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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 16
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've been back on the POSER rage train lately. 90% of the people my wife and I work with are going to a Christmas party at his fucking house, as he's an ex-coworker. We tried to keep the A as secret as possible, but some people know some vague stuff...I just have that sinking feeling that: [all those people] + [OM's presence] x [booze] - [my wife and I's conspicuous absence] = a shit storm.

Also, I can see an EA (and then probably a PA) developing at work between one of my supervisors and one of my coworkers (who ALREADY had an EA/PA with another married woman). Just seeing it on a daily basis is driving me fucking bugnuts. He's a tattoo artist in his spare time, and my supervisor went over to his house and got a tattoo from him....which is almost certainly a violation of company policy. I thought about anonymously reporting it to HR (because she DOES treat him differently), but part of me says it's none of my business. Then again, that's what several people who knew about my wife's EA/PA said to themselves as well.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1616 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

live in their comfortable little bubbles

FP
I hear what your saying.
Most find this as the preferable going-through-life position.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 7:56 PM, December 11th (Wednesday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...I realized that I had to stop projecting my own values and thoughts on my WW... did not have her FOO, did not develope the same denial/conflict avoidant/people pleasing coping skills, and am not prone to seek superficial validation outside of the marriage. I also didn't come into our marriage with the fear of intimacy and commitment that she brought after a childhood of seeing adults screw things up royally...

^^^ This is where I am at. SI sets the bar high for R in my opinion. I am trying to learn to look at my WW's actions through the lens of her abilities and FOO, not based on me wanting some magic elixir from that makes me feel better and explains everything after a shot.

There is no amount of 'work' by the WW that will make the betrayal go away. Plus, when you read the stories of allatsea or abbandad, you see a WW that has completely transmorphed into someone strange. Like a switch was flipped, and they are someone different, personality and all. Unrecognizable. If these WWs are not recognizable, what makes us think that our WW out of the fog an d trying to R will be able to recognize who they were? Or even explain?

But the thought of spending more time trapped in this shithole also seems unbearable.
^^^WB, this is in your head. You are not in a shit-hole. A lot of average blokes out there would like to trade up to what you got. You simply want something different than what you have. Hell, we all do. This is a tough time of year with shorter days and holiday triggers. I think your WW calling folks for help is a good sign. I understand how you feel - and hope you pull through one way or another.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also, I can see an EA (and then probably a PA) developing at work between one of my supervisors and one of my coworkers (who ALREADY had an EA/PA with another married woman). Just seeing it on a daily basis is driving me fucking bugnuts. He's a tattoo artist in his spare time, and my supervisor went over to his house and got a tattoo from him

Sounds like you have a very interesting career FP...don't think I could of ever came up with that scenario in 25 years.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
reallyscrewedup7
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Member # 30825
Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

While I fully concur that projecting yourself onto your WW is a disaster waiting to happen, I completely disagree with what I perceive is the tone that you need to "accept" your WW because she is who she is and that your values and your beliefs must be subjugated to the woodshed.

I truly hope I am reading that wrong, but that is my interpretation of the underlying theme we are trying to kick around.

Under no circumstances would I ever advise anyone to put your values aside to accept your wife's fuckeduppedness, even if you perceive she is "trying." Knowing what hill you are willing to die on is critical, not just for leadership, but for a fulfilling life. Failure to fight for yourself leads to bad things. We know that all too well.

Look, whether we like it or not, we HAVE already sacrificed our values by taking back our cheating wives. How many of us just "knew" that we would divorce them if they screwed around? Yet, we are here, in this special little enigma of a world where we sacrificed a core belief (nonacceptance of betrayal) for what we perceived as a greater core belief (whether it was for love, commitment to marriage or even the well being of the children).

So please proceed with development of empathy and look at the world from different perspectives. It may help you connect with your wives. But never for a second waiver on your beliefs ever again. Strong boundaries, inner strength, and clear vision are something that BHs have to develop for our own well being. We need to learn never to sacrifice them on the alter of "marriage."

Maybe we can never respect our wives the way we did or wanted to, but if we don't respect ourselves first, ain't no healing in sight for you or the marriage.


Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:39 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like you have a very interesting career FP...don't think I could of ever came up with that scenario in 25 years.
I work with the fucking dregs, Tred. Restaurant industry. I'm trying to get out, not so easy.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1616 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you should accept your WW for who she is and who she is becoming.

Just because you accept her, doesn't mean you have to stay with her.

My comments are about avoiding false expectations. False expectations are the bane of marriage...and marriage recovery.

