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User Topic: A vent.
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Angry  Posted: 4:00 PM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know why but I am angry today. So very angry. I have spent most of the day again thinking about whether or not this was a dealbreaker. I have researched numerous times how to stop obsessing over details and how to recover from "infidelity". Infidelity is in quotes because I feel uncomfortable calling it that due to WH's countless protests that it was nothing and there were no emotions nor did anything physical happen. "I have never emotionally or physically cheated on you." Okay, may be true and if this was an isolated event perhaps I would have no issue getting over it. The thing I've realized is it's not so much the one incident that even bothers me so much. It's the countless other "wayward behaviors" and now being in this state of constant pondering and wanting the truth. Maybe I have the truth and deep down that is enough for me but I feel obligated to stay because he never really "cheated" on me. But what if it's enough for me?

What if being accused of cheating hundreds of times throughout a relationship is enough?
Add the fact he was still hung up on some other girl early on in our relationship and has searched her as recent as August of this year. Add that he met with her TWICE and sent suggestive texts to her.
Add that he added 400+ women on his facebook page, many half-naked, poked and followed them.
Add that he attempted to be a KISA to at least 3 women that I know of.
Add that he would look at porn (AT WORK) for hours each day and it was always crap like "older women, milfs, and BBW) Things I am NOT!
Add that he e-mailed and messaged OW for 3 months and never once told her she was being inappropriate or to back off. He gleefully participated in the flirting and sexual innuendos.
Add that even after I confronted him for calling a coworker gorgeous and another hot just a week later he engaged in cybersex with OW.
Add that he lied when I confronted him about that and minimized it to being "harmless flirting."
Add that I had to ask him several times to STOP TALKING TO HER after Dday.
Add that he felt it was appropriate to send her pics of our newborn son.
Add that he still accuses me of cheating, tells me I need to move on and stop obsessing, won't tell me an ounce of anything else because "there's nothing more"

But now he gets it. Now he understands he has FOO issues and he is working on himself so I should be fully committed to making our marriage work. I should just take his word for it....he was simply being selfish and stupid in the past but now he gets it. Oh but he still claims he's always been "loyal and faithful".

I'm over it. I don't know why I am wasting my time. I don't think I can ever trust him again and without trust you have nothing. I'm convinced he has issues that will take years to fix and honestly I don't feel very supportive in that regard. I don't want to wait for someone to fix themselves. I wanted someone to be okay, or as close to it as possible, from the get go. I know I am not perfect and I have faults but is it really too much to ask for your spouse to not engage in such OBVIOUSLY inappropriate behavior and is it understandable that you don't want to sit around and wait for them to get it?


Sorry for the rant. I had to say it. I am still unsure of what I really want to do but that's how I feel right now. I feel like saying screw this mess, I'm out.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((cl)))))

You have every right to be angry pissed off, and sad. It's ok. It's up to you and you alone if you want to try R an if you do great and if you don't and choose to D thats great too. My piint is its your decision and whatever you decide is fine.

You will survive this. You will be stronger, smarter, and better. You decide your destiny.

((( and strength )))(


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8594 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
MakingLemonade
♀ Member
Member # 41143
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How difficult to make this decision if your not sure if he only places his toe over the line or completely crosses it. Even in the best case scenario, that's a lot of pushing boundaries. Just want you to know I hear your frustration.


Me: 40's; XBS Him: 40's; XWS/NPD/SA
D-day 1: 5/2007- A #1; 7/2007 A #1 continued-R
D-day 2: 3/2013 A #2/multi-ONSs; 4/2013 A #2 continues to present
D: 7/2013 (25 yrs together; days shy of 22nd anniversary-GOAL MET!)
Our kids: teen & tween

Posts: 168 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Southern US
headdesk
♀ Member
Member # 40787
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, December 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm trying to figure out where he gets off saying that he didn't have an EA. The only way I got my WH to admit that (before the PA was revealed) was to ask the good old 'what if that was me and another guy doing the same thing, would you feel betrayed' song and dance. At least my WH was honest enough to admit that it totally would.


Me: 39
WH: 42
DDay:Sep 19 2013 (only TT of EA)
Oct 4th 2013 revealed PA through snooping.
Marred 16 years, together for 20. Looking to R at this time. We have awesome kids (12/14).

