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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 16
numb&dumb
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Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

omgnome

This IC seems to come from an earlier generation where it rationalized women cheat when in bad M. Tell him to try reading a book or research that was published after 1990.

At next session I would ask WW and IC where does her fault lie in this ? Putting any of this on you seems incredibly unfair. She made a choice, she has free will. She had other options available to solve this issue with integrity and honor. Fault is like being pregnant, either you are or you aren't. M issues are fine, in MC, but IC by definition is about learning to solve things about . . .IDK yourself.

What is she willing to do to help you with the fear that she will do it again ?

Ask the IC point blank, if the M was so bad, why didn't I cheat ? What is the difference ?

Your W and IC opened the door. If they want you involved, they have to be forthcoming about everything. Using the session to attack you is really shitty. Especially not sharing "her " journey so you have an opportunity to feel more comfortable with the process.

Why is she still hiding contact with potential AP and lying to you about it ? (She is probably lying to the IC about things. I would bet my last dollar on it.)

I would offer you are willing to look at issues in the M, in MC, as you have several issues that your W needs to work on that are not A related too.

The thing with your brother is a non-starter. Your brother did not cheat on you, she did. He is your family forever, you can divorce her and move on. She is grasping at straws to demonize you to make herself feel better. Only once that is broken will you see any progress. No remorse, not owning it 100%, stilling talking to potential EA partners. Until that time R is waste of time. A Good MC would call her on that.

It think it is time to offer her a ultimatum. The last one was the only thing that seemed to bring about any progress for you. She isn't giving you any assurances that she is willing to work from her side of the M. Tell her that. IC is a start, but clearly it just became a vehicle for her to blame shift. Suggest she look for another if she does not want a D.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2455 | Registered: May 2010
omgnome
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Member # 36888
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for the replies.

I know that it isn't my fault my wife had her EAs, her IC just said what he think, I strongly disagreed with him in person. It just made me angry. I was still angry when I woke up yesterday still thinking that he would have the guts to say it, be called on it, and still think he wasn't wrong. Venting about it here helped a lot.

Razor: It is funny that you say that about putting the diploma up on the wall and having no experience. He was giving me suggestions about what to look for in a MC and he was warning me about the same thing, making sure they have experience and that they married. Turns out he's been married for 40 years, so maybe even with the degrees and experience you can still be terribly wrong.

Thanks Mr. Kite for reading through the whole darn thing. I know it was long and was probably a little incoherent through it. It was sorta a stream of conscious thing there (I suppose thats a lot of how I write though). I did feel she had a lot of blameshifting going. I had thought through our marriage and whole relationship that I had been very attentive to her needs and wants and even set mine aside often to make sure everything she wanted got taken care of. I always put my family first and made sure they had what they needed. She claimed I didn't tell her often enough that she was beautiful, that she looked good or that I loved her. I did all those things up until I discovered her first EA, then it fell a little and even after her second EA I stepped up the reinforcement (I hadn't discovered SI yet so I didn't know you couldn't nice them back into the relationship). It wasn't until after DDay2 and me seeing her not really addressing the issue that I started to focus on healing myself and working through my feelings on my own that I became distant to her.

Defiled Rage: Yeah it set me off too. It took every once of my will to not say to her then and there "Well then why don't we just called it off then and save the time going to MC". She had written me a letter in the past talking a little about what she did, but it wasn't really a timeline and didn't tell me much that I didn't know, only that she had had an earlier 'incident' (I guess you could call it that I don't know exactly what it is because she never defined it) with her second EA partner about the same time she was with the first EA partner. That was how she placed it during her letter, during counseling she said it was long before we were married. I need to find a good way to bring that up with her as part of why I need that timeline. If she doesn't get me one, then to me it's a dealbreaker.

jjct: Thank you for that knowledge. I think that line would work well for some of the issues she brings to me. I have been working to detach. That's why I moved out (well that and I planned to divorce) and I try very hard to focus on me and what I need to heal. I like that idea of focusing the anger to use it as energy to improve my situation and make it better. I don't like being an angry person and it was just flowing through me Wednesday night. I think putting it towards a positive use is a good way to use it as opposed to letting it consume me.

Losfer Words: I think part of it is that my wife thinks I spent too much time on the computer. Never mind that a lot of it was for work or school. Before I moved in with her and even awhile after we were engaged and moved in together I did spend a bit of recreational time, usually about 10 hours a week or so raiding in an MMORPG, but that all stopped well before we got married. I think that her and her counselor just equated online time as goofing off and that it couldn't be productive. This website has been so damn useful to me in my healing and helping to keep myself sane. I found out about it after like a week on the reddit relationships forum (the first place online I started looking for help). Thank the maker that I found SI so quickly, I don't think that reddit would have helped anywhere near as well. Also I stole my name from someone named omgnome on reddit. I am not that person. I just needed a good anonymous name from what I normally use online, so I opened a reddit thread and found the first family friendly easily remember-able username and ran with it.

