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User Topic: The hardest thing
movingbackwards
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Member # 40612
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought that the hardest thing would be trying to R. I thought of all the hard work and strength it would take to try to rebuild a relationship that had been destroyed, and I didn't know how I could possibly find that strength in me. I thought this, until I started questioning whether I even wanted to stay together.
I am in NO way trying to minimize the difficulty of R or the strength of people who choose this road. I am just wondering if anyone else with a religious background is finding it almost impossible to move forward with divorce/separation. I don't intend this to be a religious thread or any kind of debate about religion, but I do think my religious background is what is making it so hard for me to let myself choose D (even though I was always taught that divorce is okay in this situation, it was with the undertone of "but it's always better to try and work it out" and there always seemed to be judgement toward the BS). I guess I'm worried that I'm going to be the one made out to be the bad guy, and I feel this overwhelming guilt that I'm even leaning that way. When in reality, if he had never had the As, we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. UGH.


You can crawl back home, say you were wrong
Stand out in the yard and cry all night long
Go ahead and water the lawn
My give a damn's busted!

Posts: 85 | Registered: Sep 2013
StillLivin
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Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I felt the same way months ago. He was spouting how HE was going to leave ME when he gets back from Afghanistan. He was sending her emails telling her the same thing.
Those in the family that were all for me suffering and waiting for him to come back home, pfffft. But it did give me guilt. I went and saw a minister, an Army installation chaplain, AND a priest. All said the same thing, if he is an unrepentant adulteror, let him go. If he insists on D, let him go. They even showed me in the bible where these truths were. There is NO reason to suffer abuse of this type.
Man and woman were meant to support and uplift each other. To be there for each other through the good and the bad. People read the bad, but don't remember that good has to be in there as well.
Then I realized how fortunate I was. The last couple of years in the M, he was horribly distant, indifferent, and oftentimes outright cruel.
There is someone out there that will actually appreciate you and the fine qualities you bring to the table.


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2181 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
movingbackwards
♀ Member
Member # 40612
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think my guilt comes from the fact that he's not "unrepentant". He is remorseful and trying to make amends, but to me I think it just may be a dealbreaker. I feel like the general consensus is that if he's trying, to give him a second chance. But in my mind, I'm feeling that I don't want to be with someone I have to give a second chance. It's not like he didn't know going into marriage what was expected of him and that this wasn't okay... One chance is enough. The "unrepentant adultery" is what I'm often told and I think just adds to my feeling that this doesn't apply in my case.


You can crawl back home, say you were wrong
Stand out in the yard and cry all night long
Go ahead and water the lawn
My give a damn's busted!

Posts: 85 | Registered: Sep 2013
TrustGone
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Member # 36654
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It really doesn't matter if they are remorseful or not remorseful. The thing that matters is how you view this and if it's something you don't want to get over or can't get over. If it a deal breaker for you, then it just is. Do not feel guilty for feeling this way. He is the one that cheated and lied. Not you. He is the one that threw an atomic bomb into your marriage. This was his choice and his alone. He didn't include you in his decision to cheat. Now he doesn't get to choose if he gets the marriage back or not. Sometimes consequences are a bitch. I know this is hard, but you have to decide what YOU want. (((HUGS)))


BW-50
WH#2-51
M-9 yrs T-11 yrs
4 children-none together
DD#1-9/5/11 LTA 2yrs
DD#2-7/3/12 False R
DD#3-4/29/13 (OW broke NC)
Status: Your guess is as good as mine.

Posts: 2420 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Texas
ladies_first
♀ Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I found the book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship" by Mira Kirshenbaum an invaluable resource because it contains a series of 36 questions to help solidify a decision.

Question #4: If God or some omniscient being said it was okay to leave, would you feel tremendously relieved and have a strong sense that finally you could end your relationship?


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009
RealityStinks
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Member # 41457
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MB-
I have the same thoughts you do except my WW is unrepentant. She blame shifts the A to me because I didn't do this or that. Our relationship history has been rewritten in her mind. I can truly appreciate where you are. I think you are totally within biblical grounds to file for D. I also know that I am too, but I want to share a few thoughts that I hope you find helpful.

