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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 16
slater13
♂ Member
Member # 39008
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP- That is great news! That is REAL progression. She is right, you know. She is lucky you stuck around.

Merlin- please don't do anything rash. I can't imagine what you are going through. I would try to focus my efforts on the things that really matter in life- your relationship with your kids. You can be a huge positive influence in their lives when they need it most. Keep being their rock- their hero. Better days are ahead!

[This message edited by slater13 at 10:50 AM, December 18th (Wednesday)]


The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character

Posts: 153 | Registered: Apr 2013
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know I am spitting into the wind. The accepted narrative is all too clear. But I don't care. You cheat because you want to cheat. You find it thrilling and for whatever reason, you justify it to yourself. If it means vilifying your spouse, you are going to do it because it is what you want. It is just pretty easy to be a soulless bitch and get a cold response from your husband. Then you can "say" hey, he was mean, I need to hop on another man's dick and make it okay.

For a long time I have been pushing this view. WW did it because she wanted to and she thought she could get away with it. Period. End of story.

To many people want to make things more complicated than they are. The simplest explanation is usually the one closest to the truth.

Merlin.

My ex-W will use any and all divorce law to strip the last financial security we built up over a 24-year marriage so she can spend the money on nothing.

The latest court order allowed her to dissolve whole life insurance 'cash value' (thus canceling the policy). The best I could do was to have the court put the proceeds in trust for educational expenses for our three kids. I now have no life insurance.

Before that, it was retirement benefits and pensions. And before that, using inflated income numbers from my self-employment, established permanent alimony at over $3,000/mth even though my business has all but collapsed and she earns over $100,000/yr as a state employee and has gold-plated current and retirement benefits. Meanwhile, my self-employment allows me to save nothing, even for my own retirement.

She has little to do with our children but gets $1,600/mth in child support. I am a full-time single parent for our 3 children - living expenses, college costs - all of it.

Like Mr.Kite THIS is why I stay in the M. If I were to D WW she would gain most everything I worked for. Much of it I earned while she was out fucking around with OM. So she gets this vacation with OM. AND gets rewarded for it.

And sadly it isnt just NJ that shits on the man in a D. It happens pretty much everywhere. The wife could be a crack whore axe murderer and she still will likely end up with custody of the kids and get a handsome income from alimony and child support. I also have friends that have gone through a D and when the wife didnt want the kids my friends took them on full time.. and still had to pay child support to their x-wife.

So for me. It is best to stay in a unsatisfying M with WW. At least we are friendly with each other and I dont think she is running around getting boned by anyone else. You never know though.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Merlin
♂ Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Slater,

The belief that one solid parent can deliver children to a good place in life is about all that keeps me going.

Once that looks like a decent possibility, I will be in the wind.

I will have spent my life doing my best for family, only to go outlaw in my retirement.

Life is funny.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1106 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just want to send out strength to those that are or feel trapped in their M because of the divorce laws. It has to be a difficult place to find yourself. I felt trapped for a little over a year. I'm fortunate to live in a conservative state and D here isn't a life sentence.

I am looking to share half of everything which sure isn't fair, but there is no alimony in my state and the child support isn't awful since I have joint custody.

Having a WW is hard enough without the courts dictating your life and limiting your choices. Strength brothers.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 3:21 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
omgnome
♂ Member
Member # 36888
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I've been a lurker here in the forum for a long while. I hope you guys don't mind, but I need somewhere to vent and my procrastination has left me without an IC so far. I know I need to get it taken care of. My profile is pretty decent, but I haven't updated it anytime lately and since the last time I updated it my wife hadn't done any work and so I seperated from her at the beginning of September. When I moved out I was ready to divorce her, she started counseling so I decided to give it a little more time to see if anything would happen that would sway me back to the marriage.

Well that was enough to spur her into action and so a year and a half after DDay 1 and a year and a few months after DDay 2 she started counseling. She has been going over the last three months and occasionally I will be invited in to discuss things. I have made it clear that I view this counselor as her IC and not my MC. In our marriage we are seperated and I have not filed for divorce.

