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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: The long term effects of lying
HurtButHopeful?
♀ Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I trusted Mr. HBH completely pre-A in that I didn't think he ever lied to me. We had disagreements on how he handled things, versus how I handle things, and sometimes I felt he completely ignored my input. But I never thought he was purposely hiding anything.

Then came the A, and later porn use. I learned after 19 years of M, that he is skilled at lying.

He quit both, and is committing to be a better person, and has been successful staying away from those things. I talk to him about my own desire to live an authentic life in every way, and he is wanting the same for himself. He is looking forward to reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert Glover, which will help him learn how to live more authentically.

Now that his job security is in danger, due to the rumors that the higher ups have decided to close his branch by Jan 1, I am feeling all kinds of anxiety about it. Add to that a new problem: I'm wondering if he is telling me the whole truth, or is leaving things out.

This morning, I asked to see his work phone. I was worried he had actually was fired, and that he was trying to concoct a story, while he was still pretending to go to work. He was very calm, and told me he still has his work computer too. Later we talked on the phone and I shared my concerns that I still don't trust him to tell me unpleasant truths about himself, in an attempt to avoid conflict.

Those of you who have been in R longer than I have, do you ever trust your spouse in non A related areas 100%? I understand not trusting them 100% with other women, but what about other areas?


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
lhhell
♀ Member
Member # 40332
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd like to know the answer to this one as well from those that have been at it longer


Me: BS
Him: WH
Dday: Jan 4, 2013

Posts: 52 | Registered: Aug 2013
bobf
♂ Member
Member # 41412
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Everyone's circumstances are different. That plays a huge part in rebuilding or failing to rebuild trust. My wife is very remorseful, sincere and open about her OEA after a short period of TT. Had it not been for the TT I think I could learn to trust her 100% in all things. Because of the TT, in matters of the heart, I will probably always fall short of 100%. How short will depend on how our lives play out together over what I hope is the rest of our lives together. I hope it builds to 99.99% but I don't think it will ever be 100%.


Me: BH early 50s
Her: fWW late 40s (kmom2662)
7 Wk OEA, Skype, Cyber
DDay 10-4-13
Married 20+ years
Currently in R

Posts: 143 | Registered: Nov 2013
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 6:04 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In my situ. NO I dont trust WW 100%. I would say 60% trust is about where I am. Her usual activity I trust. But sometimes I see LTA behavior being repeated (old habits of hers) and I get anxiety as my trust in her drops.

Every situ is different. It depends on just how willing your WS is to be completely transparent without resentment. How truthful they have been about all aspects of their affair. And really what kind of affair plays into it to because LTAs can be a really different and nasty animal.

I will NEVER trust WW 100% again. So IMO 60% is pretty good.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
HurtButHopeful?
♀ Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you all for your support. Sometimes I wonder if people think I am just a pain in the a*s, and that they would just rather put me on "ignore," if they have purchased that option. I wonder if my RL friends had the "ignore" option if they would use it.

I've been here for 4 years, 2 years since DD#2, and I'm still whining, while others have gotten on with their lives much sooner. I'm having a down day. His potential job change has me triggering, and all my insecurities are surfacing. I really want to crawl in my shell, but I know it is better to be vulnerable and reach out. Man it is scary.

ihhell, we're all there with you. I learn so much from other people's posts too.

bobf, 99.9% would be fine for me. Hey, no one is perfect, and that .1% allows for that. If my H didn't trust me .1% I wouldn't be offended, and I didn't even cheat!

Razor, I don't know if I could live indefinitely with 60% trust. That's so close to a coin flip. You are a much stronger person than I. Mr. HBH is being transparent, but I have to ask the right questions. He isn't talkative, and he doesn't volunteer what is going on in his head or heart. He will talk about things going on outside of him but not what is going on inside. There are plenty of writers and speakers who say men and women communicate differently, so I chalked it up to that.

Now that I know he kept secrets, I don't trust the silence. Is anyone else in R regarding the A, but still worried about WS having integrity in other areas of life now that they know they can actually lie with a straight face?


