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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 8
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 1:14 AM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

0903 - i know you're the kind that takes responsibility for yourself and therefore wouldn't blame your AP for your own actions. I get that and respect that. Nevertheless, I see your AP as a POS. He actively sought to take you from your XH. He knew you were married and didn't care. He wanted you regardless of the stab in the back he was encouraging you to do to your husband. He encouraged you to destroy your husband. Even after D-Day, you posted that he didn't really care about the devastation the two of you caused your XH. My question is, what do you think of your former star-crossed lover now? What opinion do you have of him? I'm not sure I could achieve indifference.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mike7,

You are correct. That is how he was. You can't even imagine how much he simply did not care about what he was doing. He only thought it was wrong because I got hurt in the end (according to him at the time). I don't think he actively enjoyed hurting XH or did it in the first place because he was "out to get him"....he simply did not care. He wanted what he wanted and took it without regard for anyone else.

Sounds familiar to me...I was the same.

What opinion do you have of him? I'm not sure I could achieve indifference.

When I first arrived at SI, I posted about how much I hated him and how much of a POS I thought he was. A couple of years after D-day, I removed those comments from my profile. My perspective had shifted by that point. I realized that had I not allowed him---GIVEN him---the power to cause my XH's devastation, there was no way he could have. I believe that this whole mess starts and ends with me.

I am more indifferent to him than anything else. I think what he did was really disgusting, shitty, cowardly, you name it. I don't believe evil was at the root of it. More than anything, I believe he is selfish and immature. I believe those traits drove his behavior. I believe that's one of the biggest reasons we were attracted to each other, FWIW---I too was very selfish and immature.

If I am angry at him for anything it is for how cruel to and disrespectful he was of my XH. I didn't care during the affair, because I was too busy being disrespectful of him myself. I care now. I will not allow anyone to disrespect my XH again.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2143 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 9:08 PM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

as usual, a thoughtful answer. thank you. I was thinking to myself that you were just a newlywed as was your XH and what a creep this guy must be to try to break that up. While I think he's obviously a creep that really just labels him. It doesn't describe "why" he's a creep. I don't know him, but I think you're right. He's probably not evil. just selfish. That doesn't excuse it of course. I liked your last paragraph the most. That's what I was hoping you'd say.

[This message edited by mike7 at 8:41 PM, June 8th (Sunday)]


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, June 10th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I am angry at him for anything it is for how cruel to and disrespectful he was of my XH. I didn't care during the affair, because I was too busy being disrespectful of him myself. I care now. I will not allow anyone to disrespect my XH again.

That's a very profound statement.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
SI Staff
Moderator
Member # 10
Red  Posted: 7:18 PM, June 10th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

*****General Reminder*****

Please remember that this thread is specifically for BS Questions for Waywards. Other comments and types of replies need to take place in the other forums.

Thank you.


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
devotedfool68
♂ Member
Member # 38047
Question  Posted: 1:18 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question for WS who did not have remorse immediately on dday.

When it eventually came:

1) What triggered reaching remorse?

2) Was it sudden? like an epiphany or was it gradual, slowly developing?

How long is TOO LONG to wait for true remorse to take hold and remain hopeful?


Posts: 209 | Registered: Jan 2013
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 6:35 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Q. What triggered reaching remorse?
A. Reconnecting with my emotions, which took several months of IC.

Q. 2) Was it sudden? like an epiphany or was it gradual, slowly developing?
A. A gradual epiphany. One day the big icy bucket of "OMG what have I done?!" did dump itself over my head, but I'd been filling it up for awhile.

Q. How long is TOO LONG to wait for true remorse to take hold and remain hopeful?

A. One day more than you're willing to. It took me about 8 months to get to true remorse, but from DDay I knew I wanted to R (I know, how generous of me ) and by one month out I was fully NC, outed APs to their wives, and had found a therapist. And I've been a regular on SI the whole time. Still picking 2x4 splinters out of my keyboard.

ETA: NC and outing the APs were not my idea, nor were they demands with which I enthusiastically complied, FTR.

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 6:43 PM, June 12th, 2014 (Thursday)]


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1179 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
devotedfool68
♂ Member
Member # 38047
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks 20.
Seems like I rarely get many replies. All are greatly appreciated!!

I am almost 2 years out. WW did NOT know she wanted to R on dday. She coveted other OM for over a year at least, even though he effectively moved on after 6 weeks.

She never left but she continued to try to get him while bringing me closer the. Pushing me away time and again. She finally went NC after sending him a scalding email. I am not sure to this day that if he had tried to smooth it over that I would even know that she sent it.