Our WWs had a compliment of false expectations about marriage that we did not meet, to our perceived by them discredit.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:06 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

rsu7, thought provoking. Hadn't really considered the fact that I was compromising my own value system before. I *knew* it, but didn't *know* it. Thanks for putting that itch where I could scratch it.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2071 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you should accept your WW for who she is and who she is becoming.

About a year after dday FWW started to recognize her personal issues and owned most all of her A-crap. She was certainly making progress, but still had serious issues from her ACOA background and BPD traits. I moved out until she agreed to start working on these issues with our MC/IC. She has improved significantly since then, but the issues were so many and so deep, that we still do not have a have a healthy M. There is a difference between healthier and healthy.

I have learned a lot about relationships, communication, M dynamics, ACOA, sexual abuse, and psychology since dday; way more than I ever wanted to know. It is not just SI that sets a high bar for R, it is me too. I want the potential I can see now. I want a partner who more closely matches my awareness and skills in relationship dynamics. I am a very different person than the young man FWW married, and the person I M’d then is no longer acceptable to me as a partner. I knew soon after dday that if I put in the effort to R I wanted a great M, not just an acceptable one.

The truth is I have what I suspect many would condsider an acceptable M now. She no longer (rarely) blames me for all that is wrong in her life. She does not nag me. She rarely acts out from her BPD traits. Overall she was a good mother and balanced my parenting style well, we have great kids. She is reaching out to my parents and others to repair damaged relationships. What I do not have is a partner in life, we are more like roommates.

Experience has taught me that when I apply pressure or leave, it provides the motivation for her to work on her issues with renewed vigor, or to step up in meeting my needs. With her BPD traits, fear of abandonment I suspect plays into this. I know this is not how it should be, but until we are at a point where D is a more palatable option it makes life a bit better. It may be possible that she continues to improve enough in the few years until D becomes more possible, or that our relationship will improve to the point D will not be a consideration.

I have restrained from creating a lot of conflict because I know that shame and feeling inadequate is a big part of her depression and problem, but in doing so I have enabled her to not meet my needs and created resentment in my feelings towards her. I am feeling that I have little to lose is pushing and creating conflict around the issues that are a problem for me in the M. I am not happy with the M and would leave if D were financially feasible. I feel that she is happy enough in the M, and feels safe since I bring in 80%+ of the income and take care of all the financial and maintenance issues. If I start to press for my needs and she steps up to meet them great. If not, at least then maybe she will be as unhappy as I in the M, and it will motivate her to work towards getting a job and to a place where she can afford to leave me.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 7:48 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Look, whether we like it or not, we HAVE already sacrificed our values by taking back our cheating wives. How many of us just "knew" that we would divorce them if they screwed around? Yet, we are here, in this special little enigma of a world where we sacrificed a core belief (nonacceptance of betrayal) for what we perceived as a greater core belief (whether it was for love, commitment to marriage or even the well being of the children).

great perspective-and the reason behind the turmoil I feel inside since dday. It is always a dealbreaker to me, but here I am with two kids to feed, CS is draconinan here-I would have to live on less than $900/month if I D.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Look, whether we like it or not, we HAVE already sacrificed our values by taking back our cheating wives. How many of us just "knew" that we would divorce them if they screwed around? Yet, we are here, in this special little enigma of a world where we sacrificed a core belief (nonacceptance of betrayal) for what we perceived as a greater core belief (whether it was for love, commitment to marriage or even the well being of the children).

I feel compelled to disagree because my values of fidelity were not compromised, hers were.

I can't say whether or not I knew I'd divorce her before that. Maybe at one point sure, then later on no, but that stuff changes.

I still don't accept her betrayal, and I don't think any other guy here has either. I think a lot of us feel ashamed and insecure and question the choice to stay - I don't see that as a compromise of values though. It's an acknowledgement of the compromise someone else made.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7116 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
LetMeRollIt
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Member # 41189
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

May I just add, that I agree with pretty much everything. It's easy when your brain flips every other day…

I've got a remorseful WW, who is visibly doing her best to communicate, who answers my questions, who's apologies get more thorough every couple weeks….

And I don't know if its enough. I know it will take time…



D day- June 30, 2013
Me - BS
Married 15 years
5 year old child
Attempting R as of Oct. 1 2013

"Cry, and let your soul be cleansed of a love that turned to carnage." - Christy Brown


Posts: 98 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've gone back and caught up a little on what has been happening in the Menz thread. I've been absent for a couple months.

I'm sorry SDWB that you've found yourself done, but my story is remarkably similar. You had one post that I know I could have written word for word describing your efforts initially after D-day all the way up until Thanksgiving when you realized that you were done. It was exactly my experience.