Also a bit thank you to everyone here. I know I'm a bit of a lurker, and I may dissapear to lurkerdom again, but the stories and reinforcement on here that are directed at others still provide help to those who are just listening.


BS

Posts: 197 | Registered: Sep 2012
Razor
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Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anything that could come to light about why the BH was to blame might be a good door for the WW to open with IC, because it was not about the BH but how the WW dealt with her feelings.

This is ONLY true if you have a IC or MC that sees this blame shifting as what it is. IMO most IC/MC take that as cause for the LTA and then lay it at the feet of the BH.

Remember counseling is a money making venture. In the end they are NOT there to make you better and to heal the M. They are there to collect their check at the end of the session. The goal then is to keep those checks coming.

If they piss off the WW too much they will stop coming. So to keep the money flowing they'll blame whomever the WW wants to blame. Be it their BH or the OM. They focus on FOO issues because those can be a can of worms that may take years to unwind.. leading to more nice paychecks. In fact they will allow the blame to fall anywhere the WW wants it to fall. Because more sessions = more money.

Regarding the *on you* statement. I can relate.

I caught a email message from WW to her (enabler) BFF where she said that she wanted me to file for D because she *didnt want to be the bad guy*. Wow. I hadnt thought of that in a long time. And just looking at what I just wrote boggles my mind. The levels of narcissism and blame shifting there just flys off the scale.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3074 | Registered: Sep 2007
foundoutlater
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Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is ONLY true if you have a IC or MC that sees this blame shifting as what it is. IMO most IC/MC take that as cause for the LTA and then lay it at the feet of the BH.

Absolutely. I think it’s not bad to understand that the WW probably believes it. IMO a good IC can work with someone to find what really is at work without pissing them off. This is one of many reasons that MC sucks or is not even possible until after the WW has done some digging with IC.

Remember counseling is a money making venture. In the end they are NOT there to make you better and to heal the M. They are there to collect their check at the end of the session. The goal then is to keep those checks coming.

There are some like that and from what I’ve seen here on SI it’s probably more than I want to believe. But not all of them are like that. We have not seen our MC for a while. We may go in for a tune up in January. She has a philosophy that too much counseling is counter productive to a healthy M. I really like her.

I caught a email message from WW to her (enabler) BFF where she said that she wanted me to file for D because she *didnt want to be the bad guy*. Wow. I hadnt thought of that in a long time. And just looking at what I just wrote boggles my mind. The levels of narcissism and blame shifting there just flys off the scale.

Pretty fucked up logic. Man my heart aches when I read the shit many BS endure. Really sucks you have to deal with it. That kind of stuff still comes back to haunt me – pretty much what started this topic for me.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1059 | Registered: Jul 2011
ascian
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Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IMO most IC/MC take that as cause for the LTA and then lay it at the feet of the BH.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I know that it's easy to blame on conspiracy what should be blamed on incompetence and bad information; the narrative that way is just so much more comfortable. But to say that most professional therapists care so little about mental health that they'll create bad situations is like claiming that a carpenter will build a house poorly on purpose just so the homeowner has to keep using their services, or that the IT guy at work keeps breaking your computer so he'll stay employed.


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
64fleet
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Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But to say that most professional therapists care so little about mental health that they'll create bad situations is like claiming that a carpenter will build a house poorly on purpose just so the homeowner has to keep using their services, or that the IT guy at work keeps breaking your computer so he'll stay employed.


you've never worked in an auto shop-this kinda stuff happens every day in every shop I've ever been in...people suck.

I worked next to one guy who threw a set of new brake pads in the trash weekly. He got paid for a brake job though, and never took the wheels off.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
DefiledRage
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Default  Posted: 2:30 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the IT guy at work keeps breaking your computer so he'll stay employed

I do do that. oh wait.....
In reality I don't have to, ever here the acronym PEBKAC. It's IT reality 95% of the time. The other 5% I blame on Microsoft.

I would guess that the vast majority of therapists in the field are genuinely there to try and help people. However its one of those fields that the money is in the treatment not the cure. It's also a job that has shown a high burnt out rate and the people trying to help can become jaded and callous over time. When you get burnt out you look for the easiest way to get one hour over so you can move on to the next. Job quality goes way down.