A month later I got a timeline filled with blame shifting. That was 6 months ago and she has told me that she would like a D as recently as 6 days ago.
I know that she is still lying about complaining about me to the BFF that introduced and facilitated her A. I called her on it and she lied to my face.

Strangely, I think that if I would rugsweep, she would b more than happy to stay with me. It seems all of out "current" issues are driven by the fact that I do not believe that she truly gets it and still need to discuss the affair. I can't count the number if times I have heard "throw it In My face" and "walking on eggshells".

I am really wondering if I am out of my mind to wait?


Posts: 209 | Registered: Jan 2013
ifeellikeafool
♀ Member
Member # 43507
Default  Posted: 2:40 AM, June 13th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi I have a question when I first busted my WH he lied and said the AP was innocent he tried but she turned him down. They had a EA . My question is is that normal for a WS to do that? My dday was march 27 and he finally admitted she started it may 1 st. It just makes me mad I think he thought he loved he still. He says he loved us both but I just don't know I would have been a lot better if he was honest from day 1. He is taking IC and we r both in MC . I love him but am I wasting my time please WS please answer I want as many answers as possible please.


Me BS 32
My WH 44
Dday march 27,2014
Around 2005 he went to one of those message places off craigslist
2002 few months of M tried with BF she said no so he got BJ from maid of honor

Posts: 51 | Registered: May 2014 | From: California
heartbroken2012
♀ Member
Member # 38089
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, June 13th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi, this was part of my post in General, but I wanted to ask what waywards thought...

Last night I searched WH's browsing history on his phone, and found porn. I confronted him, and he said he didnt look at that stuff and that his phone must have been hijacked, or something he downloaded must have had a virus. He denies he looked at that.

I have NEVER found porn on his computer or phone before (and I have checked for suspicious things for a while).

When i confronted him, he didnt get mad or defensive, he asked why I was checking and I told him that I needed to feel safe. He said he understood. Wouldnt he have got mad if he was really looking at it?

Does this sound right to you?

If he is looking at porn this will really hurt my feelings, since he hardly ever wants sex...so something must be wrong with me?


BS(Me) - 32
WS(HUbbie) - 40
OW - 44 (a ugly, old, white trash horse faced Coworker)
Affair was 2 months long
3 kids - 5yr old, and twins 8 months
Dday - 12/25/12 (lots of signs before I should have seen)

Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2013
familyfirst
♀ Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, June 13th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

devotedfool68

It took me a couple months from NC to reach remorse. I was still in the fog and romanticizing the A. As soon as I could see the harm my A was doing and how I risked everything for it, I was filled with huge remorse.

ifeellikeafool

I am no expert, but it seems like most WS blame their AP for starting the A instead protecting them. I'm not sure it matters though. I know it probably seems like the initiator is more "guilty" but really both people in the affair have equal responsibility. If you love you H, and he's making the effort in IC and MC then absolutely I don't think you're wasting your time.

heartbroken2012

If you open up one porn site, your phone can launch others, but usually you have to be on something pretty sketchy for that to happen. A good liar could mask his reaction to your discovery so I'm not sure that's a foolproof way to determine guilt. If you have his passwords, keep checking.


Posts: 201 | Registered: Mar 2014
RegretfulHusband
♂ Member
Member # 41873
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, June 13th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

heartbroken2012,

As a Wayward, and an I.T. worker, here is my response.

I confronted him, and he said he didn't look at that stuff and that his phone must have been hijacked, or something he downloaded must have had a virus. He denies he looked at that.

Are you certain it was porn, or could it perhaps have been an ad for a singles site, etc., that appeared like porn? Depending on which device he has (iPhone, Android, etc.) the teams that monitor apps are pretty diligent about testing and ensure there are no "easter eggs" (something programmed in but hidden and hard to find) in terms of functionality, or anything that could violate their standards, privacy laws, etc.

Just saying it's not that simple to get a virus that turns out to be porn - but it definitely is possible.

I have NEVER found porn on his computer or phone before (and I have checked for suspicious things for a while).

The last thing I want to do is raise suspicious where they don't need to be raised, but it's easy enough to delete browser history, use privacy settings, etc. If you know your H and trust him, then I would believe him, but it's not that hard to "hide" what you're doing - especially on newer devices.

When i confronted him, he didnt get mad or defensive, he asked why I was checking and I told him that I needed to feel safe. He said he understood. Wouldnt he have got mad if he was really looking at it?

If he's a truly remorseful Wayward, he will understand anything you need to do to feel safe. And in my opinion, your confidence in his not watching it and his "I understand" seems to indicate he really means it.

If he is looking at porn this will really hurt my feelings, since he hardly ever wants sex...so something must be wrong with me?

TOTALLY understand why this would hurt your feelings (if it turned out to be true), but NOTHING is wrong with you.

