I suspect I may be reading too much into these statements, but would like to understand more.
For those of you who have had more than one dday, how was it possible for you to witness the distress and pain of your BS and STILL knowingly put them through it again? What internal messages did you give yourself that allowed it happen?
I have a question. Did you as the WS have a difficult relationship with your Mom and then play passive-aggressive with your BS?
And if so, what did you get out of it? How did it serve you?
I have a very long thread in R right now, "Feeling Nothing but Sad" or something like that and the last few comments - esp the one from brooke4 have hit home.
I don't think my H recognizes the pattern he throws us into. I don't even fully understand it but I really want too!
Neithan, could they have been madhatters? Usually when I see WS post about their own DDay, they mean "the day they found out their spouse cheated on them." Which could've been before or after they themselves cheated.
krispy47, I haven't, but I hope someone will respond.
LA44, I remember as a teenager not respecting Mom because she was so passive, she would never stand up to or chastise Dad even when he was being a jerk. The Man made all the decisions, and if The Woman didn't like it, tough. When Mom got pregnant with my sister, a "bonus child" (8 years my junior), Dad was mad at her! Didn't speak to her for three days! Fortunately Dad has mellowed over the years, and Mom has found her voice.
Shockingly after DDay I realized I'd been PA toward BH, yes. Shocking because I'm generally a bold, straightforward woman. The only way it served me, was to help me justify my A.
In my situation, at that time, I was doing everything I could to push my BW away. I was hoping to make it bad enough that she would give up and therefore be the one making the decision to D on her terms. It was messed up thinking.
For those who have multiple d-days from multiple affairs over time, if the WS is not doing the work you see WS's on SI doing, then it isn't surprising that they would do it again. And we all know that if they are doing it again, then it must be someone else's fault... so, if you're dealing with someone like that, just get out the "crazy" rubber stamp and hit them in the forehead when they're sleeping.
I believe we tend to marry people who remind us of our parents in an effort to right the wrongs we experienced back when we were kids. That isn't to say that everybody has some huge traumatic event that made them who they are. It's the opposite in fact. It can be so subtle that there is no indication that there was ever anything wrong, but if you start looking at the M and the interaction of the spouses, it often comes out that it is all about trying to get the upper hand, putting our spouses in the role of our parents, trying to fix something that was never able to be fixed when we were kids. And the worst part is, neither spouse is aware of what each other is trying to do.
This isn't just a WS problem, although it seems to be a common trend for many of us.
Until your WH finds a way to begin making this realization, there isn't much that can happen to improve the overall picture.
Just my two cents.
My relationship with my mother was an odd one. She was happy with me as long as I did what she wanted and if I didn't she would let me know I was a huge disappointment. She pitted my siblings and I against each other in a competition for her love and approval.
She rewarded my sneaky behavior towards others with her approval. My mother wanted me to remain a child forever. She is to this day a very manipulative person and likely personality disordered.
I was very passive aggressive in my M and in my life. I would play a victim and whine about how hard done by I was but not want to do anything about it which would frustrate my W. I refused to make decisions so I could blame my W later for them if something didn't work out.
I could write a book about the passive aggressive shit that I pulled in my M but since you asked what I specifically got out of it, I would have to say that I got the feeling of being smarter than everyone else because I felt I was pulling something over on people by keeping secrets and being vague about my feelings, any information or anything. That is the same feeling I had as a teenager and I carried it through to my M.
I led a life of inaction and resistance and because of that, there was no hope of having any true intimacy. I was always trying to avoid conflict but created more conflict through avoidance and not taking responsibility for my actions.
I blamed all my problems on everyone else other than myself, so I could maintain my victim role. I was extremely sarcastic and mean spirited to overcompensate for being insecure and tried to hide behind a smile.
I read your other thread and felt that your husbands actions were very petty and passive aggressive. He needs to recognize his actions are not serving him or your relationship well in the long run.
I agree with BaxtersBFF that I had to recognize this behavior myself. I brought it into my M and it came from my FOO and I had to make changes in my relationship with both my parents but especially my mother with setting boundaries. If I didn't do something about it for myself, not just on the surface for the M but really for me, I was never going to get better. It wouldn't have mattered who I was married to, I would have behaved the same with anyone, it was who I was.
If so please share what happened to make u want to go home, how long were u gone, did BS let u come back, did u R or D?
I know the fog can cloud the WS feelgs and thoughts about M and BS, but i am looking for answers from those who know they were unhappy and it wasnt just the fog
[This message edited by Imissmyhusb at 9:42 AM, April 20th (Sunday)]
[This message edited by Imissmyhusb at 2:23 PM, April 19th (Saturday)]
There are not many WS's here who've truly been unhappy. I'm sure they felt unhappy, but usually after the WS has already started down the slippery slope. I believe that the majority of WS's who say they are/were unhappy, were not able to truly assess they're own situation because they were in the A. The A messed up their thinking and their perception of the M.
Once a WS gets out of the A and starts doing the work, whether they are with their BS or not, they start to see things differently. At that point, the WS can make a real assessment as to their happiness in the M. The AP is just an excuse and doesn't have any real bearing on the happiness a WS may or may not have felt in the M.
So, those WS who did take off, or who were asked to leave (which is what many of us wanted while in the A) realized how stupid they were and realized what they have to lose in their BS. In a way, it can be a sort of selfish decision for the WS...meaning, the best option for them is usually to stay with the BS. Does that mean that the WS is not remorseful or sorry for what they've done and want to fix things? No. It's just a matter of the WS pulling their head out of their ass.