Posts: 273 | Registered: Sep 2013
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 6:38 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm trying to figure out where he gets off saying that he didn't have an EA

I know, that's the frustrating part. I've done the reverse dialogue as well. He will agree in that instance that even in the beginning of their "relationship" he would have been pissed and felt betrayed. I guess in his mind since there were no emotions on HIS part (it was obvious there was on her part) and they weren't physical it wasn't an "A" just inappropriate. Just last night that's what he told me.

I often wonder if he lacks empathy. Even when I was doing reverse dialogue, "What if I did this, how would you feel?" he threw it back in my face and said, "You sure have been saying what if did things a lot....do you have something to tell me?" AHHHHHHH!!! I tried explaining it was obvious he didn't get how I felt by me expressing myself so I was trying the route of placing him in my shoes. At least he has admitted he does have a double standard.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 6:46 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How difficult to make this decision if your not sure if he only places his toe over the line or completely crosses it. Even in the best case scenario, that's a lot of pushing boundaries.

That's it! You put that beautiful and that's exactly how I am feeling. It's very frustrating! As I read this I thought of my 18 month and when we have the door leading to the garage open. He will run over to the threshold and linger with a huge grin on his face. Sometimes he will throw out his foot as if he is going in. If I say "Noooooo" he will even giggle but he never crosses the line UNLESS I turn my back even for a second. Then he is off and attempts to get into whatever he can until I catch him and bring him back in, which is always within a few seconds. He usually already has his eye on something, he is just waiting for my back to turn. So, if WH did all of this pretty much IN MY FACE, testing boundaries by standing at the threshold, then what did he get into when my back was turned?


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If your experience follows along any of the other people here then he's still hiding something and gaslighting you.

Even if he isn't, he's acting like an anthropomorphized whale asshole with paddle hands sailing along the fuckface creek in his own personal douche canoe. You don't have to sail with him.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7451 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Even if he isn't, he's acting like an anthropomorphized whale asshole with paddle hands sailing along the fuckface creek in his own personal douche canoe. You don't have to sail with him.

I literally laughed out loud as I read this. Thank you!

If your experience follows along any of the other people here then he's still hiding something and gaslighting you.

Yes, I believe that. I think hearing such similar stories is what throws me into "need to know" mode further. I do feel deep down there is more. I've always said, what are the chances I caught him doing the only "inappropriate" things he has ever done? Am I really that good? On D-day I had validation my gut was right, so I now wonder if my gut was right the other times as well.

He's offered no new knowledge, well lil tidbits here and there. Like OW told him he was goodlooking, would bat her eyelashes at him, and hang out in his office from time to time. He also admitted he met another women (technically first OW) at Target one day and she kissed him on the cheek. I think he got his timeline mixed up because he presented it as "before we got together" but then said it was after his route change which was a month or two AFTER we got serious. It doesn't really matter other than I feel duped thinking he was as into me as I was into him back then. I feel like even in the beginning of our relationship he was searching for more or at the very least keeping his options open.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have every right to be angry and you aren't going to get over this until you either leave him or he becomes remorseful, which he is not at this point.

Cheating starts in the mind. It is the betrayal and the secrecy that devastates...

Your partner is minimizing. He is not being 100% truthful with you.

I should just take his word for it....he was simply being selfish and stupid in the past but now he gets it.
Why would you believe him based on his past behavior? All of a sudden he gets it? He is trying to manipulate you. This is why you are angry. Because he really doesn't get it....and he isn't even really trying. Rebuilding trust takes a LONG LONG time and it is done by behaviors, not words. It is shown through actions. It is shown through your partner really understanding the devastation that he caused. Your partner isn't showing those actions. Is he in counseling? Is he having break-throughs? Is he being 100% honest and answering all your questions truthfully and calmly without being defensive? Is he digging deeper and deeper to figure out what it was inside him that made him seek out all this extramarital female attention? Does he understand he betrayed your trust and your emotions? Has he broken down and cried and blurted out in a sobbing twisted heap...."I am so sorry for what I did to you, you trusted me and I totally betrayed you?" Is he changing his behaviors? Is he being completely transparent?

If not, he isn't remorseful.


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 15241 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, December 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is he in counseling?

He is in IC but due to finances it is through a school of Psychology. His therapist is a student. I haven't seen much improvement from it.

Is he having break-throughs?

I'm really not sure. He will "realize" certain things in one conversation and then in the next it seems like we are back at square one.

