HUFI PUFI, you specifically observed:
Think of it this way. What does she gain from her story of I physical encounter that she would not get from a confession of 4 physical encounters. Had you somehow indicated that 1 encounter would allow for the chance of R but a confession of more would take R off the table? If you had done this, she might have a reason to continue the lies but I don't think its fair to automatically assume that her statement is a LIE unless you have something more to back up this feeling. And according to your post, all you have is fear and a suspicion.
BTW, WW and AP1 were young lovers before our M. They never consummated their love (so she claims) until they both married others. However, living with AP in the same town, as we do, with enormous opportunities for the APs to meet almost every weekend, I have no reason to doubt that they would have had numerous opportunities for more physical encounters especially when you consider that that the alleged single physical encounter took place within this very same town.
Against the above background, it is my considered opinion that WW is simply trying to minimize the damage. She claims that she was consumed by guilt after that single physical encounter and decided to simply invest in the E aspects of the A. For me the bone of contention is what I consider to be her LYING and not the actual frequency of the physical encounters. In my considered opinion my WW (like most women, I suppose) has framed it in her mind that men typically have a hard time coming to terms with the physical aspect of the A as opposed to the E aspect of it, hence here continued underplaying the physical encounter card. In other words, she would like to minimize the ďsluttyĒ picture and accentuate the more innocent ďemotionally needyĒ picture and in so doing gain some sympathy from me in the R process. Problem again for me in all this, is the apparent LYING. Or rather, what I consider to be her lying to minimize the damage. Thatís what is frustrating my healing because it raises serious questions about her remorsefulness.
I do not know if my rumbling is making any sense at all.
Once again, many thanks for the feedback. Please keep the comments flowing.
BH(Me) = 48
WW = 46
M = 10 years
DD = April, 20, 2013
Painstaking R journey
brokenbuttrying did you think that at the time... or did this come as a realisation afterwards?
I sort of realised it at the time, yes. But only partly.
At the time before the A, I was in a very dark place. I didn't want to leave BH and my M at all (I knew that during my A) But I just gave on everything. I was in crisis and in a desperate place. The A was the drug I used to escape myself. That was the realisation that came later in IC.
My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13
Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.
Did anyone's WW plan on marring the OM?
Yes. But thankfully I wised up before it ever got near that point.
Married 2.5 years
Reconciled after divorce
"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"
is it normal for the ws to avoid initiating conversations about their A? if so, why (shame, hoping the elephant in the room disappears, fear of hurting bs, ???)?
from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA
??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys
Will he ever feel bad for what he did? I was his third wife, he cheated on me and I found out he cheated twice on his second wife. He blamed me for the demise of the marriage.
I don't know what to expect from him during mediation. His attorney has taken on a very aggressive stance (he chose a very expensive, Beverly Hills attorney.). The last time I saw him, was at a social event, and he came up behind me, tapped me on the shoulder, said he just wanted to say Hi, and stuck out his hand to shake my hand. I don't want him to approach me.
I thought I knew who he was, but I did not.....
Yes. Even though I realize it is helpful for healing, talking about it is painful. It sends me into a spiral of depression. I worry about saying the "wrong" thing, or BH misinterpreting what I'm trying to say (that's more of a communication style thing - BH is very quick minded and confrontational, but it takes me longer to come up with appropriate words and I can't always respond as quickly or thoroughly). I guess I can also say that it gets frustrating going over the same questions. Sometimes BH will ask me something and I have to catch myself from saying "but I already answered that!".
I've also been thinking recently about how I feel like such a different person, that it is difficult to express how I did feel at the time and what I was really thinking. So now it's more like I'm guessing at what was in my subconscious and trying to make sense of it all. Things are so different now that I can barely remember the BH that I was so angry at, or myself that was feeling so desperate and lost.
Did anyone's WW plan on marring the OM?
Yes. But thankfully I wised up before it ever got near that point.
Did you plan to marry during the A or after? When I found these texts between my WW and OM, addressing him as Hubby and talking about being his wife I simply fell apart. I am not sure what to think upon discovering these things.
Does it mean I should just divorce and move on or should I just give it time. I already got the divorce papers and will be feeling them out tonight. Both limited and absolute.
I just don't know what to think... and just wish I could have some clear understanding.