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Persevere19
♀ New Member
Member # 41634
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm new here but had to respond to this topic. My WS lied our whole 26 years of marriage even through previous counceling. Then proof of PA was found out and then he admitted to a few PA. But our current counceling offered a polygraph test. That's when full disclosure took place. Full Reconciliation can not take place w/o full disclosure. And he has to take a poly every 4 months the first year and then every year after that for the rest of his life. This may sound harsh but this is the only thing that brought the truth out. This also keeps me from having to be a detective the rest of our marriage. I don't have to check his electronics for his activities. Just my two cents and experience with a chronic lier. All the lies are finally gone!!!! Only because of the poly.

BW-46
WS-49
Married-26 yrs
D-day 9-16-13


BW-47had no idea
WH-50, too many PA, porn, Web cam, one 1 1/2 year LTA with co-worker
Married-26 yrs in a fake marriage
D-day Sept 16,13 and still continues to dribble out because he doesn't even remember all that he's done!
3 kids - 24,23,19

Posts: 22 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Mountain time
FeelingMN
♂ Member
Member # 32240
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was TT'd and gaslighted for months and months, revealing lie after lie. FWW is a conflict avoider too which is something that I've said has to change in order for me to stay. Believing is still an issue with me. I think I have mostly truth and probably some lies by omission still but I've had to decide to let that part go. Non-A related stuff is sometimes hard to believe, especially if my FWW is having an issue with something. Especially if the issue is something I've said or done. It isn't easy wondering if you know what's going on. Wondering if your getting lead on.


Me 41
fWW 37
DD(19), DS(17), DD(11) (Mine, hers, ours)
Together 14y, Married 12
DDay Aug 2010, 4 mos TT & gaslighting
ONS + EA after 15yr Class reunion out of state

Posts: 267 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Minnesota
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For the lies that continued for years and then the ones that started after confession the cost is I still don't believe half of what he says. Will I ever believe he is telling me the whole truth and nothing but the truth? To be honest I don't think so. I am really considering asking him to take a poly so I know he is capable of telling the truth.

Woulnd't it be nice to believe the lying spouse again?


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, this is a tough one for me. I'm only 4 months out from D-day and I definitely don't feel I can trust WS yet. Before the A I never knew him to lie. Not once ever did I catch him in one. Maybe I was na´ve. Maybe he is just that good at doing it. Maybe, just maybe, that was the only time he ever lied to me. But here's the kicker...on D-day when I asked him if he had ever had an inappropriate conversation with OW he straight up looked me in the eye and said, "No, not that I can recall." When I asked if he was sure he again said, "No not that I can remember." His voice didn't shake and he didn't seem off in any way or appear nervous.

But as I typed this out and really think back I just came to a realization. He said "not that I can recall" Someone who never participated in such an act wouldn't say that. They would say, "No, of course not!" Of course I know he was lying at that time but I may have just discovered a way to detect lies. There are many times he can't remember certain things and says things like "I don't remember...", "No, I don't think so", "I can't remember what that was about..." Wow, I always believed he was just forgetful....hahaha....how stupid am I?

I may have to go back over some details tonight to get some real truths. At least now, I may be able to realize he is actually lying. He has never offered me any information that I did not find out on my own.

This lying thing throws me for a loop. Yes, I've lied about silly things...white lies mainly. I lie a lot about my feelings but generally because I am afraid to express them. But, when I am guilty of something I come clean. I am a confessor. I can't hold it in because it will eat me alive.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
HurtButHopeful?
♀ Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mr. HBH called after my first appointment with my new IC. I talked to him about what I would have rather heard him say on DDay #2. He agreed he should have been honest and not tried to play mind games to hide what he had been doing.

I read here that we should focus on the now, not on the past when in R. Then I read that the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. My brain can't seem to meld the two ideas together, as they seem opposites. I tend to focus on the latter, forgetting the former.

How do you put the two together?


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
HurtButHopeful?
♀ Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Persevere,
All the lies are finally gone!!!!
I imagine that takes a lot of weight off your mind. Do you just cover fidelity in the poly, or does it also cover "little" areas? I don't know if that would work for a person who is a conflict avoider who doesn't even realizing that leaving out little details, feigning interest when they have none, and all other subtle behaviors that they don't consider "lying."

FeelingMN, WS being a conflict avoider doesn't help build trust at all. I know exactly what you are experiencing. We want truth in all areas, not just in A related areas.