Your H betrayed your trust once upon a time, and you are doing what you feel is necessary to feel safe with him again.

Whether it's 4 weeks out or 40 years out, I will never forget what I did to my wife, and will never put myself in a position again where I need to lie, cover up, or hide anything from her, even when it's embarrassing.

My wife doesn't object to porn, so I don't have to hide it, but even with the level of comfort we have, it's embarrassing to me to admit that I watch it occasionally, but I am trying to quit.

Hope this helps - but remember, there is NOTHING wrong with you, especially if you're checking for your own safety, and not throwing it in his face.


Me: FWH, 34
Her: BS, 33
Married: 6 years
Together: 10+ years
Kids: 2 Boys under 5

DDay1: 7+ years ago
DDay2: 1.5 years ago

"The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable."


Posts: 142 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: United States
ifeellikeafool
♀ Member
Member # 43507
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, June 13th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks family first

Yes the fact he protected her really upsets me. He says he was still holding on to the fantasy. I know he doing all the therapy it just would have made me feel so much better if he was honest when I got him. I'm always gonna wonder if deep down he really loves her. Which really sucks because I have invested 12 years into my marriage then some howorker came come and screw up everything.


Me BS 32
My WH 44
Dday march 27,2014
Around 2005 he went to one of those message places off craigslist
2002 few months of M tried with BF she said no so he got BJ from maid of honor

Posts: 51 | Registered: May 2014 | From: California
hpv50
♀ Member
Member # 39703
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, June 13th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi, I have a few a questions about IC:

1. Did you talk to your BS about what you were covering in IC (generalities) and/or did BS ask you to cover some things?

2. Did your BS ever meet your IC, and if so, how did those sessions go?

My WH is a vulnerable NPD and is very secretive about his IC sessions. He feels threatened and controlled very easily. I don't want him to feel controlled, but would like to know that he's owning his stuff and working on himself. He quit the first IC after 5 months and is now threatening to quit the second.

Thanks!


Me: BS - 50; Him: WH - 51, vulnerable NPD
married 19 years, maybe 20th soon?
DD1 4/22/13 (hpv diagnosis)
DD2 5/9/13 (gaslighting begins)
DD3 6/30/13 (admits EA)
DD4 7/7/13 admits "trying to date other women" for 3 years

Posts: 139 | Registered: Jun 2013
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, June 15th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hpv50, sorry you didn't get any replies yet. I've been in IC since about 6 weeks after DDay, which was about 20 years later than I should've. Oh well. As the saying goes, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, but the second-best time is now.

BH usually asks me how my session went. Honestly, when he asks, I can't usually remember. But then 12-36 hours later, it's as if the session finally gels in my mind and I start sharing insights. So yes, he asks, and I legitimately don't usually have much to share immediately afterward, but I almost always spontaneously bring up insights or revelations within a couple of days.

2. Yeah, I brought BH in to IC#1 a couple times at it was a disaster. He felt "ganged up on" and he wasn't entirely off base. A few months later I found a new counselor to serve as our MC, he gave BH a few IC sessions, and again when we met up for MC he felt attacked. Too soon I guess. I'm totally fine with BH knowing anything IC and I talk about, and I'd be glad for him to accompany me anytime. Clearly I'm the one who led the double life and lied to BH, so part of R IMO is being completely transparent WRT my mental/emotional recovery.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1179 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
EvolvingSoul
♀ Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 10:10 PM, June 15th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

devotedfool68
1) What triggered reaching remorse?
2) Was it sudden? like an epiphany or was it gradual, slowly developing?
I don't think it was a specific thing that triggered it. It was a slow process of learning to see other people as people, rather than as sources of feelings. Once I began to see my BS as a person I was able to empathize with him and it's then that I began to realize the depth of the damage I had done to him, myself, our relationship, the whole deal. I would say it took maybe...about two years for me to get that far along in the rewiring of my brain and even then it was not like flipping on a switch. Just a slow change in the way I thought about things. At some point the changes started to snowball and I found myself tumbling along in an avalanche of "getting it".
How long is TOO LONG to wait for true remorse to take hold and remain hopeful?
Oh gosh well you know the answer to that is within you. I would guess a lot would depend on what evidence exists that your WS is trying to fix themselves. It took me a long time but I was actually working at it the whole time. It was just a very slow process for me and fortunately my BS was willing to hang on while I went through it. He was also willing to keep pushing me on what he needed to heal. Some of those things I have only been able to give to him recently. So yeah. Slow process.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 302 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
EvolvingSoul
♀ Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, June 15th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hpv50
1. Did you talk to your BS about what you were covering in IC (generalities) and/or did BS ask you to cover some things?
Kind of a mixed bag. In the early days I did not talk to him as much about what was going on in my sessions because I was still pretty delusional about the nature of AP and that is what I was working through at the request of our couples counselor. BS did not want to hear that stuff and I don't blame him.

