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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 8
EvolvingSoul
♀ Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

womaninflux,
My WH has said that he is "conflict avoidant." Is it possible that this trait played into why the A went on so long? He is SA so he had an addiction to her (his therapist refers to AP as his drug). Did he avoid the conflict of ending the affair even though he knew at some points during the A that it should end?

I don't know about your WH but for me conflict avoidance played a bigger role in getting me into the affair than preventing me from getting out. My affair was both emotional and physical. The emotional part was painfully obvious but at that time I did not really even know that an emotional affair was a real thing. Our D-day consisted of an ultimatum from BS that he wanted my "friend" out of our lives or he was done, and then a couple of days later finding out from my sister that it had been a physical relationship as well.

The affair was very much a drug in the sense that it was an easy but destructive way to temporarily feel good and distract me from my problems, problems that I did not want to face head on. I needed relief from anxiety and depression and so I found an easy source of feelings that seemed to provide it. That is the broken piece that is so often described in the WS mentality: the willingness to get our needs met at other people's expense and that is exactly what I did. Honestly I don't think I really saw people as actual people. They were more sources of feelings. As long as they did not see me as a bad person, then what I was actually doing that they didn't know about wasn't a problem.

There is no quick fix for this kind of thinking. It has taken a lot of work to figure out how that piece got broken and to build a new mental foundation. Definitely it's a work in progress.

Okay this got wordy! Hope this gives you the insight you're looking for.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 302 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Evolving Soul,
Thank you for your feedback. It just bothers me that I can't shake the fact she had sex and if we continue, I feel like I have to compare myself in all matters when dealing with both AP.

And of course, as it has been stated, men are more bothered by sex than the emotional aspect, but I am bothered by both. Saying I love you to another and screwing them...and then coming back and I have to think about it, compare it, and wonder am I a better lover, and is she thinking of him right now. She could just be lying to me.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BrokenButTrying
Thank you for taking the time out to reply. It is nice to know that you threw away your gifts, but I wonder would it be better to do it together or separate.

My wife was given a necklace the first time and she said she put it in the lost and found box at work. I wonder, was that a lie or did she retrieve it or did her get her a new one. When I visit her and my daughter and I go into the room she is staying, I see she is hiding it but I can still see it. I thought about just taking it but that might come off as being PSYCHO. I have found another gift and hid it and will be holding on to it along with some pictures and asking her to destroy it to see if she is truly committed if do R.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Have you asked your WW outright why she's holding onto the gifts? From what you've said, I think she's fence sitting. In your case, I think throwing them away together would be a symbol, for both of you, of her committing herself to the M.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BrokenButTrying,
From as far as I know, she still has feelings for him, and yes, she is probably most likely Fence Sitting.

We both have decisions to make and I get the feeling she is sometimes looking for reasons to leave and reasons to stay.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
99lawdog99
♂ Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First of all I would like to thank all of you who have answered the many questions as I feel it has helped me alot. My wife who is 45 ( looks 25 and a playboy model)had a 4 month sexual affair with some 39 year old former drug user who lived with his mother. It was only sex as he could never afford to go anywhere or even buy her lunch. She met him as he was the grand son of a patient she used to see. She is a visiting nurse and I am an attorney. We have been married for 25 years and it started as texting and phone calls. They met up again about a year later and she was very open about their meeting telling me she met up with him again at a gas station and asked for her phone number. Over the course of months they began texting ridiculous amounts of time sometimes 30-50 times a day. Whenever I questioned it she would get mad a say they were just friends. Eventually she wound up sleeping with him for months. The strange thing was that since I work in another state I leave home early and she would call me every morning to talk. I learned that she would go to his house 2-3 times during the week before her job began, after his mother left and have sex with him. However she would be on the phone with me up until the time she got to his house in the morning and then call me immediatelry afterwards when she got back into her car. It was about an hour in between as she would tell me she was at a patients house. I discovered that this went on for about 2-3 months before I got sick of her constant talking and texting him. At the time I was unaware she was meeting with him and sleeping with him. She always told me there were no meetings. We had many fights and I was about to leave when she decided to send him a text saying to leave her alone and don't call her anymore. I then blocked his number form her phone which she didn't know. At that time I was unaware of what was going on between them. Long story short, about two weeks later she got together with him again , telling me he saw her at a gas station and asked her to come back to his house to talk. They talked and of course within a week she was back sleeping with him and this time I found out. This second time lasted 10 days. I confronted her after i called him and she confessed. She then told him thats it, she ended it and told me she never stopped loving me and that she didn't know why she did it. She eventually told me it was the excitment of someone new as she was only with me her entire life and she was full of herself as he was constantly telling her how hot she was. I once saw a tewxt she wrote to him where she told him that she loved the fact that he told her he had a crush on her. After it ended she has been good ever since. When I ask her why she went back to him and why she slept with him again, she says she doesn't know. I asked why she din't just tell him to get lost, she says that's what she should of done but doesn't know why. I told her that if she never went back to him that last week I probably would have never have found out about them. She knows that. The only thing I was able to get out of her is that when she talked to him, he told her he was depressed and could not live without her. That those two weeks apart killed him. I laughed as I couldn't believe she fell for that. I don't understand how that got her back into his bed. She said he fed he a sob story and she fell for it. My question is, does this make sense? Why would she go back to him and once again have sex if she really didn't want him. Does the feel sorry for me story really work? That is the big problem with me. Why did she go back to him if now she thinks he was a really a hole. Thank you