(((((Dallas)))))

cl13176,

He said "not that I can recall" Someone who never participated in such an act wouldn't say that. They would say, "No, of course not!"
What your H did takes real skill. He said something that wasn't a "No" but you understood it to be a "No" so you were satisfied and backed off. Now that you realize even his answers are framed to manipulate what you hear, you have to dissect every thing he says, to make sure he is really saying what you think he is saying. My H did this for years about non-A related things, and now I realize he had a type of code language that I didn't recognize because I was not familiar with it. Now I'm onto it, and I analyze everything that comes out of his mouth.

He is finally beginning to realize what he has been doing. I won't live with a liar for the rest of my life, and he now wants to start living authentically...he just has to learn how.

He printed off the first chapter of No More Mr. Nice Guy and is reading it. He has already told me something that is wrong with it, how he is not like the guys in the book. I wish he'd read it looking for what is right with it as much as he wants to prove it wrong.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What your H did takes real skill. He said something that wasn't a "No" but you understood it to be a "No" so you were satisfied and backed off. Now that you realize even his answers are framed to manipulate what you hear, you have to dissect every thing he says, to make sure he is really saying what you think he is saying. My H did this for years about non-A related things, and now I realize he had a type of code language that I didn't recognize because I was not familiar with it. Now I'm onto it, and I analyze everything that comes out of his mouth.

I think you are right! That was one thing that always boggled my mind because as far as I knew he never lied but he may very be a very skilled liar. Oh joy! He is a very smooth talker....I already knew this and he always sounds oh so convincing. I guess I will attempt to go back and ask questions again to see how he reacts. How do you get someone like that to tell the truth? He has agreed to a polygraph, as soon as we can afford one I am insisting on it. I'm so over this "I swear on the kids, I promise you, I can't remember" bullshit.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
Persevere19
♀ New Member
Member # 41634
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hurtbuthopeful,

The poly covers basic A questions like: have you groomed anyone for sex. Have you made any phone calls or electronic messages of a sexual nature. Several questions I can't think of but then i can ask any questions I want that are yes or no questions. Sure takes your mind off!


BW-47had no idea
WH-50, too many PA, porn, Web cam, one 1 1/2 year LTA with co-worker
Married-26 yrs in a fake marriage
D-day Sept 16,13 and still continues to dribble out because he doesn't even remember all that he's done!
3 kids - 24,23,19

Posts: 22 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Mountain time
mindbody
♀ Member
Member # 27941
Default  Posted: 5:48 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HBH, I think I understand what you are concerned about. To think that Mr. HBH can conceal, hide, omit or lie about a situation that completely affects you, not A related, after all this time in R - is very disturbing. I have been through the same senarios over the R years.

To answer your question: as long as this method of coping, avoiding conflict, and I believe controlling you are behaviors that Mr. HBH is choosing, I don't think you can trust that he has healed, addressed or learned to change his issues. I have to add that even though this is not A related, the same behaviors were present during the A. That's the scariest part.

In our case, WSO is aware that he does this and I can see that he is trying to change it. To be honest, humor is what is working best for him in catching himself falling back on these behaviors. It allows him to catch his own faulty patterns and speak up in jest, admitting it outloud to me.

I know in your case there is nothing funny about Mr. HBH losing his job. It seems there is a panic that can make WSO defensive and any questioning or trying to address an issue SEEMS like an interrogation. Perhaps Mr. HBH has this same learned behavior and is avoiding any involvement through conversation with you.

Because WSO is being so honest and truthful about faithfulness and boundaries, he can forget that lying by ommision or withholding information regarding non-A related issues are so important in rebuilding the trust too.

You said you told him about your concerns and you are now still worried his isn't being forthright. Tell him that even though this is not A related, it's his chance to prove to you that HE wants to be trustworthy in all areas of your M.


Posts: 306 | Registered: Mar 2010
WaryOptimist
♀ Member
Member # 19911
Default  Posted: 9:25 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought about the issue of trust just today as I was driving.

You see, my H's profession is parsing words; he can craft a letter like no one else, to say as much or as little as he wants. It's absolutely second nature to him to minimize.

On top of that, he is conflict avoidant, and BP2.

