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Wife had a one night stand last night
To cover the points.
No, we don't drink when we talk (both us us have barely drunk since). Also, we don't really drink in the week (even a glass of wine) unless the odd occasion when we go to a gig or whatever.
Stopping orgasming. I have no idea. Occasionally says over years, what do you think it's like not have done it for ages and I say, well why do you stop when you're about to? She says, I don't know. Then I give up as she doesn't want to discuss. Work that one out.
About the great sex then have a child, good point and I made this to her. Not much to say back. Does rather raise the idea that she needs to get back into bed to get her pregnant asap.
Revenge affair, not even discussed (bar my prostitute joke). Where do you even start with that anyway? Sending pics of my now notorious pen1s to strangers on the internet (I'm not sure how it works)? Also, it feels like the first step on the road to becoming swingers. Also, as I said before, if I leave this, I want to do it with my self-respect intact and the moral high ground (petty I know). Not sure this will help with that.
Mutilate my pen1s - not a 100% serious remark, but referring to the fact that it had been inferred before that maybe some skin would need to be chopped off.
Had she complained in the past? Was this a too sore a subject to discuss without hurt feelings? Only complained relatively recently and I had semi-agreed to go and see someone. No, not sore subject to discuss, as think I'm showing here.
[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 3:18 PM, January 15th (Wednesday)]
Also, she said she alway leads the relationship (having baby, etc) and I said I KNOW, THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE ALWAYS ASKING FOR MORE BUT I NEVER ASK FOR ANYTHING FROM YOU.Did you not ask because you did not have anything to ask for but you did not feel you could ask?
Chatted for two hours but the 'highlight' was me shouting at her that she wants to reconcile and for me to do this, that and the other to make things betterSo she expects you to basically win her back? She wants to reconcile but only if you fix what's wrong. >>>ZZZTTTT<<<< Wrong answer
She needs to address her own issues. If what you were doing before wasn't good enough then why should you believe anything new that you do will make any difference now? And that is completely setting aside the elephant in the room of how freakin' unbelievable it is for her to not realize she needs to prove herself and not the other way around.
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing a remorseful WS here. I see a blubbering hot mess trying to use her tears to manipulate you and convince you that you are the one responsible for this mess, not her.
I 100% see your points, though this is against the backdrop of constant apologies and reassurance etc, which is v confusing. I said about her not being properly repentant and she said that she admits that she doesn't think she really fully realises what she has done to me yet, that it comes in flashes but she is using coping strategies, etc, to block it out. Also, when she speaks to friends/that counsellor (all female, if that's relevant), although no one has told her that what she did was right and quite a few, including her very best friend of over 20 years, broke into tears, their instinct as friends has been to tell her that what she did was out of character and support/comfort her, which she said may be skewing her viewpoint to an extent.
Anyway, she came back here later, in a mess, properly sobbing and apolgising, etc, yet again (blah). Me not mad, then we sat down and she offered to run through the stages I'm going through on that link that someone posted earlier, which she said she has read loads of times. Said she recognised how I had been experiencing most of these, but most discussion from her was focused on revenge affair idea again.
Said this was the only way that she would feel better ever again. Repeated her 'idea' from earlier (I didn't have time to put on here) that we have a month apart while she tries to come to terms with what she's done/who she is now and I do what I want. I said how would that make you feel? And she said that it didn't matter as she'd done it herself now so was the least I deserved (said that obviously she wouldn't do anything at the time). Although I don't think this is any move from her to distance us from each other, etc, I do think this is easy for her to say now, as only this morning she was saying that she wants to cancel our plan for her to go away for the weekend and stay here, so is she really going to go through with anything so huge? I'm still not seriously considering this as viable.
Anyway, another big day today. I'm going to go and see a doctor and try and get referred for free counselling/see if I need medication on the NHS (UK National Health Service) and she has booked in to have her STD tests done tonight. I understand this can be quite unpleasant, so may give her another shock. She has taken Friday off and is going to try and go for another counselling session, and wants me to go with her asap. Has said that if I do agree to go for couples counselling, this doesn't mean that she thinks that I have committed to reconciling but she thinks it will help. Will see what today brings and see I suppose, though her behaviour is consisent, so suppose I need to try and work out if I can get over this and move forward.
Revenge affair - Very bad not-good idea. It will not work. It will make everything worse.
Month apart - Also very bad not-good idea. Not if you want to R.
Let me put it in this context. Whenever members of SI advise someone to detach we usually advise living as separately as possible. Separate homes ideally, but separate rooms if necessary. Now considering that is how we (collectively) advise someone on how to detach why would you and your WW think for one second that living apart will promote repairing of the emotional connection?
Okay, thanks Brandon, that all makes sense. Also, the general consensus I have heard is that if you're communicating constantly and civilly (which we are) then it's good to keep that up. We are luckily two people in a four bed house, so we have space, and we are currently sleeping in two diff rooms, though sometimes she comes in here and sits on the bed and chats and we hug and so on.
Another morning of her saying all the right things about her fault, no excuses, etc, and we agreed that we have had a huge brain dump about previous situation that will be useful later, and has been now to an extent, but that I am stewing on some of the mitigating circumstances while we're apart and this is leading to anger and her being defensive (at times) when we are.
Agreement now is that we will park all that and come back to it later if we need to repair marriage (presumably in couples councelling if we do that). We have kind of done this one our own so far, so now is the time to do this in a more structured way based on whatever steps are advised to take in this situation (i.e. drawing up definite rules she has to stick to other than the obvious that have been agreed so far, such as no contact and STD tests). She 100% agreed with all of this.
Thanks again for listening, I really appreciate it.
No worries brother. Hope you find some peace.
The most important thing right now is 100% truth. Any progress that is made will be offset by future TT. The whole 2 steps forward one back thing.
Also, I agree, NO RA. While she feels NOW that it will put you on equal footing, it won't. It won't change your hurt. What it does is again only for her benefit, gives her the "we both did it" defense when she is put in an uncomfortable situation.
Okay, one last thing I forgot to say about parking all that: is agreed that setting rules for her is first step and her following; then discussing what she did and why; then how our relationship was. The stuff she has been throwing around - sex and baby wise comes - at the very end of the process. She agreed to all of that, though we'll see if she sticks to it I suppose.
Anyway, am going to get off here now, am working from home today so nothing to stop me (bar the fact I'm busy with work!), but have promised myself not to come on here until eight hours time when I finish as too long is prob counter-productive in my case. Any comments left here appreciated as usual, will pick up later if anything comes.
[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 3:41 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]
Story for you. About a week after I discovered my xWW's affair, she and I were sitting in bed one night. She looked unusually tense. I asked her what was going on, and she said, "I'm trying to figure out how to fix this." End of story.
Your wife's desire for you to have a RA and a month apart reminds me of that story. She would like to find a way to "fix" the situation. Unfortunately, there is no fixing a wound like this - only healing.
You're doing incredibly well with all of this. Keep up,your excellent discipline to focus on work during work hours. This is very, very healthy, as I'm sure you can see and already know.
[This message edited by nomistakeaboutit at 8:34 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]
Your wife is showing remorse but is it guilt? Right now if your wife want to get pregnant you are the only game in town. If you parted, then divorced, she has to meet another suitable guy, get to know him, then marry. Total 2 - 3 years? By which time pregnancy will be much more difficult. Probably not going to happen.
So to get the baby she wants she has to get you back in bed, having regular sex ASAP. Every month that goes by is another month lost out of her fertility bank. If it takes 6 months to reconcile thats six fertile periods gone. From a female perspective I would reckon that her 'guilt' is really about her need to get pregnant and not necessarily about the ONS. Expect seduction time very soon; all aimed at fertilization.
If your WW is obsessed with getting pregnant and thats her reason for all the tears, sobbing and remorse; then what happens to your reassurance that she will never do this again? She enjoyed her ONS but is she necessarily horrified at what she has done? Can you guarantee she won't cheat again?
Regaining trust is not as simple as listening to her promises.
Thank Nomistake, though I've popped in quickly now (albeit in my lunch hour, so I think I can get away with it!). Revenge sex seems like the second step on a slippery slope to me, though this time it would be me taking a misstep and not my wife, so am steering clear of lowering myself to that level (for want of a better phrase).
OK - all valid considerations and ones I have. Though I'm sure she's ultra keen to get back in the saddle, and that her (without wanting to sound sexist) hormones (again, for want of a better word), are at least part of this, I don't think she's quite that baby obsessed. If she was at the pretending-she's-taking-the-pill-but-secretly-not level of baby-mania, then her best bet would have been not to confess then I would have carried on as normal, but this has blown that out of the water (which, if anything, shows more sign of guilt I suppose). And that's especially as, because of this, that's all off the table now for at least as long as it takes her to get her STD checks, etc.