I believe that most WS's who took off, or who have stayed with the AP, are people who can't face their own fears. They can't ever take responsibility for what they've done. It will always be someone else's fault. If by chance that WS does start to see the light, usually it is too late to do anything to save the M. Something else that I know happens is that the WS will realize what they've done, but also realize that they made a choice they can't go back on anymore. So they stay with the AP and make the best of the situation. The one case like this that I know of is a situation where the WH does know what he did, feels sorry for it all, but realizes he can never go back to repair the damage. Now that he realizes all of this, he is choosing to stick with that choice he made over 30 years ago. Yes, he is happy with things now, but he also has to live with the knowledge of what he did to his family years ago.
I will only know this answer for my own situation when i ask WS to leave
[This message edited by Imissmyhusb at 5:27 PM, April 20th (Sunday)]
My BH wasn't abusive, but I feel our situation draws a parallel. He was a drug addict for our entire marriage, which affected our physical and emotional connection. He confessed to it only after he discovered my A.
If BH had continued his behavior, I do not think I would want to stay married to him. He has been in IC, rehab, and has made MAJOR changes in how he treats me. It is like we are in a different marriage. But I have to agree with the others that have said you can't really guide him, you can only take care of yourself, show him that you are working hard on change and demonstrate the changes when you have the time together. Show him your potential.
I have heard all the excuses, the "it just happened", the "I didn't expect to get caught", the "I thought you didn't love me," you forced me to do this," etc. etc. What I want other than excuses is the honest cold blooded truth as to how a man or woman does this to a so called best friend? And please don't advise me to ask my h. I have asked for 10 years and still to this day get all the excuses but never the truth. I will go to my grave wondering how a person can be so despicable to let this happen when involving their best friend who did nothing more than be a friend.
[This message edited by TICKED OFF at 3:52 PM, April 21st (Monday)]
HOWEVER, what baffles me to this day is, HOW THE HELL does a spouse, knowing it is DEAD WRONG, start up an affair with the spouse of a best friend/neighbor????
The word "knowingly" is important here. Waywards go through Olympic level mental gymnastics to remove that word from the sentence when they read it to themselves. We can come up with all kinds of ways to justify getting our needs met at your expense. And like Olympic level gymnasts, many of us trained to do it from an early age.
For myself, I started with the premise that I was not a bad person, and worked backward from there. Anything that was not consistent with that had to be ignored or distorted so that it was at least not directly in conflict with that idea. If your brain isn't wired this way, it's really hard to understand how it could be a real thing. But it very much is and it is insidious and hard to change. It can be done, but only with long term effort at what I have come to think of as brain rewiring.
I'm not sure if that is the kind of answer you were looking for, but it is what was true for me.
Digging our way through.
if it's a common phenomenon for WS' to feel their D-days are so different from their spouses.
We each consider a different day to be "D-day" if you will. For me, it's that day in early June 2010 when I finally got it that BS was not going to share my time and attention any more. At all. For BS the important day was 9 months later when I finally sent the letter permanently severing the relationship. I did not have contact with AP during that 9 months but BS still felt that I had not truly ended the affair until the letter was sent. He calls it "B-day" or Breakup Day.
So whatever these days are called, different events are bound to have different meanings and relevance to each person working through the healing process.
Question for WWs. My FWW's AP is a person whose body type is/was physically repulsive to her yet she still did the deed
I was a fat kid and it was made clear to me by my family and the rest of the world as well that it is not okay to be fat under any circumstances. It is also okay to tell people that they are disgusting because they are fat. They pretty much deserve it for just being fat. It's probably their fault they are so fat anyway. So shutting off my relationship with the emotion of disgust was more or less an emotional survival technique for me.
Disgust, as it turns out, is a really important survival emotion. Its whole purpose is to steer you away from things that are unwholesome and dangerous to your emotional and physical health. Like all emotions, it can become pathological when it's turned completely off or when it's turned up to 11 all the time or focused on to the exclusion of other emotions. For me, the problem was that when you tend to be numb the feeling of disgust, you are able to do disgusting things without experiencing the emotional cues that let you feel that it is disgusting.
Wrap that deficit up with never-built boundaries (who needs 'em, when your a fat kid and no one ever approaches you "that way" except for that one time when your older cousin decides it's okay to try to get you to masturbate him) and some confusion between the intensity of feelings and the validity for their basis and you have at least a way that a person (me) could end up having sex with a fat, messy person in an effort to meet their emotional needs and not feel disgusted. I did feel bad about lying to my BS but beyond that I thought I was a special sort of person that needed two people to feel "complete" and that could "love someone for who they were, not what they looked like".
That is the sort of Olympic-level mental gymnastics I am talking about when I talk about how my wayward brain was wired. A bunch of crap I was not even aware of, and a whole bunch of other crap I had to willfully ignore. It's hard to fathom if your brain is not wired this way, but mine was and I'm working daily to rewire that sucker. One neuron at a time. I hope this gives some insight you were looking for.
And sadly that is what it is all about, to know AND be willing to make the wrong choice at the expense of so many others. Thank you so much for this answer. If my h would just admit to this to me and himself I think we would be leaps and bounds ahead of the game (10 yrs out now) and not just in a "settle" marriage.