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 117 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
Ready_to_run
♂ Member
Member # 20954
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why did she go back to him if now she thinks he was a really a hole. Thank you

Good question, Lawdog. The woman I am dating now had an affair and said the same thing about her AP. But kept going back fore more despite that. I will be interested to see the replies.


BH
Divorced


Posts: 750 | Registered: Sep 2008
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why would she go back to him and once again have sex if she really didn't want him. Does the feel sorry for me story really work?

Your WW's behaviour screams lack of boundaries to me. I had the same problem, I didn't know how to say no. I was so afraid of upsetting the OM, he was threatening to expose the A, saying he was suicidal over me ending the A, I didn't know what to do. I didn't resume the PA but the EA continued for a few months via text and phone calls because of my lack of boundaries.

So yes, the 'feel sorry for me' story works because your WW has no defence mechanism against it. She cannot say no, even if the consequences of that action are detrimental to her own life.

She needs to get herself into IC, dig deep to find out where her lack of boundaries originates from, work hard on building new, impenetrable ones.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 12:07 PM, March 19th (Wednesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
99lawdog99
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Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, Brokenbutrying, did you hit the nail on the head. First of all, there were no boundries because I thought i could trust her with my life. I knew she was texting him but I trusted her. She even said she wished I was more jealous of her talking to him. She also has such a big heart she can't say no to anyone. I constantly tell her that she is too soft and she admits it. She did tell me that since I was really the only guy she was ever with that she thought all guys were as nice as me.(her words not mine). She would talk to anyone and never realize what they were after. Even all the times I told her that guys only want one thing, she would say I was crazy. Even when I was telling her to be careful with this guy that he sounded like a player, she would get mad at me and tell me no, that I didn't know him and he was not like that. Well guess what, she now knows he was like that. We have talked alot and she found out all the bull he was throwing at her. She now has gone completely 180 and says that no guy better ever appraoch her again as she is going to be a total B! I have no problem being like that. She has done everyhting rihgt but can't answer that one question that's bothering me. Why did she go back and have sex with him. She even said it wasn't the same.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 117 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
Ready_to_run
♂ Member
Member # 20954
Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think broken said it best here.

She cannot say no, even if the consequences of that action are detrimental to her own life.

For some people their boundaries and self worth are so absolutely low that its easier to do something like sleep with someone you don't even like than it is to risk rejection or making someone mad at you.


BH
Divorced


Posts: 750 | Registered: Sep 2008
99lawdog99
♂ Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One more thing. That second time she went back was from 12/2 til 12/11 when I found out. During that time she said she was only with him on the 2nd when he met up with her again and they only talked and on the 11th when she had sex with him again. My problem is that I believe based upon phone records and expass, she was with him on the 3rd, 4th and the 10th as well. No matter how much I question her or even show her the evidence she insist it was only on that one day. She did say what does it matter and why would she lie about it at this point. It just doersn't make sense. I can't get her to change her story. All it does is cause us to get into fights. She constantly tells me that she's sorry I'm not getting the answers I'm looking for but she is not going to tell me something that's not true so I can hear what I want to hear. I have asked her about this at least 10 times and each time she gets madder at me. She says that is the one thing that gets her mad, and that is asking the same question over and over expecting a different answer. Other wise she has accepted full blame for her affair telling me she doesn't know whty she did it as I was the perfect husband.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 117 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lawdog --

I responded to a similar question a while ago in the Reconciliation forum. Rather than edit for gender, I'll just paste my response here:

I don't want to minimize your feelings at all. And I certainly don't want to excuse what I went through. But I had a similar experience in my A. I knew it was wrong, and repeatedly tried to end it. But I thought I had to be a "nice guy" so AP#2 wouldn't blow up. In doing so, I kept this thread of connection between us. Unfortunately for me, when I hit a low point, AP was there, and the A went on.

