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I originally posted this on the just found out forum and realized that may be the wrong place. When does an affair become an affair? Is it when the individuals admit feelings for each other or does all the buildup before hand count? Even if all the communication was not discussing a relationship but just having conversations with each other is that classified as part of the affair? I have received new insight that has set my mind ablaze all night.

My WH is in law enforcement and testing for a new position. This move up requires a new background check. He brought up yesterday that the background check may bring everything to light so how do we deal with it? What is my opinion of what has happened? I told him that my view is he is a having an affair and he is choosing to leave me for the other woman. He has admitted that our relationship was salvageable but he chooses not to. He then said “well what I meant is that any relationship is salvageable”. *enter eye roll here* He has said before and I quote “you don’t know how hard it is to know you could stop all the pain and not be willing to”. He even has said that he knows what we have could be salvageable but he is not willing to, he has moved on. He “loves me but is not in love with me’. He then said, “you know the affair didn’t cause our problems, our problems caused the affair’. I responded to him that no, he made a choice to have an affair.

Anyhow, he asked me if I would mention names. I told him that I want him to be successful in life for my children’s sake. But I cannot lie if I am asked a question. He told me to answer how I saw fit for the benefit of the household. *enter another eye roll here* I told him that people at work know more than he thinks. This surprised him and he asked me how I knew that and pressed me who had given me that information. I only told him how it had gotten back to me that higher ups knew more was going on then he admitted to them. He said that yeah, Sergeants had asked her point blank and while she didn’t lie she would say “her business is her business”. I asked him how long he expected to keep it a ‘secret’. He said they are only concerned about her ex finding out because he participates in the training my husband would be involved in for this new position. They are concerned he could make an attack look like a ‘training accident’. *my eyes hurt from rolling so much* besides, he is concerned about people being involved in their personal business. They both don’t see this as the conflict of interest that it is.

So what got my mind ablaze last night was during this conversation, he said that rumors had been going around since he was on graveyards but no nothing was going on then, they just talked. My husband was on graveyards before our daughter was born last December. After she was born is when things really started to go downhill. I realized that he probably was starting to emotionally disconnect at that point. While I may not have handled things well, how much of my emotional distress was because he was starting to lean towards this OW? Is it entirely possible that his relationship with her did cause some of our problems? So that is what brings me to my beginning question. When can a relationship be considered an affair?

I can offer you my opinion.

When ws starts confiding in ow, puts her feelings above his bs, communication (texts,emails,phone calls) that is private, hidden from bs,

My ws and I kind of went through a phase where he was distant, critical, basically checked out. Of course the first thing he said when confronted, we don't even have a marriage anymore...news to me. So I think the crush starts, then to justify to themselves the urge to pursue, the bs becomes annoying, bitchy...whatever stupid shit they tell themselves. I mean you are tried and hung without knowing you were on trial. This is my take anyway. My ws found fault with anything and everything I did , I guess they kind of need to be mad at yiu to feel better when they are pursuing ow.

Personally, I believe that affairs start the minute that the spouse starts to seek outside relief/support RATHER then going to their spouse.

This could be an unplanned ONS, or a very well hidden LTA, no matter what, it starts when the WS, instead of going to their BS with their issues, turns away from the BS and seeks it elsewhere.

The slippery slope can be long or short, but they all start the same way.

IMO the relationship becomes a affair when they start keeping secrets. These are kept either by omission or by out right lying.

PAs are easy to know when they start. But EAs are a different animal. I think they start when it becomes a secret.

While I may not have handled things well, how much of my emotional distress was because he was starting to lean towards this OW? Is it entirely possible that his relationship with her did cause some of our problems?

It is entirely certain that his relationship with her caused problems before the physical part of the affair started. It's likely that he was crossing lines with her right from the start of their relationship. If they were talking about personal things--especially their marriages, that was inappropriate and a slippery slope. Most AP's complain to each other about their spouses and flirt. Of course he would have to disconnect from you because he was already betraying you and hiding something from you. He also needed to make it your fault that he was getting close to another woman. He was probably critical, irritable, picking fights and withdrawing.

you don’t know how hard it is to know you could stop all the pain and not be willing to

What an arrogant SOB. He and OW deserve each other.

To sum up, if one spouse thinks they are entitled to a secret, special relationship on the side, that causes big problems in the marriage dynamic. A relationship is inappropriate as soon as you are saying or doing anything that you wouldn't say or do if your spouse was there. And I am so sorry that your husband has his head up his ass!

The moment they start doing/saying things they would never do/say in front of you.

I believe WH and OW's affair started over 2 years ago when they began hidden "innocent" flirty/sexy text messages. I caught them then and freaked, everyone assured me is was all in fun, no harm done. I never got over it, but moved on. She got married and immediately had a baby, they started up their "fun" less than 3 months after she returned from maternity leave, they became physical late April/Early May. WH would tell you that the A started this past spring. I disagree completely, it started 2+ years ago, while they laid the foundation and opened the doors to it.

So, to answer your question, I agree with No12turn2, the second they do something they don't want you to see. There was a saying I saw somewhere and it said something like, An affair doesn't start with a kiss or a touch, if you are deleting things so your spouse won't see, you are already there. That is how I feel. For me, it's when they are standing on the slippery slope and do not turn and run away, they just stay there to see if they will slide, whether consciously or not.