Last night I visited her counseling session. This is the third time I think I have been invited and it just sorta screwed my head up. Here is some of the things that bothered me.

In the last visit I thought he had made some sort of comment about my wive's 2 EAs being partially my fault. I figured I must have mistaken what he said or misinterpreted it. Nope, last night he said it again and I asked him to clarify. Well he did and stated that it was partially my fault because my wife was unhappy and felt she had to get her needs outside the marriage. I responded to that and told him that it was garbage or bullshit or even both. I explained that yes, I may have missed signs that I was not as great in the marriage as I thought I was and I would own that, but I refused to own any part of my wife's affairs. I even asked him point blank that if I decided to have an affair that night if it would be partially my wife's fault. He said yes, that might have been when I told him I thought that was bullshit.

I also got hit with a ton of blameshifting from my wife about how when she was doing this that I was always out playing sports. The extent of my sporting career in our marriage was 3 Rugby games (cracked ribs in two of them ending those seasons) a one day rugby tournament and pratcies once night a week during the summer (maybe 10 total over two years), two softball games for a work team (to network within the company, I never stayed around for the beer drinking) and Soccer games at 9 o clock on Sunday nights over the winter. When I called her on it that my sporting career wasn't that time intensive she complained that I was on the computer too much. Well I take online classes for school, and when I lived with her still I would often telecommute to work because it was a 150 mile round trip commute. So if I wasn't well or if the weather sucked I worked from home. When work got too busy I would come home spend family time, then when everyone went to bed remote in from home to finish work. Quite often not finishing the work until noon the next day.

Another bone I have is that my wife is upset that I have not scheduled marriage counseling. I had told her I would have it done by the beginning of December. Well I haven't done it yet. I'm a terrible procrastinator and just haven't done it. I have a list f counselors approved by insurance but still haven't done it. Because I'm two week's late with getting it done she treats it as a huge affront and that it means I don't care. I told her it bothered me that two weeks was such a big deal to her when I told her on DDay 2 that I needed her to attend counseling and it took over a year for her to go to counseling. She said she didn't realize it was important and that if I would have told her more that it was important that she would have done it earlier. She said she thought everything was okay because I didn't really talk about it. Never mind that every time I did she would break down into tears and get upset and ask why I wasn't over it yet.

Another issue that got brought up is how I'm comparing her to my brother. My brother has been married around 10 years, before he was married he got caught cheating (I ended up being the one that informed his then girlfriend now wife). Well about a year ago it came up again that he might be cheating again. I told his now wife and it turns out months later that he got caught. Well he supposedly was on the straight and narrow since then doing counseling and everything, but may have been up to old habits again this last weekend, and again I informed his wife (this is now three times I had to inform her, it pisses me off that I hear bits and pieces of this from family members but none of them have the guts to say anything to her about it but that's a different story.) So my wife is upset at me because she thinks that I am completely forgiving my brother for what he is doings. I told her just that I hoped he could come to his senses and realize what he was doing to his wife. She thinks that it's unfair of me to draw comparisons with my brothers PAs and her EAs. I try to tell her that it's similar to what we are going through due to the secrecy and lack of trust. She thinks I'm being unreasonable.

This point is nice and quick. They told me last time that online support groups (I'm talking SI here) aren't that worthwhile. How can I REALLY know that these people aren't just lying and making things up. Yeah whatever, I'm willing to bet that not every single story here on the forum is true, but I have to believe that's a tiny minority. Anyways last night they were talking about all the great online resources, and I'm sitting there going WTF?