Is he being 100% honest and answering all your questions truthfully and calmly without being defensive?

Yes and no. He will act willing to answer all my questions. He even wrote out a timeline when I asked but then he goes into this cycle of self-pity because I do not trust him. At times he will get defensive and even angry because we have gone over it before. He also does a lot of interrupting and talking around questions. I will ask him a simple question like, "Did you do anything while in Ft. Worth?" and he will say, "No, I put that on the kids. You can trust me babe. Never would I want to hurt you like that. I have always been faithful and loyal to you, I promise you babe. I know what I did was wrong and I hurt you but that is all, there is no more." So he will answer but then go on a long tangent of how "faithful" he is.

Is he digging deeper and deeper to figure out what it was inside him that made him seek out all this extramarital female attention?

Kinda sorta. I made the suggestion it could be because his mother abandoned him and he is looking to fill the void. He agreed and now that is his reasoning for all behavior. Whenever I ask why now he will say, "It's because my mom wasn't around when I was a kid". That and/or the need for validation. He also admitted he has low self-esteem and never felt good enough.

Does he understand he betrayed your trust and your emotions?
I don't know. He says he does but then his actions tell another story. He says he understands how hurt I am but he never really seems interested in how I am feeling other than if I am mad at him or feeling distant. He will ask for reassurance for himself or accuse me of being unfaithful. Or get upset because I am not over it and keep bringing it up.

Has he broken down and cried and blurted out in a sobbing twisted heap...."I am so sorry for what I did to you, you trusted me and I totally betrayed you?"

He has cried, many times. He has said he was sorry he hurt me, he was so wrong for what he did, and I deserve someone better.

Is he changing his behaviors?

This is a tough one. His behavior has changed for sure. He no longer looks at porn, he deleted all the facebook women, no longer talks to any other woman, and changed jobs. He began accusing me constantly for awhile although he has been trying to control that behavior. He would ask for reassurance and again is trying to control that behavior. He also became hypersexual. In the aftermath of D-day he did change a lot but he still holds a "selfish" mentality. I'll sort of explain how our daily interactions go down below.

Is he being completely transparent?

As far as I know, yes.


These were amazing questions and you really had me thinking. Thank you! It's so hard for me to analyze his behavior and changes because I am so emotionally invested and right in the thick of it. I am so confused at times and I 100% believe it is due to gaslighting. I wanted to give an example of our daily interaction. I apologize if this is long. I will do my best to be completely accurate.

Yesterday, I did feel angry most of the day. Shortly before WH got home from work I began working on homemade Christmas for our extended family. I put together jars with homemade sweets. Doing that gave me a lot of pride and I was pleased with the outcome. It felt good, I felt good when WH got home. Shortly before that he called to let me know he was on his way. I told him I had something to show him that I was very proud of.
I was holding our youngest son when he came in, I unlocked the door for him and joyfully greeted him with a "Hey! There you are! How was your day?" He seemed equally happy. He hugged me and kissed me on the cheek. I pointed out the jars and he had a look of impression and told me good job. Then he took off his jacket and said, "Come here. Give me a kiss. Did you miss me? It didn't seem like you missed me very much?" ***I began to feel confused*** I told him I did in fact miss him and asked him what he wanted for dinner. Since I had cooked all day we agreed on picking up a pizza. So I went out and did that. When I came back 25 mins later he seemed sort of distant. He made a comment about how long it took me. I explained I went to one place but their card machine wasn't working so I had to go to another since I only had $10 in cash on me. He responded by saying, "You promise?" ***I began feeling a little agitated because this is generally where he begins accusing***. He also began making comments about how I seemed off. I left happy and came back upset and he wondered why. He was afraid I was mad at him.

I'll stop there, but so many times I am perfectly fine and happy until he makes a comment about how I didn't appear happy to see him, I didn't miss him, why did it take me so long to do something, did I have anyone over while he was gone, why am I made up, did I get a shower, why is this placed here, I appear off, etc. Then we end up having a long drawn out conversation. I hate it. Every comment and question leaves me feeling confused, angry, and thinking wtf?


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, December 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((hugs)))) I read your profile. He has a pretty extensive need for external female validation and he may have an addiction to the attention/sex.