However the main problem is the way that infidelity has been viewed by society as a whole over the years. I think the old views need to be tossed out the window. Society is more open now, people are more willing to come to places like SI and talk and vent and work through this issue. In the past people mostly suffered in silence. Both because without technology they simply didn't have the means to forum with this many people, and because what fifties house wife in her right mind would admit her husband was cheating (or god forbid she cheated), in either case she would be ostracized by society. I don't think I need to go into why a man in the past would NEVER freely admit he got cheated on. Today we are getting a better idea of how wide spread of a problem this is, the sharing of information has allowed that. It has also allowed a better analyze of the root causes.

I think all of us here can agree that problems in a marriage is not a justifiable root cause. Faulty neuron connections are the problem. Everyone has at least a few problems with their spouse. But those of us here didn't use another women to try and solve the problem. That's just bad rationale.

mrs. omgnome's IC needs a reboot. He's operating under outdated theories when it comes to this stuff. Whether or not that's on his own faulty assumptions, or he simply hasn't put enough research into it himself; it's a problem. If he's going to be counseling on this type of stuff he needs to rethink his approach. He needs to hang out here for awhile, if he did I think he would change his thinking. Or maybe he's one that doesn't care as long as someone is writing a check. Either way time to look for a new IC IMO.


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 424 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to tell you, omgnome, my counselor had the exact opposite reaction. I started telling her about this site and she stopped me and asked, "what's the address again?", and wrote it down. She looked genuinely pleased, and asked if she could share this with other clients.
I had the exact same experience. I printed out 'Joseph's Letter'...the MC read it over and instantly asked if she could keep the copy and what site she could find it on.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1584 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...But to say that most professional therapists care so little about mental health that they'll create bad situations...
Call me an optimist, but I agree. Don't get me wrong, I think in any field where you deal with volumes of people there is the possibility of becoming jaded and just viewing people as cash crops...but I have to imagine that the vast majority of people in the field got involved because they genuinely care about and want to help people. If all they really wanted was money, they would have probably gone to school for something else.

That being said, of course there are horror stories and people still bring their individual biases and personal histories into their work, I can only assume.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1584 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy shit Merlin. Is she fucking your lawyer or something? I know we have it bad here but that seems insane even for NJ.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7096 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
numb&dumb
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Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The trouble with MC is that invariably involves pre-A issues. Both people in the M more than likely have them. The issue becomes when one spouses issues are being given priority. Most WS have enough against them with the A so a therapist may try to focus on the BS M issues to avoid being perceived as "unfair" to the WS. Or even to buy in into the WS rewriting of history to at least keep them talking. Continuing that process to "their next turn," takes a big leap of faith that most BS cannot afford. To have someone break your heart and then blame you for it, with the agreement of a therapist, is beyond painful.

Trying to be fair in an unfair situation is what gets most MC in trouble.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2455 | Registered: May 2010
ascian
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Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

you've never worked in an auto shop-this kinda stuff happens every day in every shop I've ever been in

64fleet, there's a specific reason that I didn't include auto mechanics in my examples.

mrs. omgnome's IC needs a reboot. He's operating under outdated theories when it comes to this stuff.

That's my take on it as well. "40 years married" would put him near-to-or-past 65 (assuming bachelors+masters at least). He was likely educated during an era where marriage and family counseling was having to focus heavily on bringing equity to women in work and family situations. So, it makes sense that his work would focus more on a wife's feelings, even if it's something that would piss me off were my own MC to try something like that.

Still, yeah omgnome, you two need to find a new MC. I've made the comparison before, but I'll repeat it: a good MC is like a good coach. They need to make you work hard, and you should never be fully comfortable there, but you should also trust that they're trying their damnedest to get you to your goal.


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On D-day 1 my WW said "I put up with you for the first 8 years of our marriage before I cheated on you." What did she have to "put up with?" During those first 8 years of our M -
1. I brought home my paycheck each week
2. Finished up my college degree so life could be better for both of us
3. Never hit or abused her
4. Never cheated on her
5. Put up with my in-laws and her obnoxious friends
6. Defended her to others
7. Bought her presents whether it was a birthday, holiday, or not
8. Encouraged her career and her artwork
9. Put up with her anorexia, mood swings, and other crazy behavior - etc., etc.

So what was really the problem? Not being perfect and fitting into her fantasy ideal of what a husband should be. WW was a walking time-bomb getting ready to explode. She could have been married to a handsome billionaire with a giant shlong and she still would have cheated on him.

There is no answer to the "why?" question so I stopped asking and searching for the answer. Broken people break things, that's the answer. When the day comes that an MC or IC understands this and goes about repairing what's broken in her, then I will have full confidence in the counseling process. Until then...


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Merlin
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Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SG,

Nope. I am just the poster boy for who you do not want to be when you get divorced in NJ.

Long-term married
Self-employed
High income and no ability to hide it
Saved 20% of income annually
Tolerated very high spending while married
Never hid anything or thought I needed to

The courts are loaded with financial morons, bad laws and no one that wants the system to change.