So another bit where I get told I'm wrong requires a little back story. Both of her EAs were with coworkers in their late 20s early 30s, she kept it as secret as she could deleting evidence and purposely avoiding ways that had gotten her caught before. Well I tried to keep an eye on her communications and keep my sources quiet so she can't discover them. Well I noticed that she was emailing another male colleague about our marriage issues, he was being negative about me and she wasn't backing me up at all, just letting him talk trash. I saw some IM go back and forth between them as well at work. At the same time I see that she is texting him hundreds and hundreds of messages and two of my tracking sources she doesn't know I know about (GPS and photos on her phone) both go dark all at the same time. Well once day when I go to visit her I ask to see her phone because I had seen she had sent a lot of texts to this one coworker who fit the MO for her last two affairs. Well I check her phone and they are all deleted. In the past I set up her phone so it doesn't auto delete texts so that wasn't the issue. I asked her what happened to the texts and she said she was deleting texts to people she really didn't contact any more. I could check another one of her friends she didn't talk to much and I could see I had deleted those as well. Well that female friend still had all her texts there. She also had texts to people she hadn't contacted in the last year even. She then thinks it's unreasonable of me to think that her texts would be anything but honorable. She claims that because she had set this guy up with one of her friends and that the texts were all about the breakup between her friend and coworker. It sure would have been nice to see the proof that was true and build up the trust bank instead of shattering it.

I also get told by her counselor that I can't keep "picking at the scab" by bringing up her affairs. I shouldn't be comparing her current behavior to what she did in the past, that I need to let it go. Never mind the fact that I never addressed it in the past with her. They claim that I wasn't open enough in the past, and now that I bring up how things make me feel or things that have bothered me for the last year that I shouldn't say anything about it because it's punishing her.

My final bone of contention is that I have asked my wife for a timeline. She gave me a letter a long time ago that I feel wasn't really complete as it didn't cover anything that I had already discovered. I feel it in my gut that there is more to her EAs than what I have discovered, but she won't give concrete times and won't go into detail about what they discussed. Her IC last night told her that she didn't need to give me a timeline, that it was more of me "picking at the scabs". She looked over and told me that she wasn't going to give me a timeline that if it was something I was going to divorce her over than it was "on me".

Argh, sorry for venting here so much. I think her counselor is full of crap, I told her as much in an email today. It just frustrates me. It almost makes me feel like I got RL trolled last night. I don't expect you guys to actually read through all this crap, but it just feels a bit nicer for me to get this out of my head and vent.


TLDR - I'm just sitting here bitching, moaning, and venting almost journaling, thanks for letting me vent a bit


BS

Posts: 198 | Registered: Sep 2012
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

your IC is wrong IMO-I take no credit for my fWW's As-read up a few posts to the one razor wrote-she wanted to is the real reason.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My view is that counselors can do more harm than good. And your WWs IC is a prime example of that.

They read a book or 2 and got a nice little diploma on the wall. They lack any real feeling for what affairs are about. They seek a cause that can be cured easily. They blame the BS or the M (kinda one and the same there) because its easy AND the WS readily buys into it.

Me and WW went together to several MCs. And I went alone to a couple ICs. NONE. NADA. ZERO. of them had a fucking clue. At best it was a waste of time. At worst when bad or wrong advice is given (like with your WW IC) the IC can really be a detriment to any kind of recovery.

Just my opinion of course.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Our MC's take on this subject: my wife had an A because of a lack of character and integrity.

She said it right in front of my wife, and in a compassionate way that only she could pull off. My wife didn't disagree or even seem offended. Maybe that's something they already were talking about in IC.

That seems to run along the same lines as Razor's take - she did it because she wanted to and thought she could get away with it. Lack of character and integrity makes that mindset impossible. I couldn't do it - not because I wouldn't find a little variety with a nice-looking woman pleasurable after 19 years of monogamy - because I can't figure out a way to do it without ME finding out about it.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I couldn't do it - not because I wouldn't find a little variety with a nice-looking woman pleasurable after 19 years of monogamy - because I can't figure out a way to do it without ME finding out about it.


Well there we go again. Getting in our own way.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

omgnome - read through the whole post. Just write as much as you need to. We're here for you.

