and ignored me all day. Now he is acting like nothing happened and is on his way over. I am furious. I am sick of his little mind games. I asked him how he could totally ignore my feelings and he said I don't know what you are talking about. He said everything is fine. I said no it is not fine. You hurt my feelings and then he ignores me again. Then acts like the conversation never happened. Round and round. It is driving me CRAZY.
He acts like I am completely crazy or something. I feel like maybe I am overreacting. He doesn't want me to go to breakfast.. why am i freaking out? But it just seems like it is disrespectful to me. I feel like he is hiding me. But maybe these are my own insecurities that I am putting on him... this is what I mean. I don't know what to think or believe. I cannot stand this much longer. I should have told him not to come but I said fine. WHY? I have no idea.
I know I sound crazy. I hate this and I don't know what the hell I am really doing. It is like I really didn't want him to come over but I cannot stand the thought of him not here. I know this doesn't make ANY sense at all to feel this way but that is how I feel and it is so confusing to me.
I am afraid that you will all think I am nuts and I am embarrassed to tell you all of this but I just cannot figure him, myself or our relationship out. I am beyond frustrated.


Posts: 43 | Registered: Oct 2013
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he is toxic. he is being cruel. something is very wrong with him.
he is toxic. he is being cruel. something is very wrong with him.
he is toxic. he is being cruel. something is very wrong with him.
he is toxic. he is being cruel. something is very wrong with him.
he is toxic. he is being cruel. something is very wrong with him.
he is toxic. he is being cruel. something is very wrong with him.

STAY AWAY from him STAY AWAY from him STAY AWAY from him STAY AWAY from him STAY AWAY from him STAY AWAY from him


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8073 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:40 PM, November 9th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cycle of abuse = honeymoon phase; tension-building phase; blow-up. Lather, rinse, repeat.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8073 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Chrysalis123
♀ Member
Member # 27148
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Ambermoon.

You need help and I am glad you are posting.

This is not normal behavior from both of you. Very gently, and a velvet covered 2X4, you are selling yourself out for a man that treats you like shit on the bottom of his shoe. Why are you doing this to yourself?

You do know this behavior of his won't get better. He completely disrespects you and is probably getting a kick out of controlling you so thoroughly.

Try an experiment. Change the game. Say "No thanks" and walk away for 1 month. Watch what happens, especially within yourself. He will say all kinds of horrible stuff about you
when you step away for month. When it happens say, "I knew he would do that." and then carry on with your experiment.


Pretend he is off on vacation. Get on with your life and start dreaming about what YOU want. Any one can do anything for 1 month right? Try it and see what happens.


Donít get to the end of your life and find that you lived only the length of it; live the width of it as well.†

Posts: 2702 | Registered: Jan 2010
NoAnswers37
♀ Member
Member # 40592
Default  Posted: 4:12 AM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Amber,

I am going to try and say this as gently as possible, but please seek help.

You have received some amazing advice from the SI community, some of whom have sadly BTDT, however you still find yourself back together with him.

Read and re-read Gonnabe's post.

I also was in a relationship with someone who did not introduce me to his family - turns out he was a very different person around his Mother than what I knew...

We care about you and two of us posted to see if you were OK, because we thought your safety could be compromised. We did not know that instead you were asking him to move in with you. Very gently, please please think about what this is doing to you. This is YOUR life - it is not a rehearsal.

I hope I have not come across to harsh, but we just want you to be OK. Please re-read this whole thread and everything the others are saying.

ETA: Have a read of the first two lines of my signature.

[This message edited by NoAnswers37 at 4:14 AM, November 10th (Sunday)]


Live without pretending
Love without depending
Listen without defending
Speak without offending

Posts: 122 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: England
waiting2see
♀ Member
Member # 13767
Default  Posted: 4:28 AM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You asked him how he can ignore your feelings? Maybe he has learned from you that your feelings can be ignored.

I put up with a lot of shit from my XWS. When I look back I am horrified by what I tolerated. In post-D relationships, I have put up with far less but still occasionally what I would consider disrespect. Each time, I have to re-set. Get distance. Re-affirm that I must respect myself to the same extent I expect others to respect me.

To quote the quote "we teach others how to treat us." What have you taught this man? (Using the term "man" very loosely ).