My point is that I didn't have the tools, the guts, mental ability, whatever, to get myself out of the hole I created. Maybe your WH was in a similar situation. Maybe he sincerely wanted to end things, but because he didn't know how, there was this thread of a connection there. And then he fell into the same sort of pattern of communication with the OW. That doesn't excuse either of us, and it doesn't excuse minimizing the A. But it is possible that your WH is telling you the truth about what he felt at the time.

I don't know if any of this is the truth in your situation. But many wiser people than me here have pointed out that trying to judge WS thinking based on "normal" standards is pretty difficult.

Not to let your WS off the hook, I also wrote this:

We should admit that putting ourselves in the position for the affair, having the affair, and then talking to the AP to keep it from blowing up all come from the same place. Actually, they are all probably "the affair." I told myself that I had to appease AP. But you know what? I haven't talked to her since DDay. The ability to do that was there all of the time. I was just too whatever to do it, regardless of the good intentions. It is the same weakness. I don't want to give the impression that I or your WH were close to correct.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 538 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
EvolvingSoul
♀ Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai,
And of course, as it has been stated, men are more bothered by sex than the emotional aspect, but I am bothered by both. Saying I love you to another and screwing them...and then coming back and I have to think about it, compare it, and wonder am I a better lover, and is she thinking of him right now. She could just be lying to me.
I think it is normal for you to be feeling this way, this close to your d-day and with little apparent remorse from your WW unless something has drastically changed from your earlier posts.

I did not really get it at first that my BS really needed me to reassure him that I prefer him to AP, and why. Not just "I choose you" but "I choose you because...". Because I had my head pretty far up my ass I was not able to give him that for some time and I think that was so detrimental to his healing...the fence sitting. It just piled on extra damage that now has to be processed. It sounds like that is similar to what you are going through.

I want to say take comfort in the following, although I know there is nothing comfortable about any of this. From where I am now, I can see that any comparison I made at the time between AP and my BS was based on some really distorted thinking on my part. It was so important for me not to see myself as a bad person, which pretty much meant I did not want other people to see me as a bad person since mostly I found my worth in what I thought other people thought of me. You can see the problem...trying to keep two fundamentally opposed narratives (1) I am not a bad person and (2) I am lying to my husband and destroying his emotional and physical health out of each others way. Basically I had to deny to myself that (2) was even happening. I mentally cast myself as someone special and unique who had special and unique needs. I was just not like everyone else. It was only after coming here and starting to educate myself about the true nature of infidelity and how it affects the brain that I realized that I was exactly like so many other waywards.

I say all this to tell you that any comparison she is making is not a very valid one because what she is comparing is not you vs him but how she feels in your presence vs how she felt when interacting with AP. And that has more to do with her than with you or AP or anyone else. That was my experience, anyway. That said, it has been a struggle for my BS to accept the sexual part of the affair. He's grossed out by it and I don't blame him. He asked me to do the cleaning ritual I talked about in an earlier post but it was not until 2 years after D-day that I did it. He has always known that he is the better person between him and AP (sexually and otherwise), but he needs to know that I know it and needs to hear me express it often. It has taken me a long time to get the hang of giving him what he needs in this regard. A lot of humbling, for sure, and embarrassment that I ever put him in a position to have to ask for that reassurance.

I don't think there is no hope for your WW to get her act together but it will not be something you can make her do. She has to actually want to learn how to think differently, to choose the path of mental health, so to speak. It sounds like right now she is operating with some massively unhealthy thought processes running her decision making.

Strength to you from one EvolvingSoul.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 302 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
Imissmyhusb
♀ Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am trying to figure out my WH. He is still in A and tells me he is emotionally disconnectd from me, and that it will take a long time to heal. He doesnt see me as someone he is sure to spend the rest of his life with, as he once did when things were young and fresh.