On the counseling - some are good and helpful while others are not. In our MC sessions Mrs. Kite usually broke down sobbing and then someone would rush over to give her a tissue and pat her on the head. That's why I quit going. A complete waste of time. No one ever held her feet to the fire and told her to be accountable for her actions. I'm sure there are good counselors out there, it's just that I've never met one.

A good way to avoid accountability is to create diversions, distractions, and blameshifting. It seems from what you wrote that this is what's going on. It's like the flak used in anti-aircraft warfare: "All measures designed to nullify or reduce the effectiveness of hostile air action." It seems that your WW feels she's in a position to bargain over this situation. As long as she continues to feel that's the case, and as long as she has a counselor who puts blame on you, things might not change for the better.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
foundoutlater
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Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well Iíve been busy and missed a bunch here Ė you guys are rockin it. Just loved the jjct wordplay and the tune. When I read omgnomeís post it struck a chord because it was on my mind.

This morning for no particular reason I was thinking about why we sometimes do the wrong thing and also the justification that often leads us to make the wrong choice. Then the initial stuff my WW dealt with in IC around her whyís came to mind. I was never really blamed for why she had an A, but many of the usual ďI felt lonely, I didnít think you would stay with me, I felt like you (the BS) were controllingĒ and various other relationship issues were explored. Those felt like it was blaming me and at first for her it was but she worked through that. And then I had two thoughts on it

One is I think these are a part of the reason, mostly as understanding the justifications she used for herself. It was not anything I did, not anything about the relationship, but about how she felt about it. Iím not going into why she felt those things, but that is the digging she had to do to understand the real whys, the root of those feelings (FOO and history) and how to deal with those feelings. And that has nothing to do about who I am our how I was in our relationship. Yep itís not about me. Iíve known and felt this for a long time now but Iím driving this point home for omgnome.

The second thought was even if those feelings were valid what the hell does it say about the person making the wrong choice? How is an A legitimate or remotely healthy reaction? How can an A solve anything? Itís not and it canít. Itís a betrayal of oneís own integrity. And then the thoughts led back to point one Ė the root of why the reactions to those valid feelings were not healthy.

So long story short, if the BH was a true knight in shining armor, a fucked up thug, a narcissist, or like most people a man trying to find his way in this world and in the M Ė it did not matter Ė the choice was hers. Anything that could come to light about why the BH was to blame might be a good door for the WW to open with IC, because it was not about the BH but how the WW dealt with her feelings.

BTW Ė I think most of the blame shifting feelings are huge magnifications Ė a struck match (the BH behavior) is not a forest fire (what the WS feels about the behavior). We all have our idiosyncrasies. Not to mention the rewriting that comes to cover thy own ass. For me that was pretty minimal but for some it is huge. Also - man I sure miss WAL's rants and musings

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 7:57 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]


Your beliefs donít make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1062 | Registered: Jul 2011
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I couldn't do it - not because I wouldn't find a little variety with a nice-looking woman pleasurable after 19 years of monogamy - because I can't figure out a way to do it without ME finding out about it.

That is a fantastic line Sal. Love it.

My experience with counselors has been mixed. We had a passive let us work it out ourselves kind of approach to an IMAGO teach us how to communicate approach. We never had someone be as blunt as Sal's. Overall MC never really helped me or our M much.

IC, on the other hand, has been extremely helpful for me. It would have been great if my WW had the desire to put in some time with my IC. I think if she had our outcome might have been different. My IC won't let me blame anything on anyone else. He is direct and has been a huge help. My take on it is pretty simple: these people work for you. They are NOT mediators or negotiators for your best interests; those I believe are called attorneys. If her IC/MC isn't helping both of you she is hurting both of you. I'd strongly suggest looking elsewhere.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 8:14 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She looked over and told me that she wasn't going to give me a timeline that if it was something I was going to divorce her over than it was "on me

This stuff pisses me off. This is the same "I'm only accountable to myself" shit that allows them to have an affair to begin with. The only thing that matters is their happiness, family, husband, vows, and children be damned.
A statement like that only means one thing, she doesn't have to answer to you for anything that happened. Like you don't deserve to know the full extent of her betrayal. You simply just need to get over it. Not giving you a timeline is just a continuation of the lies and subsequent cover-ups. Don't go for it brother!