He can cheat on you. (He did). And you will take him back. He can treat you roughly during sex and then convince you that you liked it. He won't move back with you .(does he have another free-ride elsewhere or is he just punishing you and conditioning you?) He won't introduce you to his family? (Maybe he isn't even with them but with someone else? Maybe they might tell you things about him he doesn't want you to know. Maybe you just don't matter enough to him--likely no one does). And you take him back.

What has he learned about you?

I am only analyzing his specific actions bc I know you are still in analysis mode. But the truth is the specifics don't matter. You must do the work, step by step, minute by minute to respect and love your self. Then no one will mistreat you bc you won't be around to take it.

The specifics don't matter. The lesson is simple: love yourself more. But bc it is simple doesn't make it easy. But you can do it. You have to do it. Life is too shirt for this shit.

Hugs


me: BS
him: XWS

Much of your pain is self-chosen. ~Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet, 1923

"It's not livin' that you're doin' if it feels like dyin." Ray Lamontagne


Posts: 1932 | Registered: Feb 2007
waiting2see
♀ Member
Member # 13767
Default  Posted: 4:28 AM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You asked him how he can ignore your feelings? Maybe he has learned from you that your feelings can be ignored.

I put up with a lot of shit from my XWS. When I look back I am horrified by what I tolerated. In post-D relationships, I have put up with far less but still occasionally what I would consider disrespect. Each time, I have to re-set. Get distance. Re-affirm that I must respect myself to the same extent I expect others to respect me.

To quote the quote "we teach others how to treat us." What have you taught this man? (Using the term "man" very loosely ).

He can cheat on you. (He did). And you will take him back. He can treat you roughly during sex and then convince you that you liked it. He won't move back with you .(does he have another free-ride elsewhere or is he just punishing you and conditioning you?) He won't introduce you to his family? (Maybe he isn't even with them but with someone else? Maybe they might tell you things about him he doesn't want you to know. Maybe you just don't matter enough to him--likely no one does). And you take him back.

What has he learned about you?

I am only analyzing his specific actions bc I know you are still in analysis mode. But the truth is the specifics don't matter. You must do the work, step by step, minute by minute to respect and love your self. Then no one will mistreat you bc you won't be around to take it.

The specifics don't matter. The lesson is simple: love yourself more. But bc it is simple doesn't make it easy. But you can do it. You have to do it. Life is too shirt for this shit.

Hugs


me: BS
him: XWS

Much of your pain is self-chosen. ~Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet, 1923

"It's not livin' that you're doin' if it feels like dyin." Ray Lamontagne


Posts: 1932 | Registered: Feb 2007
emotionalgirl
♀ Member
Member # 40184
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi ambermoon. I am so glad that you are safe but I admit I am distressed that you have let this man back into your life. None of us here can make you do anything, but we can all pray that you find the strength and insight to leave this situation sooner rather than later.

Wether you can see it or not, you are in a cycle of abuse and abusers do not just suddenly stop abusing! You can not love this man into changing or make him treat you better.

There is a story that tells of a woman who's spouse starts out yelling at her and she forgives him, progressively the abuse gets worse until he is beating her terribly. Everytime she believes his words that it won't happen again and that he has changed. The abuse continues until the last line is "today he killed me". Many abused women believe the abusers when they say it won't happen again, or they didn't mean it. Please consider calling an abused women's hotline, you just need to ask the experts what their take on your story is. I am sure they will say it IS abuse. Like I said before, when is enough enough? The first time he hits you with a closed fist?

Please consider the fact that you could end up pregnant and would be bringing an innocent child into this situation. Also if you were to have a child with this man, you would be tied to him forever.

Please stay safe, and post every so often so that we at least know that you are ok. ((( hugs)))


1st D day: Saturday July 20,2013
2nd D day....when the s**t really hit the fan and the truth came out.Saturday August 3,2013
3rd D day: Friday August 16, 2013...NC sent Friday Aug 30 4th D day NOV 11
Me: BS
Him: WH
Married 25 years....finally in R

Posts: 373 | Registered: Aug 2013
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

abusers do not just suddenly stop abusing!

Nor are they blatantly abusive 100% of the time.
Removing yourself from an emotionally abusive relationship is extremely difficult. It took me a loooong time to really *get* that my stbx was emotionally abusive.

Emotional abusers are experts at blame-shifting, *crazy-making,* and manipulation.