I did have a revelation because the MC gave us some papers about forgiveness and it said, until the person is ready to take responsibility than I shouldn't reconcile with them.
Also, I read your profile, when you said you were fence sitting, can you tell me what that looked like for you?
[This message edited by LostSamurai at 8:59 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]
Guss - A little more insight would perhaps throw some light. WW is very good at lying and gas-lighting, rug-sweeping and minimizing the A. This was particularly the case in the early stages of the A. I know she is remorseful but, IMHO she is now driven more by shame, embarrassment and perhaps fear of the repercussions (i.e. collapse of the M) should more revelations occur.
Well, in truth, you live with her and have a history with her, so you would know more than I ever could as to her apparent level of remorse and regret and her actions regarding minimization and lying. I never doubted your apparent reality, I was just offering an alternative viewpoint for consideration. That said, the more we know, the more insight we do get into motivation and behavior.
Guss - However, what I have observed is that as I have been tightening the noose (forgive the euphemism) WW has become increasingly cagey, confused, panicky, paranoid. Hence my suspicions that they are still some lies lying underneath of which this (the real frequency of physical encounters) seems to be paramount.
If she actually goes from calm and quiet to agitated and excitable when you put the pressure on (the noose analogy seems harsh ), then it would seem that your suspicions have grounds. In my experience, when I struggled with admitting things, it comes out in defensive reactions of "i don't know, I'm not sure" rather than minimizing. But everyone's reaction can be different.
Guss - BTW, WW and AP1 were young lovers before our M.
Upon reading that statement, my first reaction, based on my own EA experience, would be that the "old flame / lost lover" history might support her claim that the affair was much more emotional as compared to a physical one. In my own affair, the emotional connection that I created in my fantasy world with the AP was paramount. In some respects, having a physical encounter would have put the whole EA thing at risk. In my EA driven fantasy, our kisses were like fire, creating sparks. In real life, she might have had bad breath and bad teeth. Keeping the fantasy alive is very important in a ex-lover relationship, specifically as teens and young adults. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200606/lost-love-guess-whos-back
Guss - Problem again for me in all this, is the apparent LYING. Or rather, what I consider to be her lying to minimize the damage ... Thatís what is frustrating my healing because it raises serious questions about her remorselessness.
Being remorseful does not automatically mean the WS stops lying, minimizing and defensive. If those are the default behaviors pre-A, they will continue to be the default behaviors post-A.
This is why putting the 180 into practice is imperative. By setting boundaries and following up with the consequences of non-compliance, it forces the WS to either shit or get off the pot. If you are still waiting for a detailed timeline, almost one year out, it appears that your are not being assertive enough. Maybe, you need to step up the game.
Dawn58 - Will he ever feel bad for what he did?
From what you wrote concerning his serial cheating history and the fact that you say he feels no remorse, I think the apparent answer is NO, he will never feel bad for betraying his vows with you. Chances are that if he is living with the OW, he has somehow managed to move on and put all the baggage in a very large room in the back of his head.
More importantly, since you are have been separated and he is currently living with the OW, the question remains why are you still fixated on what his feelings are? He's made his bed and has to live with his decisions. You have a new life in front of yourself and considering the history, you shouldn't be wasting any of your time and energy in the blame game.
As far as his expectations regarding divorce mediation, I would suggest that instead of just "wondering" about this, you need to sit down with your own lawyer as they are in the best place to determine that and advise you accordingly.
It was during the affair. I spent the majority of the affair either believing I would eventually get up the courage to leave my marriage for the OM or actively trying to muster up said courage (since it was not miraculously appearing on its own). After the affair was discovered, and then even after I was divorced, I felt that continuing a relationship with the OM (let alone marrying him) was not something I wanted to do.
Heartbroken0903 " I do believe that extramarital sex is an indicator of a flawed sense of self in the WS---lack of self-worth, lack of self-respect, lack of self-love."
Heartbroken - it is my understanding that most people have A because of a sense of self entitlement. Does this not mean that these types of people value themselves above all others, which contradicts what you say above about lack of self-worth, lack of self-love (IMO).
Or am I wrong to tar all WS with the same brush?
As a BS I currently lack self worth because of my WH betrayal.