I kept trying to convince myself that my WW's efforts were enough or that I could repair the M myself. At least for awhile. For me the last straw was when my WW broke NC for the 10th time back in February and she couldn't understand how damaging that action was to our M. I knew then that I was done. Even then it took me IC and about another 6 months to throw in the towel. But your posts resonate with me and I feel your pain.

It has been a little strange for me to be back: reading and posting. I want to be able to offer support, encouragement and advice if appropriate because I depended on the exact same things for awhile. SI and it's members, both betrayed and wayward, have been extremely helpful. At the same time, there is just a sense of despair or angst I feel reading the struggles of my fellow BM. I had left the world of infidelity behind for a few months. It doesn't hold the same weight as it once did in my life, but it's like the scar on Harry Potter's forehead that hurts him whenever he's around the dark Lord. The topic of infidelity will likely always cause that reaction in me to a certain extent. I guess my point is that the pain of it all went a way for awhile and I can see a future where its impact on me personally is minimal. It continues to affect my children and unfortunately for them that affect will likely be lifelong.

My hope to all is to find peace. Peace with a remorseful wife and full reconciliation or peace to move forward with D. I can't imagine the ongoing hell of living with a WW that I had lost respect or love for. I hope none of you find yourself there and if you do I hope it is short lived. I've felt the peace so I can assure you that it is possible.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 9:33 AM, December 12th (Thursday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I completely disagree with what I perceive is the tone that you need to "accept" your WW because she is who she is and that your values and your beliefs must be subjugated to the woodshed.

You don't have to accept that your WW is who she is, but it's a good idea if you want to avoid future hurt and pain.

And your values and beliefs should definitely not be subjugated to the woodshed. In fact, post D-Day is when a BS's values are often tested like never before. Staying faithful even after your wife just shit all over your wedding vows is one big example of a values test. Then there are conflicting values - forgiveness v. cheating-is-a-dealbreaker being a big one that BM's face. Fun stuff.

My point is that your wife is fucked up. She thought it was ok to have sex with another man while married to you. At best, that suggests emotional immaturity and personality defects, such as selfishness and entitlement. If you are a faithful husband who takes his vows seriously, then you almost certainly hold yourself to higher standards.

Like it or not, THAT's the person we married. She has issues. If you choose to R with someone like that, it's best to not lose sight of the fact that she has issues that probably go back long before you ever met her, she thought that having sex with someone other than her husband was an acceptable lifestyle choice, and her issues are going to affect the way she relates to you during the R process. We can project our own ways of doing things on our WWs all we want, but that's a recipe for failure IMO. The affair has already proven that we are very different people.

Manage expectations.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
slater13
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Member # 39008
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't post much but I read the thread daily. Lately, I think the thread is making great points.

WB- Our DDays were the same day, so I have always followed your situation. I am sorry to here how things have progressed, but I am very close to where you are so I get it.

The difference I think is that my FWW has committed to MC/IC. She does a shit job of communucating with me, but we are working on that. Last week, my IC (oddly the husband of our MC) made a point to tell me how unique my wife was. He said, look, almost no one makes it this far. Almost 2 years out and she still comes to MC, still has patience towards your healing. That is a lot for someone to handle. I have seen thousands of these cases and it is very rare for the wayward to stick it out this long and keep working.. he went on to say " I know you want her to do more, and you are right, she can do more, but appreciate that she is trying and still fighting."

He is right, I think. Not every WW can be like some of the superstars on SI. They all have different demons to overcome. Recently, my IC suggested that since my WW has trouble showing me that she loves me, that I ask her to do 1 thing for me each week. No expectations she will do it, just a suggestion to her. It has been 4 weeks and she has done every one.

But I struggle too. I had the worst panick attack 3 days ago. I wrestle daily with idea that she has not told me everything..hell just the idea of her having a 3yr LTA.

Luckily I have never met the guy, he lives half way across the country. I don't know how you all do it when you have to see him or even be tempted to go over to his house and kick his ass.


Re: the cost of forgiveness and our values- about a year ago I ran across this and it really affected me. i shared it with my FWW as well. There is a COST to Forgive.

https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/cost-of-forgiving-infidelity?utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_medium=email_09_25&utm_source=list_MC&utm_content=cost-forgiveness&utm_term=link_visible


[This message edited by slater13 at 9:59 AM, December 12th (Thursday)]


The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character

Posts: 153 | Registered: Apr 2013
Brandon808
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Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Slater,
I'm glad to hear that. It sounds you and your WW have very good IC/MC. Sounds like your WW is trying and making progress, however gradual that progress may be.