I am waiting (love is patient) to give her an opportunity to come out of the "fog". I honestly do not see that happening, but because of my own faith, I feel that I need to do that.

if he is an unrepentant adulteror, let him go. If he insists on D, let him go. They even showed me in the bible where these truths were.

The counselor we were seeing (he is a biblical counselor) said the exact same thing to me (replace the he/him with she/her). If she was repentant and willing to work on our marriage, I would try as well. I have made that clear to her. I have also made it clear that if she is not willing to work on us and cut the other man out of her life 100%, that she needs to file for D.

More often than not, I want to just file for D and move on. I get mad and vent to close friends and on SI. But, I made promises on the day we got married. Big promises. Just because she didn't live up to her end doesn't mean that I don't have to live up to mine (IMO). It's easy to stand up for your faith when life is going good. It's an entirely different "ballgame" when life is not going so easy.

I am forgiven, and I feel I should try to forgive others as well regardless of what they do to me. That probably sounds like what you've heard that makes you feel guilty. I am not trying to do that, and you should not feel guilty for filing for D because he cheated. That's just my take from a point-of-view that is similar to yours (I think).

I'll be thinking of you.


Posts: 414 | Registered: Nov 2013
movingbackwards
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Member # 40612
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question #4: If God or some omniscient being said it was okay to leave, would you feel tremendously relieved and have a strong sense that finally you could end your relationship?

The answer to that is a resounding YES. I have also asked myself recently, if it was just as simple as do I or don't I want to stay in the marriage and there were no other consequences to consider (obviously there are)... would I stay or go? I know I'd go. I will check out that book, thanks for the recommendation.

He didn't include you in his decision to cheat. Now he doesn't get to choose if he gets the marriage back or not. Sometimes consequences are a bitch. I know this is hard, but you have to decide what YOU want.

This is the advice I've received from my best friend and am trying to take to heart. He knew exactly what the consequences might be when he started this, and when it went on for months, and when he didn't admit to it. The ball is no longer in his court on this decision.


Realitystinks- Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it very much and do feel that we are coming from similar mindsets. I think my issue is that he is remorseful and trying, but there are some things he flat out won't do (i.e. tell his family) even though I made it clear I needed these things in order to feel secure in our marriage. I have recently given up being the one to do the work (i.e. schedule marriage counseling, etc.) and feel that if he is REALLY remorseful he should be the one to do these things as well as check in on how I'm doing with things. I am frustrated that this has not been the case and I feel like this has helped me feel I have more grounds to do this if I feel I need to.
I also do feel 100% that I need to forgive him, but lately I've been realizing forgiving doesn't necessarily mean staying together and putting myself in a situation where I don't feel confident he will stay faithful in the future.


You can crawl back home, say you were wrong
Stand out in the yard and cry all night long
Go ahead and water the lawn
My give a damn's busted!

Posts: 85 | Registered: Sep 2013
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MB.
I was raised in a religious environment where D was simply not allowed. No matter what. Period.

I remember me mother telling me that I should *choose well* when I M because *no matter what happens after that you will always be M to them.*

I should have chosen better. We all should have it seems.

Ive not been to church in decades. Yet its funny how these things stick with us. The moral values good or bad that we are raised with we carry through our life.

So how to stay in your M after a LTA?

Its hard.

A little easier I think if your WS has real remorse and at least some bit of empathy. If they work their bottom off to make amends and win you back.

But what of us who have a WS that is less than remorseful? If our WS is really only sorry for them self? If our WS is not capable of empathy? If our WS only does the minimum to keep the M?

I am living in the later case.

I still feel pain every single day over WWs LTA. Its a open wound that wont heal. But we are still M and for the most part we get along ok.

For the longest time I felt that I NEEDED WW to open up and really tell me all of the truth of her LTA. I NEEDED remorse. I NEEDED empathy. I NEEDED her her to do the work to fix herself. I was VERY VERY HEAVILY invested in what she did and felt about her LTA.