As far as the "on you" part of the statement. I don't understand this type of logic. I mean who decides on a line of cause and effect that she can arbitrarily break that line where she sees fit. Like she can walk over to the chalk board all willy-nilly and erase part of the line. Then from that point on her accountability is satisfied. Her accountability is satisfied when YOU say so.

Tell that IC to fuck off. She won't though, she now has backup. That a tough situation to deal with, especially if he's been cementing that type of flawed thinking over a long period of time. He's not qualified to counsel on affairs. Allowing that type of though pattern (shifting blame from her broken decision making process to you) means he has no experience with this type of thing other than what he has read in a textbook.

None of us here might be legally licensed to give counsel on this type of thing but one thing we do have is experience. I'll take words of advice from experience over a paper on the wall any day.


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That is a fantastic line Sal. Love it.

Thanks TC. Glad you're still around, brother.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
nuance
♂ Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 11:10 PM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would tell the IC that I don't want to be M to a wife that when you forget to take out the trash she starts fucking other people.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1160 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:53 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

omgnome)))
You get to a point where you just step away from all that bullshit.
"I'm sorry you feel that way." is a great line for you to memorize as a detaching tool.
Really. Don't let that shit touch you any more.
Don't
Even
Think
About
Changing
Her

I was going to post yesterday, but got busy. It's a good thing, though, because it gave me time to think @ why your sitch was making me angry.
Because it reminds me of my own anger - which I harnessed to detach from my own toxic stew, that's why.
Anger is a good thing. If you use it in a cold and calculated manner to get to a healthier place.
Get angry.

Her A, her disrespect of your basic needs for healing, her willingness to see you suffer by throwing you the bleached bones of avoidance, gaslighting, and non-transparency - that is all on her.
You continuing to tolerate such abuse - that's on you.
Get angry brother. Get firm.

We get it, you may be allowing yourself to continue suffering because you don't want your balls removed through your wallet - get it we do. But if you're tolerating it because you think you can fix her, Stop. Doing. That.

They told me last time that online support groups (I'm talking SI here) aren't that worthwhile.

Riiiiight! Because 40,000 people with years of experience and expertise don't know squat. Riiiiight!

This one was delicious:

How can I REALLY know that these people aren't just lying and making things up.

"Right, bitch!" "That's why I'm paying the clown with the fancy duh-grees on the wall to find out about you!"

Liars indict themselves with their own moufs.


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They told me last time that online support groups (I'm talking SI here) aren't that worthwhile.

I have to tell you, omgnome, my counselor had the exact opposite reaction. I started telling her about this site and she stopped me and asked, "what's the address again?", and wrote it down. She looked genuinely pleased, and asked if she could share this with other clients.

I don't know if your MC felt "threatened" or what, but any counselor should be in support of their clients building up their own personal support system. That's my opinion.

Just wanted to touch on that point, and share how my counselor was so different. Even with multiple pieces of expensive certificatry (my new word) up on the wall, every counselor and therapist practices to a certain extent based upon their own personal opinions.

Is it Friday yet? I'm on vacation and having a hard time keeping track of the days.


Posts: 4557 | Registered: Dec 2010
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it Friday yet?

Well, since you're on vacay, the answer is YES!

& you can have some good suds.
About the only 'limiter' there is:
"Is it AM or PM?"

Have a blast!


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh you bet I am, jjct! I thought of you the other evening. I had a "Sweaty Betty" Blonde Ale. It was an unfiltered wheat. Between the name of the beer, and the style of the beer, I thought it had your name written all over it. Cheers!

Posts: 4557 | Registered: Dec 2010
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, I got yer 'Sweat-inducing-Betty' right here!

(she ain't blonde, though)
.
.
.


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
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