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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: WS read Marriage Builders, "you don't need to deal w/ the proble
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:04 PM, December 16th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sisoon... Spot on. My wife has to be open to accepting love. During her A she was open to every ounce her AP offered her, and actually believed she thought she was getting more than she actually was. Meanwhile, back in her M to me she was shut down... Actually viewed me as the threat to filling her love tank.

There is a relationship here though..... I must learn to speak her love language and she must be open to listening as I. "Talk".

Her AP was simply looking to fuck her.....he is on to another woman now .... And my wife was not his first A. So not sure he was open to recieving or giving love.

Curious.....seems lake a lack of "something" leads a person to adultery....something internal. Maybe lack of nurturing as a child, conditional loving, something.....

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:01 PM, December 16th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess I need to read all of what Dr. Harley says on infidelity, have to admit I did not because I was stunned that he said you can't resolve all the old stuff so need to focus on the present.
I might add that WS has really made strides in acting better, but he can't or won't *go there* in discussion because he read that when someone brings up the past they are being abusive. He said he is going to remind me that he isn't doing those things now and that he doesn't have to be abused for mistakes that are in the past. He has told me I am the one who is keeping us from enjoying a very good marriage now. He said he did those things earlier because he was immature, selfish and unprepared but now I am making a deliberate educated choice to live in the past, holding onto it because it is more comfortable to be angry than try to see how much better he is. Is it just me? Am I really just needing to get back at him, is that what motivates me to want to know more than a "cliff notes" of his choices? He is a pro at just letting a tiny bit of what went on out when we talk, and it seems to take a long time before he finally gives up another bit. IMO there has only been 1 piece of the puzzle ever offered by him and that was because I was going to contact OW #2 and he knew she would tell me immediately. Everything is first minimized and justified by how he thought I was mistreating him


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
Kelany
♀ Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I began my R journey with reading Surviving An Affair.

One thing I will say, Harley knows how to blow up and expose an affair. Hands down.

Otherwise? Having read countless other books now, being in therapy for so long, on SI, researching etc.?

I will NEVER EVER EVER promote, recommend or otherwise Dr. Harley. He advocates rug sweeping and sometimes blame shifting. I understand the concept of the love bank, but there are flaws with it. His forums are filled with militants. I remember a story of a couple who literally bargain over fruit in the grocery store and never spend one moment away from each other outside of work.

No, Harley is a dangerous man to marriage.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he read that when someone brings up the past they are being abusive. He said he is going to remind me that he isn't doing those things now and that he doesn't have to be abused for mistakes that are in the past. He has told me I am the one who is keeping us from enjoying a very good marriage now. He said he did those things earlier because he was immature, selfish and unprepared but now I am making a deliberate educated choice to live in the past, holding onto it because it is more comfortable to be angry than try to see how much better he is.

He doesn't get to say that until he has spent the years of effort it takes to resolve this shit.

If there's any abuse going on here, it's him by stomping on your side of the relationship.

He doesn't get to tell you how to heal or how you should feel. You get to be angry at what he did and you get to be angry at the shitty way he is handling things. Because you get to be a person who has just as much say in this as he does.

He is making an educated, deliberate choice to twist the knife by refusing to support the person he hurt. He is making you feel crazy, doubt yourself and question your motives - when he is the one who did all the damage to begin with.


eta:

I will even go so far as to say not only are you not in R due to the way he is treating you but I wouldn't be surprised if he is still in contact with someone. He is making a lot of effort to shut this all down hard and keep the focus on how it's your fault. Do you have access to his email and phone?

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:51 AM, December 17th (Tuesday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7439 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The formula of jumping straight to meeting the typical needs of a husband and wife as though no adultery had occurred would not work for me. That's what my wife was willing to give and that's why we are heading toward D rather than R. (Actually, ithe affair may have been a dealbreaker regardless but we will never know).

Obviously this approach ignore the fact that the BS has needs unique to someone who has been betrayed,

Perhaps more importantly, it ignores the fact that the WS has needs that are not being addressed, The WS needs to figure what the hell went wrong with his/her mind/heart/soul so that it can be addressed.

Reconciliation is a long painful process and it's simply not worth it IMO if the WS does nothing to address the issues,

Another thing is that if reconciliation is evaluated by the BS's acting like a newlywed then it seems destined to fail.

After one of our first incidents of HB my wife actually complained that I had not told her that I loved her during post discovery sex.

Seriously? I was working just to push aside mind movies. I was trying to figure out why the hell I was even in the same bed with her. And she had the nerve to complain that I had not told her I loved her?

Totally unrealistic.