Then when I saw that was not going to happen right away I eventually moved from NEEDING to HOPING. This left me somewhat less invested in what she was doing and feeling. I stayed at HOPE for a very long time.

Then a couple of years ago I moved from HOPING to WISHING. A wish has very little emotional investment. I wish she would do those things but realize that she probably wont. These are LONG odds and so I dont invest much in the outcome.

Thats where I am now.

Basically to stay in the M with a WW that really has no true remorse I gave up giving a shit about it all. When that happened I started to branch out on my own.

You see for most of our M I defined myself as a husband. father. and provider of our family. My universe revolved around that. WW was the axis upon which that universe spun.

Now I am the axis of my universe. WW is a part of my universe but not the whole thing. I have taken other interests up which WW does not participate. I do things for ME. and I dont really worry all that much if WW approves or not.

To survive this IMO you have to shake yourself free of your old definition of self and seek a new definition. Be true to yourself first and let everything come after that.

Its a hard thing. And it took me many years to figure it out and really give up hope on something that was just not going to happen before I could get there.

[This message edited by Razor at 11:11 AM, December 13th (Friday)]


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3376 | Registered: Sep 2007
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your d-day was in July. You have reached the anger stage or close to it. You haven't gone through all the stages of grief/processing yet. I feel it takes at least a year form d-day to get your "infidelity legs" (like sea legs) imo.

I feel the book recommendation is good. Also, I would recommend you give yourself and your WH a little more time since he is remorseful.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9419 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
RealityStinks
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Member # 41457
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MB-
Based on your last comments, I don't think he is remorseful or repentant. To be either means that he has to own what he did and do whatever it is that you need him to do to help you get through it. If that means telling his family, then he should tell them. He is looking out for himself only by refusing to tell them.

It sounds a little like he wants to "rug sweep" things to a large extent. My WW is the same way. I am convinced that if I would agree to take her back and sweep everything under the rug, she would come running. In the end, that is not good for either of us. It just tells her that she can do it again and there won't be any consequences.

I know the position you find yourself in right now, and I know that it's hard. Stay strong and stand up for you right now. I know that's hard too, but if you don't, he won't. I know that's true for me right now.


Posts: 414 | Registered: Nov 2013
endlessabsurdity
Member
Member # 40249
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Religion was a big reason I fought long and hard for my marriage. My father had been a leader in our church, and the conversation I had with him was a big turning point in helping me understand that I had put up with enough in my marriage and in the situation with her affair. He started getting angry for me. It really helped me to start letting go, protect myself emotionally, and stop blaming myself.

Religious focus on marriage and forgiveness can be good, but it can also cause harm if it is misunderstood or misapplied, which it often is, especially in situations like this. People around you will not understand if they have not been through it. They have no idea how much emotional damage infidelity causes and how unimaginable the pain can be.

I did try to reconcile with my wife. I was almost desperate to reconcile at first, but my boundaries became stronger and stronger over time as the things I learned about her behavior became worse and worse. Eventually, I decided that I could no longer be a part of my own emotional abuse. I drew boundaries and stopped tolerating the unacceptable.


Posts: 80 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: United States
movingbackwards
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Member # 40612
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SM - I agree that I probably have not fully processed everything yet and am still grieving. So I see the wisdom in giving it more time. I am considering a trial separation because it is hard for me lately to live with him, and I feel I don't even know how to act around him right now.

RS - It's confusing for me because he acts remorseful in many ways, but you're right, he should be doing whatever necessary, no matter how difficult it is for him. I think in many ways he does think that being "sorry" is enough and now we can just act like it never happened, and that is never going to be the case. It's not healthy.

He told me yesterday that he feels that if I had forgiven him I wouldn't still get upset about it.... Excuse me?!???!!! That's like running over me with your car and saying that if I forgave you I would no longer be injured or insist on going to a hospital. The damage is done whether he's sorry or not, and I feel like he doesn't get that. I do honestly believe that he's trying, but it's like he doesn't understand.


You can crawl back home, say you were wrong
Stand out in the yard and cry all night long
Go ahead and water the lawn
My give a damn's busted!

Posts: 85 | Registered: Sep 2013
endlessabsurdity
Member
Member # 40249
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think my issue is that he is remorseful and trying, but there are some things he flat out won't do (i.e. tell his family) even though I made it clear I needed these things in order to feel secure in our marriage. I have recently given up being the one to do the work (i.e. schedule marriage counseling, etc.) and feel that if he is REALLY remorseful he should be the one to do these things as well as check in on how I'm doing with things. I am frustrated that this has not been the case and I feel like this has helped me feel I have more grounds to do this if I feel I need to.

That does not sound like true and deep remorse to me. I thought my WW was being honest and trying too; however, she would not proactively do what was necessary to verify no contact, she avoided IC and MC, she made it hard to discuss the affair, etc... All of these things led me to dig further. Then I had two more ddays.

You can decide you don't want R no matter what. You can also decide what is necessary for you to even consider R. Write up your list of requirements. He has to tell his family, etc... Do not compromise on your list. Decide what is necessary for you to feel safe enough to even consider engaging in a relationship with him again. That list may make the decision for you if he is simply unwilling to do what is necessary. It doesn't matter if he is willing to try but is unable to create a safe environment for you. It makes no sense to continue to expose yourself to that kind of emotional harm. It would eventually destroy you, which would not be good for you or anyone else.

I also do feel 100% that I need to forgive him, but lately I've been realizing forgiving doesn't necessarily mean staying together and putting myself in a situation where I don't feel confident he will stay faithful in the future.

Absolutely! I can forgive someone while completely cutting them out of my life because they are not safe for me. Forgiveness does not require compromise of yourself or tolerance of the unacceptable.


Posts: 80 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: United States
RealityStinks
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Member # 41457
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Endless -
Sounds like I married your WW's twin. My story is very similar to yours. Mine has not yet done anything to help me though.

she would not proactively do what was necessary to verify no contact, she avoided IC and MC, she made it hard to discuss the affair, etc... All of these things led me to dig further. Then I had two more ddays.

Completely agree with this:

You can decide you don't want R no matter what. You can also decide what is necessary for you to even consider R. Write up your list of requirements. He has to tell his family, etc... Do not compromise on your list. Decide what is necessary for you to feel safe enough to even consider engaging in a relationship with him again. That list may make the decision for you if he is simply unwilling to do what is necessary. It doesn't matter if he is willing to try but is unable to create a safe environment for you. It makes no sense to continue to expose yourself to that kind of emotional harm. It would eventually destroy you, which would not be good for you or anyone else.

I did what's quoted above. I asked my WW to move out until she was willing to do what was on my "list". I also told her she was making a mockery of our marriage. Once she moved out, it was hard not having her there every night. But, it was easier than continuing to deal with the emotional stress that interacting with her on a daily basis caused.

Last night was the second time in three weeks that I talked with her. It was more of the same: I shouldn't have done this or that for the past 8 years, why haven't I called to check on her, why have I told people about her A, how could I be so mean, etc. What really helped me a TON in dealing with that was having read all the stories on SI. I no longer get my hopes up when we meet, and I go in to our meeting with a good idea of what's going to be said. Plus, I have learned to LISTEN more than I talk. I do not allow her to put me on the defensive in order to relieve her own guilt. It really stinks sitting there and wanting to grab her hand and beg her to come home knowing that if I do that, things will not get better for either one of us. I just made my "list" very clear again, and told her that I was not willing to R until she did those things (kick him out of her life, repent to God, me, and our family, and go to MC).


Posts: 414 | Registered: Nov 2013
movingbackwards
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Member # 40612
Default  Posted: 12:44 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RS - good for you! I think a mistake I made is that we have had zero time of separation since d-day. I think it would be very good for me to at least see what life without him would be like, even if just for a short period.
I didn't have anyone to turn to for comfort after d-day since at that time I had told no one, so I unfortunately turned to WH and allowed him to comfort me because I was just so upset. I'm thinking some distance (physical and emotional) might be helpful for healing, even if we do eventually R.


You can crawl back home, say you were wrong
Stand out in the yard and cry all night long
Go ahead and water the lawn
My give a damn's busted!