[This message edited by OldCow18 at 12:20 PM, November 20th (Wednesday)]

My FWH admitted to having feelings for the other woman in mid July of 2012. She at the time was flirtatious and would kid around with him all the time. Her a shift supervisor...he the boss. He 38...her 28. Then she transferred to a new store. She texted him non-stop. Questions about work...whining about others not liking her...blah...blah...blah (needy)

He reciprocated. Well over a 1,000 texts to each other at all hrs for one month. They went out with her new boss (who helped her be with him) twice during that month drinking as "Work friends". They stayed out till 2am and 4am. This is August now.

The day after labor day...me suspicious...I checked his phone to see a text from him telling her he had an emotional connection with her. Do you? highschool bullshit puppy love crap...we have to stop talking...I want to work on my marriage...I think highly of you and wish the best for you and wish we can get to know each other better...HER...yes...okay...what will you tell your wife...I am afraid she is going to ruin my life..blah...blah...blah.

In my book and his...the affair started when he realized he liked her and chose to get to know her better. When they started to flirt with each other.

BTW...most of the texts were about work...or the kids...no mushy love crap or sexting...

Still an A...he chose to go after something he liked...(later it wasn't about her...just the attention he said) He didn't notice her for months till she started flirting.

[This message edited by hopefulmother at 12:29 PM, November 20th (Wednesday)]

My Ex still thinks he was honorable because he left me before it became a PA - um, well, he didn't leave me, i had to confront him and force the truth out of him. He said the same "she isn't the cause" and poor crushed me believed him.

But no, she isn't the cause, he is. It took me a long time to even admit that he was actually having an EA - i was so snowed. He had secret lunches and deleted text messages - it was an EA.

So, the moment they start hiding, it crosses the lines.

I love that your WH is seeing a few consequences of his tru lurve.

Ok that is what I was thinking. Gosh it was like a light bulb going on. From what I get, most of it was her getting his advice on her problems. He even would tell me about things sometimes and I was too blind to see that he was building and emotional attachment.

Now he is texting me that the OW is flipping out about someone meddling in their personal business and she may need to file for hostile work environment. They need to know the name of who I got this info from because they need to deal with it on a personal level so it doesn't blow up. I am not saying anything. You say you haven't slept with her so it is not really an affair than what are you really afraid of? If this guy is so dangerous why don't you call the police? Please, I think they are worried about not getting promotions. Not my problem. Choices have consequences...

Sorry for your pain, but am I understanding that the OW's BH doesn't know?

Why not? That is one of the best ways to stop the A, expose expose expose!

IMO, a training accident (nonlethal and no permanent damage done) may just be a consequence KWIM?

But to answer your question, I feel an affair begins when the WS looks at a member of the opposite sex and starts to wonder "what if..." or "if only I was single..."

There has to be intent behind the flirt/text/whatever.

OW wasn't ever married to the man and supposedly she was already out when she started a relationship with my WH. He is her ex. He is a father of her 4th child.

What is KWIM Whiteflower? Sorry I am still learning the abbreviations

I have never heard of a spouse saying, "I love you but I'm not in love with you" unless he/she was having an affair.

It's affair-speak. Translation: I'm cheating but it's not my fault.

What is KWIM Whiteflower?

I am not Whiteflower but I can translate. KWIM means "Know What I Mean". Yeah, that one and KISA baffled me for awhile, too, Rabecca.

BTW, boo fucking hoo on the poor widdle dumsel in distress OW that doesn't want any one in her business. Really? Should have thought about that when you entered someone else's marrige.

Hells no, you don't need to give up your source ever, Rabecca. In fact, please don't.

BTW...most of the texts were about work...or the kids...no mushy love crap or sexting

The Ow works for my husband. Their texts were mostly about work, nothing sexual at all but he loved to make her laugh. So there was some friendly banter back and forth, lots of smiley faces. I think they would use any reason they could think of to text each other. I could only recover 2 months worth of texts but his bills show them texting up to 1400 times a month.

My husband seems to think that the fact that their messages were not sexual means it wasn't an actual EA but I disagree. If it was just business, why keep it a secret? Why delete it? Why list her as someone else under his contact list?

Ok and KSIA?

Scubachick, yeah that all is pretty suspicious. Especially listing her under a different name? If you have nothing to hide why are you hiding things?

Yeah, I fully know my WH is having an EA because he moved out. It was just interesting the new information about how long communication was going on. It brought to light things that have been eating at me that I didn't understand. I have new clarity and am actually able to stop blaming myself. I know I shouldn't have been in the first place but it is one of those easier said than done things for me. I want to shake him and say 'Why would your coworkers think something was going on if you were not giving the appearance? If an affair is not your intention, just hearing people talk like that should have clued you in that your interactions were crossing a line.' I just get more and more baffled at how stupid they get when they are in the fog. It is crystal clear to everyone else. Nothing good comes from things done in secret or deceit, even if it is only lies of omission.

[This message edited by Rabecca at 3:11 PM, November 20th (Wednesday)]

On second thought...before it started...they had to been doing a lot of flirting and teasing each other before he realized he liked her and texted her back....so

I think it was an affair when they flirted and teased each other just as co-worker friends. Because, I sure as Hell know he would never flirt or tease with her in my presence. Flirting and teasing a co-worker back and forth in itself makes up some type of inappropriate relationship. So, any ongoing actions they would never do in front of you?

F*&$ I hate that co-worker affair crap!

Lol. kISA is "Knight In Shining Armor"... something a lot of way wards have in common sad to say.

And frankly the above post is correct.... your DID (damsel in distress) OW should have considered all ramifications prior to engaging in an inappropriate relationship with a man who wasn't available. Too bad for her.

Please do NOT reveal your sources.