[This message edited by Duskpearl at 5:32 AM, April 3rd (Thursday)]
Duskpearl - it is my understanding that most people have A because of a sense of self entitlement. Or am I wrong to tar all WS with the same brush?
YES, you're wrong in assuming that most people have their affairs due to a overblown sense of self-entitlement.
In truth, while me may fit into categories, the reality is that most of us came here via our own personal story. The reasons vary from WS to WS. In fact, determining why is the real job that a WS faces in the aftermath of the affair. Only by knowing how and why can we take confident steps to create a safe environment where we have the skills and knowledge to not repeat our mistakes again.
FOr instance, Ruth Huston figures that there are 25 reasons for cheating, Susan Krauss Whitbourne feels that there are 8 primary reasons and Renee Lee's claims there are only 5 reasons. Who do you figure is right?
Depending on the expert you listen to, they can be classed as bridge or exit affair, the self-serving affair or the the repair affair. Additionally, there are midlife crisis affairs, the revenge affair, the accidental affair, trading up affair, indulgence affair, the sexual addiction affair and the sexual deprivation affair. According to the experts, the act is the same but the driving motivation is different.
When even the experts can't agree, then we're faced with the realization that each affair is unique.
I believe that each type of affairs serves a different purpose for the WS. One may be motivated by compulsion, another by strong personal needs for excitement, another for revenge, another to maintain distance in all relationships another to project blame onto someone or something else.
It sounds obvious but its important to note that these motives do not derive from the marriage or BS but rather, the roots arise from the personal coping patterns of the WS. As well, these motives, patterns and characteristics more often than not were well set before the marital couple met. The WS, at some level, needed to "play out" these patterns. The sad reality is for some of us, most, if not all of this acting out, or the motives for acting out, was well beyond our conscious awareness and more a subconscious behavior.
To my regret, I have now learnt that my own heart and mind are not always my best friend either as I try to peel away the onion of intertwined thoughts, actions, emotions, fears, passions and destructive behaviours that brought me to this affair Ė HUFI
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 9:05 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)]
In my case, this is very true. I am open to talk anytime BW wants to. But there is so much shame. And those conversations always lead to BW crying and/or being angry. Those are all expected things, but that doesn't make them easier to get through. This is a reason for both WS and BS to avoid them.
I will open the door to see if BW wants to talk. I'll check in and say "do you want to talk" or "is there anything that you need to see or hear" or something like that. But if the answer is no, I don't continue.
I had a longer response typed but my phone ate it.
The short and sweet version is that I don't believe an overblown sense of entitlement and ego has anything to do with self-love or self-respect. Healthy people who love and respect themselves (and others) don't choose destructive and hurtful behavior.
[This message edited by hurtingarmywife at 10:34 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)]
My wh wanted to leave me for ow #1, but she wasnt having any of that and dumped him. He then moved on to ow #2.
He tells me he had "feelings" for Ow#1. More than once he has stated she was "fun" to be around. I sense that he still has feelings for her, feels the love (?) he had for her is unrequited and that he missed the opportunity to be with the one he wanted more than me. Though he denies this. But i listen and watch carefully to his responses to things and dont feel he is being truthful.
OW#1 was a blonde (i'm a brunette) and while watching tv last night, one came on and he sighed twice. I've noticed once before when a commercial was on about a woman and her truck (she drove one at the time) that he became angry, throwing something he was holding down onto his lap.
He also will refer to ow#2 as a pig, but doesnt give that designation to ow#1. Had sex with 2, but made love with #1.
What does this indicate? Can anyone help me identify what he is actually feeling at these times. I'm afraid i know, but i'm just looking for any other possible reasons.
thank you for your help
Am I wrong in thinking that? Or is that when I should bring it up? I don't bring it up to her anymore because the last time I did was two weeks after having been one of the places where she and AP1 had had sex. When I told her it'd been bothering me, she acknowledged she could tell at the time (what she did then was start talking about a remodeling project we wanted to do). She then said, "Let me tell you what's been bothering me for the last two months" and launched into a tirade about how I wasn't looking hard enough for a job (I was about 3 months unemployed at the time). So, since I felt like I was basically told "I don't give a damn how you feel about it" I decided to let her have it her way.
Anyway, the question is, during those times who should be the one to bring it up?
"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony