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User Topic: Communication
lemony.2008
♀ Member
Member # 20125
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, December 21st (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question to all of you sage SIers:

Why is it that I, as a BS, have to spell out everything that I want from my WH because he is no mind reader, yet he has no problem figuring out what his OWS want/need??

What has been your experience? Does he or she suddenly "lose" their ability to read minds because you're not their affair partners?

Thanks in advance!


Feel the feelings and drop the story. - Pema Chodron


Posts: 2243 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
SummerStorm21
♀ Member
Member # 41320
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, December 21st (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Very very good point. And the realization that finally pushed me over the edge.

They CAN communicate lovingly and empatheticly. They just choose not to.

We have higher expectations. They take the easy route and don't talk at all which makes things worse.

They have to communicate with us about real life. - money, kids, jobs, lawn mowing, Not so fun and takes them away from the fantasy that life can and should be all rainbows and butterflies.

So they begin to associate us with 'hard' and check out. Reality is we are simply mature adults to their Peter Pan.

[This message edited by SummerStorm21 at 10:55 AM, December 21st (Saturday)]


BW

Posts: 112 | Registered: Nov 2013
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, December 21st (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I doubt that he could read ow's mind. The A is a fantasy, and my bet is they didn't meet each other's needs. ap1 tells himself ap2 meets ap1's needs. ap2 tells himself that ap1 is meeting ap2's needs. In reality, both ap1 & ap2 are in never-never land. JMO.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:53 PM, December 21st (Saturday)]


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
lemony.2008
♀ Member
Member # 20125
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, December 21st (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was triggering yesterday because WH was demonstrating "affair behavior". He was blameshifting me, trying to make it my problem because I was not supportive of what he wanted to do. (it was not A related, just an unwise thing to do in general) I was angry because I recognized it, and furious that he is still trying to make me feel like I'm crazy, which I didn't. I just felt pure anger. And the all the A related stuff flooded back...sigh...I was doing so well detaching.

Thanks SummerStorm21, for sure they like everything easy, including their APs.

Sisoon, thanks for your insight. I just p*ssed me off that one minute, WH is this dumb, clueless person who doesn't know what to do, say, etc... to his BS and he's Casanova to the APs. He was very thoughtful, sensitive, detail-oriented, strategic, articulate, etc... with the APs. Same person. Huh. And all the MCs chalked it up to "communication" problems. Yeah. Sure. They met each others' needs on a very superficial level, the ego-stroking, validation, etc.

Back to detaching, focusing on my happiness and my little sweet baby girl. That's what matters, me and my little girl.


Feel the feelings and drop the story. - Pema Chodron


Posts: 2243 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
heforgotme
♀ Member
Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 1:44 AM, December 22nd (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Reality is we are simply mature adults to their Peter Pan.

SUCH a good point. FWH found it a big drag to be a responsible adult pre-Dday and as such, usually wasn't. It made him very difficult to live with (think adult child living in your basement playing computer games all night and sleeping all day) and led to the Lala land thinking that made the A possible.

There is now another real grown up in my house, thank heaven!


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1065 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, December 22nd (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He was very thoughtful, sensitive, detail-oriented, strategic, articulate, etc... with the APs.

I know the following is easier said than done.

If you know this to be a fact, could you make it a requirement of R? I know one of my reqs was for my W 'to treat me better than she treated ow', like arranging dates. (It turns out she's better at it than I am, so she still does it. )

If your H demurs, point out that he did it with ow, so he definitely can do it. If he can't do it for you, it's probably an issue for MC and/or IC....


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
lemony.2008
♀ Member
Member # 20125
Default  Posted: 11:51 PM, December 22nd (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is now another real grown up in my house, thank heaven!

That's great, heforgotme!

Thanks, sisoon, for the suggestion. I don't want to make him do anything. He is an adult, and in this affairs, he has proven to have the capability to be a considerate human being. If he chooses not to be the same with his wife, which is the case, that is his choice. I don't believe in making people do anything because it doesn't work. They have to be self-motivated, kwim? I'm not expecting a mind reader, it's more like consideration. He doesn't even have the motivation to ask what I'd like to do, for example. He is a totally different person with APs and myself. He was acting like an alpha male with the APs and with me, he is clueless and helpless.

Sigh.


Feel the feelings and drop the story. - Pema Chodron


Posts: 2243 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Scientist
♂ New Member
Member # 40910
Default  Posted: 5:46 AM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In fairness to my WW (should that be former WW?), she has not needed a list of everything I want/need. She has done pretty well in providing it unasked, including a written timeline.

But I don't think the wandering SO knows what the affair partner wants in some profound or special way. The AP is typically a broken low-life, for whom anything will do, including gross sex in carparks or down-market hotels, creeping around under cover, and not experiencing a full relationship. I do not know if it is the illicit excitement of the affair or the emotional retardedness of the AP that does it, but something means that they do not need a full empathetic relationship with the wandering one.

Which means that a wandering H or W who does not know what you need probably did not know what the AP needed either. It just didn't matter so much in the affair.


Me: 58
WW: 58
M: 36 years
Together 39 years
4 children, 1 grandchild
dday(1) July 2005; dday(2) September 2013

Posts: 46 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: UK
Thinkingtoomuch
♀ Member
Member # 31765
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Scientist, so aptly put:

The AP is typically a broken low-life, for whom anything will do, including gross sex in carparks or down-market hotels, creeping around under cover, and not experiencing a full relationship. I do not know if it is the illicit excitement of the affair or the emotional retardedness of the AP that does it, but something means that they do not need a full empathetic relationship with the wandering one

"gross sex in carparks" and "creeping around under cover" and "emotional retardedness of the AP" made me laugh.

These types of thoughts have helped me put and keep things in perspective my whole almost 3 yrs. since DD. Of course, you'd never have known it my first year. (I was a mess and a very sad sick "puppy" then).

[This message edited by Thinkingtoomuch at 8:49 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]


Posts: 752 | Registered: Apr 2011
overandone
Member
Member # 39162
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It seems to me that there was actually no need for fWH to be a mind-reader to the OW. After all, they didn't live together and conversations were on a very superficial level, on the here and now. He didn't have to consider her feelings anytime, they were together for one reason only (sex) as far as he was concerned. She declared she loved him early on in the LTA, he told her he didn't reciprocate those feelings, and for her to look elsewhere if that's what she wanted.

I don't think he was any good at all at reading her mind. When I thought we were should divorce, before discovering the A, so basically giving him his freedom, she thought they could move in together. Was firmly told 'no' by my H. He was surprised she asked, he thought he'd made it plain to her how he felt - friends with benefits and no more - no mind reading there.

So don't assume, just because your H can't read your mind that he did this with AP. That relationship is in no way the same as a relationship with someone you live with.

It's something our MC concentrated on, the most useful thing he could have done. We both realised how bad our communication skills were and how that had to change before we could move forwards. Most people aren't mind - readers. My H is particularly bad at it, and if I don't think he's 'getting it' I spell it out to him. Sometimes frustrating and I wish he was a little more savvy, but he's not, so I deal with it best I can.


Me - BW (54)
Him - fWS (61)
kiddies - daughters 22 and 27,son 22,
d-day - April 18 2012
R - but lots of bumps in the long road

Posts: 206 | Registered: May 2013 | From: uk
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ugh, this made me think about how OW would tell WH that he was "unlike other guys", "a good guy", "not an asshole", and he would go on about how he could understand her and he was a "statistic" (whatever that meant).

The thing that really boggles my mind is Wh has been in my shoes. He was constantly worried I would do the things he did to me yet didn't realize at the time how inappropriate and wrong it was. WTF? Does that make any sense??? Am I the only one who hears that and thinks so you didn't want me doing it...you were terrified enough that you would constantly ask if I was doing it yet you had no idea it would hurt me if you did the same? And you didn't even realize it was the same?


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Clarifying - in making courting me a requirement for R, Wy W had a totally free choice to accept the requirement or not. It's just that if she rejected it, I'd probably have split.

I'm assuming you've talked with your H about this. What does he say to explain why he doesn't step up in these areas?

(In going at this intellectually, I don't mean to ignore the awful feelings that come with being treated badly - like furniture? - and taken for granted by one's spouse.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:10 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
lemony.2008
♀ Member
Member # 20125
Default  Posted: 1:36 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for all your replies!
Yes, I agree the communication between WH and APs are fairly superficial and inconsequential, in a way. They did not care about each other very much and used each other for ego boosting.

What bothers me still, after all these years, is that he planned everything with them. He took the initiative to make it happen. However, with me, he acts like he's completely lost and clueless. No initiative, no assertiveness, just completely passive and waiting for me to tell him what to do. He's helpful around the house with the chores and the baby. But that's it.

What does he say to explain why he doesn't step up in these areas?

His reason is he doesn't know what to do. But I believe a huge element of it is that he really doesn't believe what he has done is a big deal. He actually started a thread on SI asking that very question. Here is the link: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=492020&HL=20338

I was triggered recently by him, otherwise I've been detached and coping pretty well. sigh.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and suggestions, they're deeply appreciated!


Feel the feelings and drop the story. - Pema Chodron


Posts: 2243 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read that thread. One issue is that your H was focused on what you've done, which he can't control, instead on his own thoughts, feelings, and actions, which he can. Not to mention that he seems to think being screwed up is an excuse rather than an opportunity to improve his life....

I wonder if some MC would be useful for you now. It sounds like the 2 of you are not communicating effectively, and an outsider could change that dynamic.

It's one thing for him to tell you he can't figure out how to woo you. It's quite another to say that to an objective observer. And even if he does, the observer can then get him to deal with your point that he knew how to court his aps.


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9773 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
lemony.2008
♀ Member
Member # 20125
Default  Posted: 10:10 PM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for your reply sisoon. Yes, this is the pattern. He does not self-reflect and blames me for my anger. He is still at the "I don't know how to deal with your anger" stage, after all these years. And then he'd go to the victim stage and feel sorry for himself.

I cannot live like this anymore. He needs to put a tremendous amount of work into this marriage right now if he's honest about not wanting a divorce.


Feel the feelings and drop the story. - Pema Chodron


Posts: 2243 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Topic Posts: 15

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