I sat with my accountants and a financial planner earlier this year. We worked out that 70% of everything we had as marrieds is now hers.

That's what NJ calls 'equitable distribution'.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1056 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've made the comparison before, but I'll repeat it: a good MC is like a good coach. They need to make you work hard, and you should never be fully comfortable there, but you should also trust that they're trying their damnedest to get you to your goal.

That is a really great analogy, ascian.


Posts: 4496 | Registered: Dec 2010
Merlin
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Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kite,

One wonders how any woman could tolerate such mistreatment!

Same here though. I was never the 'old ball & chain' guy that so many of my friends and acquaintances were. I thought of her always, pitching in, gifts for nothing whatever, never forgot important dates and all the rest of it, just as you did.

But when the fertilizer struck the ventilator, to her it had all been bad - all 24+ years of it.

They really do say and believe anything once they have checked out.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1056 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
Razor
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Default  Posted: 5:27 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They really do say and believe anything once they have checked out.

My much jaded view is that very few of them ever check back in again.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3074 | Registered: Sep 2007
foundoutlater
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Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To have someone break your heart and then blame you for it, with the agreement of a therapist, is beyond painful.

IMO trying to deal with that is crap. Until the WS is at a point they know the M issues had nothing to do with the fucked up choice MC is beyond painful and crates long term damage to the M. It takes two to work on the M and until the WS figures that shit out (that they are 100% at fault for the M and the damage it has brought) they are not ready for the M work.

I put up with you for the first 8 years of our marriage before I cheated on you.

OK my first thought was “I put up with more crap than you can ever understand in those eight years”, but that is off point. I’d have a hard time moving forward with that shit. I got the “I was a good wife for many of our years together, doesn’t that count for something”. Well it did count for something – I stayed to see if she had changed and to work on our M but that was it. As time passes and the work is done I can perceive more value in those years but damn it takes a while.

There is no answer to the "why?" question so I stopped asking and searching for the answer.

I’ve got a different take on it. There is no answer to the why question that the BS can or should try to figure out. It only took a couple years to get that though. An incredible amount of angst and energy were spent trying to figure it out by me. I still find myself going down that road from time to time. We will never figure out the answer. There is an answer though and the WS can get to (or I should say maybe get to). For me that answer needed to be worked through by my WS. As we continue in this M I am realizing it is not so much as an answer as an understanding of who she was (and what influenced who she was) and how she has changed. It’s really hard work and I think many people don’t do the hard work.

My much jaded view is that very few of them ever check back in again.

For each of us there is only one that matters – our own WW. I feel like I’ve been shit on by a friend, my W and fate but I’m fortunate that my WW has checked in.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1059 | Registered: Jul 2011
LetMeRollIt
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Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Our MC says the A is 100% her, and the M was 50/50, thankfully.

I think my WW is slowly checking back in more and more.

She has apologized, and shown remorse (both very difficult for her), and the fog continues to lift. She says she doesn't understand all the reasons she stood behind so strongly a couple months ago. The fact that she acted like a complete other person for 2+ years, makes it easier for me somehow. I see more of the woman I fell in love with every day.

The problem is me forgiving that woman…

And the why? I think I understand it more than she does. FOO issues out the wazoo, inability to communicate, then motherhood and mid life crisis arrive at the same time, and bingo, a series of shitty decisions.

[This message edited by LetMeRollIt at 6:59 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]


D day- June 30, 2013
Me - BS
Married 15 years
5 year old child
Attempting R as of Oct. 1 2013

"Cry, and let your soul be cleansed of a love that turned to carnage." - Christy Brown


Posts: 98 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 7:09 PM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FOO issues out the wazoo, inability to communicate, then motherhood and mid life crisis arrive at the same time, and bingo, a series of shitty decisions.

Man, does that sound familiar.

I think the "whys" gets overanalyzed a lot. Deficiencies in the categories of integrity, morals, and character probably sum it up better than anything. They did it because they thought they could get away with it and it didn't bother their conscience enough to prevent it from happening in the first place or making them stop much earlier than they did.

And maybe the most overlooked factor: immaturity. I engaged in what now seems like "wayward" behavior when I was a teenager (flirting with other guy's girlfriends, messing around with a friend's sister behind his back). I left all that crap behind when I became an adult, and especially a married man. Never looked back. It's called growing up and becoming a responsible adult. One thing that stands out about my wife's affair was the immaturity and silliness of it. She even admitted that the affair "took her back" to her college days and the way she felt back then. Just a single party girl hitting the dance clubs. This from a 40 year old mother of 4.

Sometimes I think the best cure for waywardness is just to grow the hell up.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


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