It is no wonder that your gut/instincts are on high alert. It does not seem that he "gets it" at all and is just saying what he thinks you need to hear in order to keep you and his outside activities. He may be towing the line right now but it won't last unless he really starts to do the real work of digging deep and coming clean. I also suspect you don't know everything and he isn't telling you the whole truth on much of it.

he goes into this cycle of self-pity because I do not trust him
If he truly got it, he would completely understand why you cannot trust him right now, and certainly not expect trust from you.

At times he will get defensive and even angry because we have gone over it before.
If he truly gets it, he won't get angry with your questions. He will understand that he hurt you deeply and you may need to ask the same question 100 times until you hear what you need to hear to start healing.

He also does a lot of interrupting and talking around questions.
He is trying to manipulate the conversation and avoid the questions. That isn't remorse and that isn't being truthful.

I have always been faithful and loyal to you

??? How does he figure that? He has already been having emotional affairs when he talks intimately with another and having sex online with someone else does rate as an affair. Also, anything he does that he hides from you rates as a betrayal. It betrays your trust. It damages the intimacy you and he are supposed to share. There is a good book called "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass that can help him understand what constitutes an affair and what is needed to help heal that affair. I suggest if he is serious about this that he reads it (and then reports back to you what he is learning and how he feels about what he is reading). My WSO and I are reading this together, and we only get thru a page or two a day because he has new insights and comments on a lot of it. He didn't completely understand about EA's either until the book helped him see the damage he has been doing.

So he will answer but then go on a long tangent of how "faithful" he is.
If he was truly faithful, he would not need to go on a tangent. The more someone tries to convince you of something, the more likely they are lying and trying to cover it up by pounding the lies into your head.

I made the suggestion it could be because his mother abandoned him and he is looking to fill the void. He agreed and now that is his reasoning for all behavior
He is just telling you what you want to hear. He needs to think these things thru and have some insights on his own. And he needs to take those insights and expand upon them. I am sure he has issues from her abandonment, but he isn't dealing with those issues in a healthy way.
That and/or the need for validation. He also admitted he has low self-esteem and never felt good enough.
I am also sure that has something to do with why he needs to have every female he can find validate that he is attractive, wanted, and virile. He is an empty cup inside, and he is trying to fill that cup with superficial fluff. Fluff dissipates fast and so he has to keep filling it over and over. He needs to learn to fill that cup himself. A good counselor can help him with that. If you can't find one, there are lots of books you can get free from the libraries on how to build self esteem. He needs to start building from the inside instead of looking for something outside to fill him up.

he never really seems interested in how I am feeling other than if I am mad at him or feeling distant. He will ask for reassurance for himself or accuse me of being unfaithful. Or get upset because I am not over it and keep bringing it up.
None of that is remorseful. It is self-centered and focused on himself. And he is projecting when he accuses you of being unfaithful. Since, deep down in his soul, he knows he has been unfaithful, he projects that onto others and feels that since he is doing it, everyone else probably is also.

You aren't supposed to be having to defend yourself here. You are the wounded party. I am sure there are issues in the relationship, but those can be addressed AFTER he starts working on himself and trying to rebuild your trust, and he sounds like he has a lot of issues to work on. If he isn't getting anywhere with his counselor, he may need to try a new one. But he needs to be digging a lot deeper if he is going to fix this.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 10:28 AM, December 25th (Wednesday)]


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 15241 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In order to give myself peace I have tried a different approach of analyzing the situation. I've been so focused on what might of happened that I haven't given much thought to what did happen. I'm not sure if that's a natural part of tge process or not but from now on I will stick to facts only. I've been reading a book titled (strangely enough) Surviving Infidelity. One chapter discusses why affairs happen. The closest description to my WH situation that I could find was "poor-risk partners". It basically describes someone who has serious personality issues due to FOO issues that are self-centered, impulsive, and lacks empathy. From what I read these type of affairs are much harder to deal with than ones that were a one-time thing or involve emotions because the probability of change is low. Sex addiction is also common in these types which I've come to suspect anyways. I've questioned WH on whether he feels he has a sex addiction and he says he doesn't think so. I am not inside his head so I don't know how he really views sex but I do know he had an issue with porn, equates sex to the only form of intimacy and love, and has a high sex drive. At times I feel like an object rather than a person. Sex can be a touchy subject for me anyways because I suffered sexual abuse growing up. I guess my next step is requesting he have a psych eval to rule this out. I so badly want to believe it was a mistake and just a moment of weakness but there is an obvious pattern as well as my screaming gut. The best I can do at this time is detach emotionally and think in a logical sense rather than let my emotions guide the way. I feel somewhat relieved with this realization. A sort of calm has set in and for the first time in months I am not feeling the need to obsess over details. Perhaps it's best I don't know the truth especially sense the facts already paint a pretty clear picture.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe I have the truth and deep down that is enough for me but I feel obligated to stay because he never really "cheated" on me.