Posts: 385 | Registered: May 2013
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do think ideas from MB, such as meeting needs and enthusiasitic agreement, are good ones that every M can benefit from. Think about how your life would have been different if your spouse came to you and said "I met this man, am thinking about fucking him, do you enthusiasically agree with this choice?"

Love it, thanks for the laugh!

I have read two of his books, and wish I had read them pre-affair; I think it may have saved us. I think some of his ideas are fundamentally sound. But, I don't agree with the rug-sweeping, or the idea that our "needs" can be an excuse in any way. Our MC is clear that we are responsible to meet our own needs, and can only do that for each other to a certain degree. Certainly no true sense of self worth can be gained from another.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1927 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
foolishlycluless
♀ Member
Member # 41404
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Several posters have mentioned this book: How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair

which I agree can be very helpful and would recommend. I think it helped my WH understand what I was going through, better than I could explain.


BW 55
WH 59
M 30 yrs, together 33 yrs, no children.
D-Day #1: 9/23/2013, EA 15+ months, PA with 34 YO business assoc
D-Day #2: 11/27/2013, OW, EA for 2-3 yrs (2005-2007), PA
D-Day #3: 6/6/2014, found the sex video
Status: Putting on my bitch bo

Posts: 110 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Washington DC
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mind movies... They are so scary and so realistic, it makes me crazy. Why do they only happen sometimes? How can you stop the reaction to them? This might be TMI but I'm going to take a chance- my S leaned over to kiss me ,all I could see was that maneuver with her as the affair physically started w "kissing and moved to petting" my heart was pounding and I started feeling kind of sick. I had to turn my face away. It's like seeing his lips set me off. This can't go on ! You can't be married and have this happen unpredictably. I didn't say anything to my S, he doesn't understand triggers and has said they are BS. How long can I avoid doing that. I do better if I send my mind off somewhere else. Is that normal? Sometimes I think it is starting to make me crazy, even I feel like I should be doing much better by now


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
DixieD
♀ Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think one of the first sites I found was MB. I didn't go into the forums. I thought it was good information because I was in shock and already blaming myself. If my husband had an affair, it must be my fault. That's the only thing that made sense to me. I must have drove him to it. Obviously I didn't fill his love-bank. Somehow I have to fix this.

My husband was regretful and wanted everything to be smoothed over nice and easy. I felt like a Stepford wife for a bit, walking on eggshells and being grateful (yeah, grateful ), and he was love-bombing me. It all felt so strange. Hey, wait a minute, my love-bank had been empty for a long time but but I didn't cheat, even though I had time, opportunity and motive.

Then I found SI. THANK GOD......and I started to get angry. FTN It was all him, including the majority of the pre-affair issues in the marriage. He's changed a lot and things are infinitely better now.....hmmm, isn't that a coincidence.

Harley also says that WS and AP's are always at risk of the affair starting up again if they see each other. A risk of him running AP over with his car maybe, but that was about it. So he was off there too.

I agree, the information has merit when trying to build a marriage or it's hit the disillusionment stage, but not it the beginning of rebuilding after an affair.


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
sudra
♀ Member
Member # 30143
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the focus is on meeting needs and enthusiastic agreement.

Okay. And your need is to discuss and work through his affair and have him answer your questions and support you. Is he "enthusiastically" doing this?


Me (BW) (55), Him(SAWH) (58)
Married 22 years, 1 son (19), 1 stepdaughter (27)
DDay #1 January 2004
DDay #2 7-27-2010 7 month EA/PA (became "engaged" to OW before he told me he wanted a divorce)
Working on R

Posts: 1462 | Registered: Nov 2010
Blobette
♀ Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Try to get him to read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/great-betrayals.html?ref=opinion I think this is required reading for any WS. I don't need to repeat what everyone else is saying: your WH isn't truly remorseful if he isn't listening to what you say you need. It's about you, not him, and he doesn't get that.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1057 | Registered: Aug 2012
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will say, when I exposed I took a play out of the Harley handbook and people didn't know what hit them. No regrets. But, we kind of advocate the same type of exposure here.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4881 | Registered: Dec 2010
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blobete, I realize he doesn't get it, he has told me to quit making a big deal of the past and appreciate how he has changed. He said after the second affair I NEVER had another one. He did cross boundaries with a young co-worker and has had a problem w porn. He explained that I should be seeing that he didn't do anything as bad as having affairs anymore. See how I changed?
I think a part of the issue is that we look like a great marriage on the outside. NOBODY is allowed to know. When I found the part that Harley wrote about exposure suddenly Harley had some flaws.
So Rachel are you saying you outed him? Mine said - if you do that you can just leave because that will just show how evil you are, you will look crazy. He also said that when I wanted to ask why his co workers were trying to tell me he was playing around at work with the young co worker. He said they were just trying to stir up crap and that he is with them everyday and they do this to everyone and then talk about them. He said now he has to act unfriendly w everyone and has to rush out of work so I won't be suspicious.
I will look up the article, thank you


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So Rachel are you saying you outed him? Mine said - if you do that you can just leave because that will just show how evil you are,

I outed the OW to her employer and family and had they been co-workers I would have outed to the employer. I also didn't inform him I was going to do this.