A little background-we had a sexless marriage for several yrs, and he felt that i was no longer attractd to him and did not desire him. This hurt him to a degree that he withdrew and created an emotional distance.
I was dealing with three small children with no real help from him and yes i did not make sex a priority. It wasnt that i didnt want to, just wasnt on the front of my mind. Also wasnt completely sexless, just very infrequent and sporadic.

If he is so disconnectd, what is the likelihood that we can R? Has any WS been so deeply hurt by their BS that they had an A and decided not to R? If anyone did R, what (if anything beside time) made the hurt go away?


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 222 | Registered: Mar 2014
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, March 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Credence

1) Did you know before you had sex with your AP that you were 100% going to have sex with them if the opportunity arose?

Yes.

2) Did you and your AP 'plan' your first sexual encounter and if so, did you get 'cold feet' at any point or were you too caught up in the excitement/anticipation?

I don't remember; I assume we planned to get together knowing we would have sex. Since we were exes, during the A wasn't the "first time ever" that we had sex.

3) Right before you had sex with the AP for the first time, when the two of you were alone together, did you feel at any point like you might/should back out of it?

No.


LostSamurai


1. How long did it take for you to get rid of any items/gifts/clothes related to the affair.

Shortly after D-day. I ditched all the stuff related to the affair; I still have some stuff from when we had dated because I liked it and it wasn't "affair stuff."

2. Did you get rid of the things together with you BS or did you do it on your own?

My BS and I were divorcing so I did it on my own.

3. After DDAY were you more devoted to your spouse and the marriage or did you try to take care of yourself first?

Myself first. We were divorcing and taking care of myself was my #1 priority. Even if he had wanted to R, there could have never been a healthy marriage without a healthy self.

4. Did any of your BS do any rug sweeping?

Yes.

5. My WW said she didn't tell the other men they were better lovers than me... Given the state of a WS would you think that is true or case by case based on your A's?

I think every aspect of each affair is case by case. We're all different.


byefornow

Did ou ever compare your AP with your spouse either during the affair or after?
Not just sexually either, but personalities, characteristics, etc?

Not consciously, as if I were making a pro-and-con list pitting them against each other...but unconsciously, sure I did. They were very different in many ways, similar in others.

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 7:50 PM, March 19th (Wednesday)]


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, March 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did any BS begged/pleaded with any of you to R?


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, March 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Imissmyhusb

If he is so disconnectd, what is the likelihood that we can R? Has any WS been so deeply hurt by their BS that they had an A and decided not to R? If anyone did R, what (if anything beside time) made the hurt go away?

If the A is still continuing and he is still in the fog then R won't be possible. The A needs to end, he needs to write a NC email to the OW and come out of the fog. Then he needs to commit to R.

I'm not going to lie, the thought of not trying for R has crossed my mind. My M was very, very damaged before my A. Most WS have dealbreakers too. Mine is that the pre-A M issues must be addressed during R. If not, I'm done.
However, I am committed to trying. I love my BH and I want our M to work, I will dedicate my whole self to making that happen. I will not give up without a fight.

I'm not in R with my BH, we're still working towards it so I can't really answer your last question. But if you mean what made the pain of the pre-A M issues go away... it hasn't. I still hurt, everyday, because they haven't been resolved. But I don't believe they cannot ever be resolved so I put it all on hold because my A is a crisis that needs more immediate attention.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, March 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai

Yes, I did. On my knees, in tears. I have never asked for a second chance in my M before, I have done it twice since Dday.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, March 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

at what point does the relationship enter R?

is it when both commit?
is it when the truth is all finally out?
is it when there is acceptance of the A by the BS?

what are the key features that mark the beginning of R versus "whatever" comes before the R?


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 544 | Registered: Jan 2014
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, March 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

William

In my mind there are three phases after Dday;

Limbo - where one, or both, spouses are working out whether they want to R or D. This can take some time depending on how foggy the WS is, how quickly the BS processes the pain etc.

Working towards R - This is when both spouses state that their goal is R. It is something they are working towards but aren't quite there yet.

R - This happens when both are fully committed. When the WS fog has gone. When the BS has the whole truth.
(I'm unsure about acceptance because I'm not a BS.)

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 11:43 AM, March 20th (Thursday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
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