As far as suggesting what to cover, it was our MC that suggested, after 3 or 4 sessions with us, that we suspend MC until I had worked through some of my personal stuff. It was the best thing anyone could have suggested. I had done IC before but never with complete honesty.

Nowadays I frequently talk to BS about what I am working on in IC. There are times I'm rather vague with the details if I am not ready or don't want to share them with him but by and large I at least tell him if it was a good session or rough or whatever. He is always respectful of my decision as far as how much I want to share. We have more or less the same arrangement for his own IC and I would say that on the whole he shares less with me than I do with him.

Did your BS ever meet your IC, and if so, how did those sessions go?
No he has not met her, except in passing as she is in the same office as his previous IC. I don't think they ever spoke but he knows who she is. Pretty much the same with his IC, I spoke to him once just in passing as I was waiting for my own appointment. His new IC I have never met.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 302 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 12:56 AM, June 16th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm curious about EAs that are later discovered as or admitted to be PAs. I was TT'd for four months after DDay 1, which was actually the second EA, while WS was still outright lying about the first EA. I still don't have all the particulars about the first EA, though WS has promised me a timeline. It seems that so many discover later that it was actually a PA.

Also, while I understand that a build up of resentment led to the act as an independent response to issues in our relationship, now seeing how horrible WS's boundaries were the whole time I'm struggling to believe that I discovered the only two that happened. Mostly because I had to discover them, but also because of her history of both TT and crappy boundaries. I have also learned to trust my gut, and there was another time prior to these two that my gut felt similarly to the time during both EAs.

She emphatically denies any PA and insists there are no more. Since we began R after a month separation her remorse has slowly grown and we are both in IC and MC. She's doing what she can emotionally (which has been progressively better over time), being transparent and accountable, saying she's sorry, and doing little things to improve our lives and meet my needs. It bothers me that she's avoiding the truth (it's been 5 months since we began R and I told her I needed to know the worst of what she did, 6 weeks since she finally promised me a timeline to help her remember because it was almost 3years ago now) about her engagement with AP 1 from DDay 2 (I got a timeline for AP 2 from DDay1 before DDay 2). It's as if her avoidance is fear, and if she's scared of what she did then I'm doubly scared. She says she understands how devastating TT was and, other than the information she's jogging her memory to recover about AP 1, she's shared all the information. But she said that before DDay 2, although the progress she seems to have made makes it more believable.

Also, she knew from day 1 of our relationship that I would not tolerate cheating in it. I think because they were EAs, she didn't think she was cheating at the time. It's possible that she might keep information about PA for fear I will leave. And I can't promise I wouldn't.

So my questions...

1. How many EAs are later discovered to be PAs?

2. If you kept the PA a secret, why did you do it? What did it take to finally admit it to your BS? If you still haven't, why not?

3. What are the odds that it was a PA (4000 texts in 6 weeks and the ones I know about WS was requesting the AP get rid of her BS so she could come over to have sex, and a text about having a quickie in a closet when it didn't pan out--btw, who mentions having quickies when romancing someone before any physical contact occurred?)?

4. Am I right to consider that there are more I haven't discovered that she's not telling me? If there are two that I "found" after I woke up from what I thought was my security blanket, then isn't that a pattern that points to so much more?

5. Does the WS truly forget their involvement with an AP given the emotional charge from the rush of attention? Is compartmentalization so powerful that it is forgotten or unretrievable?

Thanks in advance for your honesty and thoughts. I have so much respect for those not only taking on the task of addressing the personal issues that surround wayward behavior, but the compassion and empathy shown in "giving back" by opening up old wounds to assist others.


WS: 39--2 EAs
BS: 39--me, faithful
DS: 6
9 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 609 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
hpv50
♀ Member
Member # 39703
Default  Posted: 4:57 AM, June 16th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

20wrpngs & Evolving, thanks.


Me: BS - 50; Him: WH - 51, vulnerable NPD
married 19 years, maybe 20th soon?
DD1 4/22/13 (hpv diagnosis)
DD2 5/9/13 (gaslighting begins)
DD3 6/30/13 (admits EA)
DD4 7/7/13 admits "trying to date other women" for 3 years

Posts: 139 | Registered: Jun 2013
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:28 AM, June 16th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did any BS (particularly BH) start the divorce proceedings after DDAY and then stop because you FWS wanted to R?

During MC, were any of you in Limbo of staying/going?

Thanks

***Sorry for posting a statement***


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
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