The hell he didn't!!! Don't accept that at all! He cheated - and he and OW talked to each other and sent pictures until he ejaculated. That's pretty damned physical to me!

He cheated - he gave her attention instead of you. He hid it from you. He was sexual with her. He was inappropriate with her. He continued to lie to you.

He meets every last definition of an emotional affair. Just because he does't want to be labeled a cheater doesn't mean he isn't a cheater.

I have a truck. Every day I get in my truck, turn the key, go to work, and then after work I do the same thing. On weekends I get in my truck and go to the stores and run errands. Don't you DARE call me a driver. I wasn't driving. I was just going someplace.

He knows he cheated and he's not just minimizing, he's gaslighting. You know he cheated, and he knows he did, but he says 'No I didn't' until you say 'Well maybe he didn't. Maybe I'm overreacting.'

Look up the definition of emotional affair. Look it up 100 times so that he can't twist it into being just 'one skewed website'. And then call him out on his bullshit.

If he won't own what he did, start the 180.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As someone at a similar age who had a similar WS (he was looking for validation from female coworkers and it ended up biting him in the ass)-- I would totally agree that whatever you decide is okay (R or D)-- but I will say that it sounds like, deep down, you know this is a deal breaker.

This really rings out to me, because I had the same monologue in my head after DDay:

I'm over it. I don't know why I am wasting my time. I don't think I can ever trust him again and without trust you have nothing. I'm convinced he has issues that will take years to fix and honestly I don't feel very supportive in that regard. I don't want to wait for someone to fix themselves. I wanted someone to be okay, or as close to it as possible, from the get go. I know I am not perfect and I have faults but is it really too much to ask for your spouse to not engage in such OBVIOUSLY inappropriate behavior and is it understandable that you don't want to sit around and wait for them to get it?

I struggled with whether I was obligated to stick around to help him through his FOO issues, etc because of the vows I made. Ultimately, what I decided to do was walk away (I moved out and began the 180/NC) and, if he continued with IC and made progress through his actions, I would take him back. Instead, he gaslighted me, took his A underground and used his IC to find new ways to either blame me for what he did, or justify his behavior.

It's so scary, but you're young enough to walk away and have a second chance with someone who isn't so much work. The biggest fear for me was that we would R and I'd think I had my H back, but then three years or five years or ten years down the road he'd do this again. I just didn't want to give him anymore of my life and take that chance.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I know this is sort of unsolicited advice based on my experience... but your situation and your thoughts just seem very familiar to me.

((hugs))


BS / D

Posts: 863 | Registered: Jun 2013
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he and OW talked to each other and sent pictures until he ejaculated

As far as I know they never exchanged photos but they "joked" about sex. She said she had no eggs for his swimmers and he replied all the better . He asked if she was playing hard to get which she replied "harder is always better just saying" and he replied "I think so too but nice and slow". Then she said "oh yes let me get mine before you get yours" he replied "most definitely". They agreed they were on the same page and he asked if she was sweet on him, she told him she was. I have the damn conversation memorized almost word for word. I don't know if that is cybersex or just close to it. I felt while reading it they were testing each other to take things to a physical level but I don't know. He denies that. While he agrees he was in the wrong and it was inappropriate he maintains there were no intentions. He simply did it because he was bored and he liked the attention.

Of course there was more than just that conversation. There was a similar yet shorter conversation the day before. And e-mail and facebook messages exchanged daily for 3 months. She at one point told him she missed him and "love ya". She called him pet names. They shared information about their personal lives. She was unhappily married and talked a lot about her daughter. He told her about his previous divorce and his mother abandoning him when he a kid. He even told her about his death.

Yes, I'm with you. I believe it was an EA, 100%. I've read him all kinds of crap about what constitutes as an EA and he will simply say, "Yeah I can see that but there were no emotions on my part. I didn't have feelings for her." So goes right back to being an "inappropriate conversation".