The last few days it's been very tense. I'm convinced he's cycling. He's making arrangements that I learn about through reading responses to his emails -- huge trigger, as that's how I found out about the A. He's trying to hire a lawyer to pursue a lawsuit (a high risk situation, in my opinion, and I don't have the stomach for it), lining up the sale of his truck to pay the atty, when we have so little money, certainly NONE to spare. And that sale, if he truly is willing to give up his beloved vehicle, could go towards fixing our heat pumps and many other far more immediate things.

High risk, that's what I realized; the A, other behavior of his, he has a very high threshold, and can play a wicked game of chicken. Hell, he was willing to risk everything -- and did, too, for the OW. Which makes me feel expendible.

So... he omits, prevaricates, and minimizes. Call it what it is: Lying. And then he's surprised when I ask whether he went ahead doing something I asked him not to do.

Yeah, go figure. Thanks to everything I've experienced from him, the trust level is at least at Razor's 60%, maybe at the 50% coin toss.

Sorry, end of ranting t/j. This hit a nerve.


Me: The faithful one
Him: WS
4 great kids
Married 28 years, together 36
D-Day: April 1, 2006 (yep, April Fool's Day...)
Aaaaaas Yoooouuu Wiiiiiish...

Posts: 650 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Here & There
HurtButHopeful?
♀ Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you everyone. This is such a difficult topic, because it has been difficult for to recognize, then to put into words. I'm glad there are others who can identify and help describe it.

Mindbody:

as long as this method of coping, avoiding conflict, and I believe controlling you are behaviors that Mr. HBH is choosing, I don't think you can trust that he has healed, addressed or learned to change his issues. I have to add that even though this is not A related, the same behaviors were present during the A. That's the scariest part.
You nailed it! As long as he hasn't healed that, those coping methods could allow him to slip closer to A territory again. That's why, in order for me to feel safe in this M, I NEED him to heal those things in himself.

He took me on a date last night. I "ruined" it by bringing up some issues in an effort to be authentic. I read so many mature, selfless people here on SI, not wanting to ruin every moment, and being considerate of their WS's feelings. But I want so badly for our M to be whole, that I am constantly bringing up things, in an effort to identify problems, deal with them, start the process of healing the damage caused.

Mr. HBH handled the conversation well, because he allowed himself to get upset without blaming, deflecting, or shutting down! I can handle some emotion on his part, and he got to experience my response, when he communicates in a healthy way. He explained his perspective, and that is a new thing.

He also brought up something that I didn't know about himself as an offer of his vulnerability. It wasn't A or even M related, but I appreciated that she shared something personal about himself.

I heard that when a couple finds themselves distancing and FOOL (falling out of love) with each other, they should go back to what made them fall in love. I told Mr. HBH that because of things he told OW about why he M me, and because of his CA and hiding parts of himself from me, I don't think the man I FIL with is even existent. I have nothing real to go back to so I can fall back in love with him. I also told that because of what he told her, I'm not even sure he ever L me, but he is in the M to save face to his family and friends, and not lose his children. He admitted he used to do things to save face, but he is not there anymore. Of course he says he L me when we got M, and he realizes those are only words now. Then he said we (he) have to rediscover who each other is now, since the past is not there to draw upon from my perspective. He said he will look for ways to be vulnerable, to let me in and show me who he is.

All that sounds very good. But it will be difficult for him to do, with years of a learned pattern of CA, and a dulled conscience due to years of justifications in order to make himself look good in his own eyes, as well as to others.

One good sign is that he has internalized the concept of authenticity, and he wants to become an authentic person, mostly for himself and secondly to others.

I am cautiously hopeful. Cautious is the greater part of that last sentence.

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 11:46 AM, December 13th (Friday)]


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
HurtButHopeful?
♀ Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mindbody:
Because WSO is being so honest and truthful about faithfulness and boundaries, he can forget that lying by ommision or withholding information regarding non-A related issues are so important in rebuilding the trust too.

You said you told him about your concerns and you are now still worried his isn't being forthright. Tell him that even though this is not A related, it's his chance to prove to you that HE wants to be trustworthy in all areas of your M.

^^^^This is what I have been trying to say in these prolix posts. mindbody, I wish I could put my thoughts into words as succinctly as you.

waryopomist, you taught me a new word today: prevaricate. That was the word I was missing, and used so many words to describe. Thank you.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Topic Posts: 17

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