Knowledge is power, so educate yourself. Read.Read.Read. There are many websites that are geared towards dealing with abusive relationships. Dr. Phil's wife just rolled out another one.

And, for the love of ALL that is holy, pleasepleaseplease do NOT NOT NOT mention this website to him!!!!


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8073 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Ambermoon
New Member
Member # 41173
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want to start by thanking all of you for taking the time to reach out to me and continue to support me even though I have let him back in my life. Your support and advice has been life changing because it is opening my eyes to the truth of who this man is and also how lost I have become in this relationship.
I need all of you and SI so much right now.
And I hope that I can get continued support during this transition of becoming free from him.

I never once thought or viewed my relationship as abusive before and now that this seed has been planted my eyes are WIDE OPEN.
I know ultimately that I will have to break up with him and have no contact with him and even though every single person has told me that, I didn't understand why NC was so important until last night.
He did come over last night and it was very interesting to watch things unfold with my new awareness. I deliberately acted a certain way or said things to see how he would act and what he would say. I basically expirmented all night and it was pretty clear that he has been grooming me to behave in a certain way and manipulating me. He does have a way of turning things around and making me feel like I am the one at fault. It is done in a way that is so expertly played that I can see how I never would have seen this before. And I know he has the ability to make me change my mind about what I am even writing here today. So this is why NC is so important.
I do think this will be difficult for me to get away from him. I don't think he will just leave me alone. But I truly don't believe I am in danger.
So I am going to start putting my plan in place as of today. I am flipping between telling him today that I just cannot get past the cheating and that too much trust was lost (and this is true) so I am not going to see him anymore.
My other plan is that I am going to tell him that my work schedule is crazy this week and that I need to go to sleep early and cannot wait up for him to come home at midnight every night and that I don't want him to sleep here. He promised me that he was introducing me to his parents on Wednesday night and I know he will not do this so this will be my out. When he comes up with one of his many excuses I am going to just simply tell him that I am not happy anymore in the relationship and that I think it will be best for us to go our seperate ways.
I am not sure which way to go with ending it?
I know he will not take me serious and continue to text me and call me and try to get me back but I truly do not think he will do anything to hurt me in any way. He will eventually give up and I will just have to stay strong during the transition when he is begging and trying to manipulate me.
I am going to educate myself on abusive relationships because knowledge is power. But I think the most important factor is facing and healing my abandonment issues so I am ready when the fear of him not wanting me kicks in as I know it will.
I also need to remind myself that even though my finances are a mess and I have many things going on in my life that are causing me alot of stress - he is adding to it not making it any better. I don't need him. He is toxic. I must stay away from him.
Thank you for helping me see how destructive this man is and helping me break away. I am sure I will be posting here often looking for strength to see this through. I feel empowered right now and even a little happy because I do feel in my heart that I am done. They aren't just words anymore.


Posts: 43 | Registered: Oct 2013
NoAnswers37
♀ Member
Member # 40592
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honey you have made the right decision - so proud of you.

Seems like you really can see him now for what he is, so first step is breaking up with him and then we will all be here for you as you get used to your new independent life without manipulation and abuse. It will be quite the journey, but as
I said, we are here for you

Regarding how to break it off with him: My instinct is to tell him that you want nothing to do with him any more as he has mistreated you. Simple.

However I think it is worth waiting to hear from some others with their opinions seeing as he is not really that mentally stable.

What does everyone else think?


Live without pretending
Love without depending
Listen without defending
Speak without offending

Posts: 122 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: England
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, November 10th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Remember this: Every time that you tell him that you are done, and then take him back -- his *power* increases exponentially and makes it *that* much harder for you to get away next time. Like the mom who tells child "no" but then 'caves', kwim?

There is going to be no *good* way to do this break up other than to decide you are done, leave and do NOT look back.

"Our relationship doesn't work for me. I no longer want to see you." Done. Go dark.


Short and simple. Don't explain or try to *nice* it up at all -- he'll only 'argue' with you.
Don't wait for him to do <something> because then you open yourself up to hearing about how *awful* of a person you are and/or how *controlling* you are and he'll up end 'breaking up' with you.

Once your eyes are opened to what you are dealing with and how it's *been there* all along -- there is no going back.

Mile-high bitch boots on and steel rod inserted from butt to brain stem. You can do this, Moon.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8073 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Topic Posts: 51
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