ETA: I am not sure if he jacked off during that conversation or not. I do know he would view porn and masturbate at work on many occasions. He also admitted to getting turned on when he was talking to her so the chances....yeah I'd say he probably did jack off.

[This message edited by cl131716 at 1:31 PM, December 26th (Thursday)]


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The biggest fear for me was that we would R and I'd think I had my H back, but then three years or five years or ten years down the road he'd do this again.

Yes, mine too. I think that is why I am struggling so much. If it was a first offense, I think I could deal with it easier but it's not. It's a pattern and I am 100% confident if he doesn't work out his issues we will end up here again.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
OnTilt
♀ Member
Member # 34140
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cl, I'm right there with you. Oh wait, that's not right, I'm a good 1.5 years ahead of you yet still in the same place!

So I understand what you are going through. While the details may not be the same, the overall "theme" is. The "I never cheated", "there was no love/emotions involved", "there were no intentions", "it wasn't a relationship". And the long tangents about their faithfulness.

I agree it makes it so much harder; how do you take a stance against that? What exactly are you taking a stance against? Your gut says one thing, your heart says another and your wh twists words and talks in riddles until your mind doesn't know WTF to think.

But try to put aside for a minute what he DID, instead focus on how he made/makes you feel. Unless this is the state you have been in for your entire life with all your relationships, then it's a pretty good bet you feel the way you do because your gut is right.

You've still been betrayed, betrayal comes in many forms. It doesn't require a penis in a vagina to be a betrayal. He is minimizing your feelings, he is playing off your confusion to keep YOU off balance and keep HIMSELF comfortable.

I so badly want to tell you to take a strong, HARD stance NOW because I do believe that will give you the best odds to wake your wh off, but I feel hypocritical telling you this because I was not able to follow my own advice.

But keep in consideration that I am almost 2 years out and STILL feel as you do now. And while I have now decided to take a strong stance because his bullshit semantic use of 'I never cheated' no longer holds water with me, I have SERIOUSLY diminished the chances of wh EVER coming out of denial that he betrayed me in one form or another. I gave him 2 years to bury himself in further denial!

If you can avoid that, please do! I really hope for a better outcome for you than my outcome!!

((((HUGS))))


BS(Me), WH(Him) in our 50's
Status: I'm giving up on him

Posts: 379 | Registered: Dec 2011
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Yeah I can see that but there were no emotions on my part. I didn't have feelings for her."

This is bullshit. He was willing to risk his marriage for someone he had no feelings for? He made time daily to talk, text, fb, etc, but there were no feelings?

He's lying to himself, and he clearly had feelings about the way their relationship made him feel, so yes, he did have emotions about it.

I would seriously start the 180. If he can't own what he did, then he will never be remorseful. You know he cheated. He knows that too, but he's still lying to you. You don't need to accept that. You don't need to stay because he's saying he didn't cheat.

You need to worry about you and put you first, as he is doing with himself. He is lying, and he is unremorseful. He refuses to even acknowledge his wrongdoing.

So wrong, on every level.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
doggiediva
♀ Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh I hear you and I think I understand...

My WH has always been hard to live with and our marriage has always been somewhat difficult..During the A and during false R my WH was even a bigger prick...

For instance I would go to WH for something as simple as feedback on a fine art photo that I had just finished shooting/processing and had pride in...Eventually I stopped going to him for opinions because he was negative or ehh about the feedback..These were photos that ended up consistently selling within a short amount of time..

I came to know that WH was very stingy with his compliments for me..

I sort of know how you feel..Almost like you wish you would catch him red handed in a PA with your own eyes so you can walk away immediately, no questions asked...

I eventually did say screw this mess, I am out..I have been out of the marriage mentally, eventually to be out physically..

Question, What industry does your WH work in ? How can he get that much privacy to not get caught jacking off while on the clock?

((((Hugs))))

[This message edited by doggiediva at 5:40 PM, December 26th (Thursday)]


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 1202 | Registered: Nov 2011
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, December 26th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He was willing to risk his marriage for someone he had no feelings for? He made time daily to talk, text, fb, etc, but there were no feelings?

That's my question too! I think that almost makes it worse. If she meant nothing then what does that mean I meant? If he is willing to risk me for nothing then I must be below nothing.


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
Topic Posts: 22
Pages: 1 · 2

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