He's manipulating you. Dont' fall for it. Decide what you can live with, do it, and let the chips fall where they may. If he still works with her NC must be established, a NC letter written and her spouse/BF informed. The reason you do this is so the affair stops, it's not some sort of evil revenge, it's extra eyes watching. Affairs are notorious for going underground. I'm guessing your husband's is.

I would not stay in a relationship where my husband worked with his AP. As it stands now they work 100 yards apart and I feel I'm much too generous with this even.

Good luck.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4881 | Registered: Dec 2010
Rebreather
♀ Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OMG! If you want to point out his cherry picking and lack of understanding, go to the MB forums and read what they say about exposure. I also think they have the best badass approach there. He will crap himself.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6417 | Registered: Jan 2011
Gman1
♂ Member
Member # 40879
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a BS, I read his book and found it very useful and used his exposure idea which worked to perfection within hours of me doing so. I am also sure that he does not advocate forgetting the past. Much of what I have read on this thread is not accurate or only partially true regarding his book. My WW also read the book and she thought it was very good as well. Just like anything else, not every single concept will work for every situation but he definitely does have some extremely useful information in his affair book. The OP's husband cherry picked a tiny fraction of what is in the book and twisted it around to fit him. The author is extremely supportive of the WS and much of what has been written here is simply false.

Posts: 216 | Registered: Oct 2013
heforgotme
♀ Member
Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FWH and I use marriage builders. It is great for building marriages.

It is not great for dealing with infidelity.

They want to save the marriage so badly, that they lose sight of what it takes to get through infidelity. We both feel like they baby the WS.

This is not the best resource for infidelity recovery. Save it for later. They have some great ideas, but only for after you have dealt with all this.

good luck.


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1080 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
Blobette
♀ Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, boy.
NOBODY is allowed to know
Who's setting the conditions here? Who's threatening you that if you DO expose, you'll look crazy? My FWH also HATED the idea that anyone would know what a shit he was. (Everyone thinks of him as the sweetest, kindest guy.) Sorry, fellow, you gotta live with the truth.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1057 | Registered: Aug 2012
JustWow
♀ Member
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 5:44 PM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the MB stuff is a little misguided when it comes to a post-A M.

I don't trust the person who held up my love bank and robbed it, then drove a truck through it, to come waltzing up to the window and make a deposit. Trust needs to be rebuilt and that really gets lost, IMO.

Same with the agreement stuff. See, we theoretically already agreed to love, honor, be faithful, etc.. Didn't work so well, so, again, trust is a problem.

Rugsweeping doesn't work because it tells the offended party to suck it up and trust when all evidence tells them rationally to not do so. I wasn't really much into adding my name to the list of people who betrayed me, so I kinda stuck with being true to myself and my need to rebuild trust.
All the rest tends to be icing on a rotten cake if you don't address the core problems.

[This message edited by JustWow at 5:45 PM, December 17th (Tuesday)]


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3616 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
Oldernotwiser
♀ Member
Member # 36408
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Need to clarify, the co worker moved on, but not while we were still slugging it out about her, She continued to email for over a year. Made sure she remembered his bday, kept him up on her life, made sure he knew she was not with anyone else etc. I did my best to explain why it was upsetting, what I needed, ( love bank stuff without knowing ).
He has a real fear about exposure. He is terrified of it. Our Priest does know, I did not intentionally tell him, he approached me at Church as I was alone and crying in a pew. I tried to act like I was fine but absolutely fell apart, I am sure most of what I said was unintelligible as I was crying so hard, he got the gist of it and tried to offer some advice. I admitted to WH that I had talked to the priest, H didn't talk to me for a week he was mad. Now has said, I guess you needed to confide in someone what you have been through. He said I don't like that you did it but I am not mad anymore about it. I think it is because after a few weeks and the Priest didn't do anything with the info he relaxed about his fear. Thank you to everyone on SI because I was really feeling crazy till I was able to "talk" to somebody.


Me BS 54
WH 55
Married 34 years
2 grown sons
2 PA ? EA's didn't develop due to discovery

Posts: 85 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: midwest USA
Topic Posts: 40
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