My xww claimed to want R and that she would do whatever it took to fix it. However, she was too broken. Not too broken to fix herself per se. I simply looked at how long and how much effort it would have taken for me to hold on while she fixed her crap. I thought about what it would have been like for me to monitor her progress and all of that. I thought about it and realized that it might have been somewhat possible to R but it was dealbreaker for me. I wanted to put that effort into me. My caveat to this is that this decision came after the 2nd dday. I rugswept the 1st dday.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 3365 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the big things like NC, STD testing, set up MC/IC appointments, full transparency, passwords, block calls, etc. Those are non-negotiable dealbreakers, to me at least. I was referring to the things that have often tripped me up these past months, like not creating an SI profile, not reading enough self-help books, not always seeming to be remorseful, or as remorseful as I would like, trickle truth, that sort of thing.

I get hung up on that stuff. Then I remind myself what she did and what she has done post D Day to improve herself and help me heal. Seeing my blushing bride for who she really is (or who she turned out to be) instead of the idealized image that allowed me to ignore obvious affair signs for so long is helpful to me. When I don't do that, I spiral downwards and you get the kind of posts from me that you saw just before T-Giving.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
lordhasaplan?
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Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Slater
I agree with that article. Very good, the cost is real. I agree, finding the grace to move past this requires yeoman’s effort even with a spouse who owns it and is willing to go through what it takes to repair. My W is 3 years out and still going to biweekly IC. Many on this thread have spouses who won’t do the work and really go out of their way to make the cost impossible to surmount. Then you r stuck staying for purely utilitarian reasons, $$$, Kids, whatever but the relationship with the spouse isn’t worth giving up more of yourself for. I respect those who can stay married and deal daily with an unremorseful spouse, its death by a million paper cuts and the other party thinks the grace is cheap or not warranted because of their self-delusional fixation on their needs or dysfunction. I don’t know if I could have the strength some of these men have. We are lucky to have to struggle with this giving of grace to someone who seems to be holding up their end of the bargain. If not, the paper cuts would be lethal, sucks for those men holding to their values and integrity in the face of a non-remorseful spouse. That’s why I come to this thread. I am grateful for a glimpse into their souls and experience. they give me hope that I can be as strong.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10)

Posts: 1797 | Registered: Nov 2010
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WB and I were in a similar frame of mind pre-Thanksgiving. The difference is he gave reconciliation 2 years, and I'm still shy of 10 months. 2 years is an honorable effort, especially with little ones involved. Less than 10 months was not enough of an effort, at least in my case. I have a wife who seems remorseful 95% of the time. The remaining 5% I attribute to her messedupness, but that's why we're here in the first place.

Not all but many WS I think go into what my WW calls *damage control* mode soon after Dday. They do some work that makes things look promising. The are *sorry* they hurt you. They open their email accounts sometimes grudgingly but they do it. But if you pay attention there is a taste of resentment in many of their actions.

Then after awhile these WS feel they had done enough and they think you should be *over it*. And gradually they slide back into their old habits. Their boundaries ease. The transparency starts to close down. They start to lie about trivial things. And things return to their view of *normal*.

Beware of that.

I think SOME WS can make permanent changes. But many cant.

And sometimes YEARS later you will find yourself triggering. I do this when old LTA behavior shows up again. And your WW will wonder why your not *over it*.

For me. This stuff never goes away. To make us feel really safe in our decision to R and stay M the changes our WW make have to be permanent.

The thing is that I have come to believe that it is impossible to change who we are at a core level. We are born who we are. Experiences in early childhood shape us. And then we are set in cement. All that we can hope for is a change in habits and behavior.

A alcoholic will always want his drink. A drug addict will always want the needle. A gambler will always want to risk it all on long odds. And I think a cheater will always have the potential for temptation to cheat again.

All that we can hope for is that habits and behavior that was learnt after Dday will stick and will guard against it happening again.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
1985
♂ Member
Member # 28171
Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal, you said you are going to try the Wonderboy approach of giving Reconciliation a try for 2 years and then said: If that works I will try the 1985 and MoreWould approach and give it several decades.
Damn, man. When you put it that way it makes me realize how old I've become. And then it makes me realize how long I have lived with this. Which in turn makes me ask myself -- am I a Hero or a SuperDuperDumbShit (which of course would be the opposite of a SuperDuperWonderBoy).
I guess I will choose hero since I don't want to think of myself as SDDS.
Seriously, your post was insightful and I am happy for you that you feel back on track. Happy Holidays to all.


Me-BH 63
Her-fWW 63
DDay: June 1985. 5 years after A ended
DDay June, 1985
DDay June 1985
Still married - actually in love
2 grown kids; 4 grandkids

Posts: 589 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest - large city
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