Posts: 85 | Registered: Sep 2013
RealityStinks
♂ Member
Member # 41457
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MB -
WW told me that she met with the pastor that married us over Thanksgiving and told him the "whole" story (I know she didn't tell him everything, but that's beside the point). I've known this man for 10 years, and I highly respect him and his opinions. He told my WW that a separation might be a good idea for us (that's what she told me, truth or not, I agree). It turns out that being apart has provided some clarity on the situation for both of us, IMO.

As adamant as my WW was about wanting a D a few weeks ago, her tune is changing now that I'm (her comfort zone) not around all the time (I've also 180ed pretty well too). It's also showing me that life goes on without her (something I was struggling with). I'm sure you've heard "absence makes the heart grow fonder". In her case, I think she is finally realizing (at least a little) what she's giving up. In my case, her absence is making me grow founder of myself.


Posts: 414 | Registered: Nov 2013
sisoon
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Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MB,

Scripture - Old and New Testaments - says adultery is cause for D. (In some cases, Jewish law requires D when a partner committed adultery.)

So in a very real sense, God does give you permission to D.

Is the real obstacle your concern about what others will think? I understand that, and I think it's important to consider that sort of fallout.

But consider your options: 1) D, and possible condemnation by people whose good opinions you want; or 2) continued life with an unremorseful WS.

BTW, given what you report about him, IMO he's very likely to cheat again unless he changes, and he won't change unless he's remorseful.

More important, you say your gut tells you to D no matter what your H does.

Consider your options. Get the book. If you still can't be comfortable in your choice after doing those things, post for feedback again.

Hint: Don't choose what you think others want you to choose, unless that's what you really want, especially at your age - if you stifle yourself, you'll regret it for a long, long time.


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
endlessabsurdity
Member
Member # 40249
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It was more of the same: I shouldn't have done this or that for the past 8 years, why haven't I called to check on her, why have I told people about her A, how could I be so mean, etc.

When I asked my WW to leave, I made something very clear to her. Her affair and her continuing to see the OM had been the most emotionally traumatic experience of my life. I could no longer have her in my life knowing that she was still with the OM. It was too painful. I asked her to minimize all contact with me except for what was necessary for the children and finances. I did not do it to punish her or be mean. I had to protect myself, otherwise I would eventually break down and fall apart, and I would be no good to anyone.

While she may not understand, everything I had done was out of love and a desire to protect our family. When she chose the OM over her family, I could no longer consider her needs when protecting the family. I had to protect myself and my kids. The truth is that setting and maintaining your boundaries can be the most kind and loving thing you can do for either of you.

I no longer get my hopes up when we meet

You are at a different stage than I am, but I have had to accept some things about my WW. She is completely untrustworthy. She does not understand the damage she has caused and continues to cause to me or her children. She is not capable of providing me with any emotional depth or satisfaction in our communication with each other. I repeat these to myself often. I am starting absorb them and achieve the emotional detachment I know I need. If my WW ever comes to her senses and we can have a more reasonable relationship in the future, fine, but I don't expect or anticipate that. I expect and anticipate the opposite. Until she ends her relationship with the OM and expresses true remorse through her words and actions, she is not safe.


Posts: 80 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: United States
movingbackwards
♀ Member
Member # 40612
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, December 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hint: Don't choose what you think others want you to choose, unless that's what you really want, especially at your age - if you stifle yourself, you'll regret it for a long, long time.

You're absolutely right. I think I'm definitely afraid of judgement and condemnation by other people, but in the end it's my life and I have to make decisions based on what's best for me. I also struggle with worrying about what will happen to him if we D, because i still care about him very much and honestly would want him to be happy again. But I have had to try to accept that I won't be the one responsible for whatever consequences happen to him if we D. He made the choices that he made knowing full well what the consequences might be, and again, I'm trying to learn that I can't make my life decisions based on what's good for somebody else.


You can crawl back home, say you were wrong
Stand out in the yard and cry all night long
Go ahead and water the lawn
My give a damn's busted!

Posts: 85 | Registered: Sep 2013
Topic Posts: 19

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