Anyway, as I pointed out when she said she still wanted a baby, she might already have one on the way, and as this other guy also has one from his previous marriage, that would make a second for weekends if she goes back over there. Not my finest moment, but hard to resist shooting in this situation when you're presented with an open goal like that.
As for would she do it again: I honestly believe she never would have without being blind drunk.
Right logging out now, now back until tonight (I promise!).
[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 7:26 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]
Have P'med you!
I don't see one ounce of remorse in your wife - not one. I see regret, but remorse? Nope. She keeps twisting the conversation away from the A. She keeps listing 'stages' as if it's clinical and you just have to go through them. She is offering for you to have sex with someone else, as if to 'even the score'. She is doing everything EXCEPT owning what she did, and digging into why she did it. She is the definition of regretful but not remorseful, IMO.
The next time you are discussing the situation, and she decides to make it about 'marital issues' or the things she's been unhappy about for years, just get up and walk away. If she asks why you are leaving, tell her that you are there to discuss her A and not to run through all of her problems. Maybe she does have some real concerns, but now is not the time to focus on her problems, and she knows it. She's trying to redirect to get out of the hot seat. It's wrong, and the more she gets away with it, the more she thinks it's ok to do. It isn't, at all.
These 'steps' she thinks she sees in you - all of them? They are stages you go through over time, and that time isn't a week. She thinks this will end in a very short time obviously, and she's just waiting it out. Why do you think she keeps checking these stages? Because she wants to know when you'll be done being angry.
No remorse = No reconciliation. She needs to 'own her shit' as we say. Until then, any conversation is a waste of time.
Good luck with her. She's kicking and screaming through this, and she's the center of attention, which is what a cheater wants. Leave her alone with her thoughts for a while. See where that gets her.
And if someone is to leave, it should be her. Why on earth do you need to leave because she slept with someone else?
Great - Love Will Tear Us Apart by Joy Division just came on the radio. One of my favourite songs of all time but the lyrical content, for those who don't know, is about a marriage being ruined by infidelity. Ian Curtis, who wrote it and was having an affair he couldn't end, was dead by the time it came out so it was effectively his suicide note. Cheery! (Don't worry, this isn't a cry for help!)
I've been following you closely TWM. I'm pulling for you!! JD is one of my all time favorite bands. Huge influence on me musically.
Check out "Let Me Lie To You" by The Afghan Whigs. I may have to post the lyrics of that to one of my threads as I've adopted it as an anthem. LMLTY is a wayward man speaking to a betrayed woman. WIth various parts of my life I have seen the point of view from both.
Pulling for you TWM. Will be thinking about you while I'm NHS hopping on your side of the pond next week.
For what it's worth I think you've been playing it well. I do agree with most of the posts here and have some alarm bells.
But love...love will tear us apart. again.
Yeah, sucks. there was a time I turned the radio off for 6 months and listed to books on tape for my commute.
I don't know if it'll help in your case, but since your wife seems to have fixated on the "revenge affair will make us even" idea I'll pass along what I said to my wife when she proposed that kind of "solution."
Marriage is not a zero-sum game. Me hurting you won't make the hurt you did to me go away, it'll just add more hurt to the situation.
I'm working right now, too, so what will probably turn out to be a benefit, I will be brief.
1. Is someone remorseful?
This question comes up a lot on this web site. Many times, people are CLEARLY not remorseful, so it's easy to discern. Those people just don't care. In fact, sometimes they seem to be enjoying it a bit, which is REALLY disturbing.
I respect everyone's right to express their views/opinions on this site. It's part of what makes it so interesting and valuable. Everyone looks at it through their own prism. My opinion is that your wife does seem remorseful, but only you really know. Only you know her and her typical reactions, etc., etc. She is definitely exhibiting behaviors that are bothersome (RA suggestion, reaching for reasons that have to do with you, versus her, etc.), but it seems to me that it is probably human nature to do some of that…just to minimize the horror of what has just happened. I would Google remorse and read about it, though. I just Googled "How can you tell if a person is remorseful?". Here was part of the first response.
Remorse: is an emotional expression of personal regret felt by a person after he or she has committed an act which they deem to be shameful, hurtful, or violent. Remorse is closely allied to guilt and self-directed resentment. When a person regrets an earlier action or failure to act, it may be because of remorse or in response to various other consequences, including being punished for the act or omission
Guilt (emotion)is an emotion that occurs when a person believes that they have violated a moral standard.
SHAME: A painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.
The second thing I wanted to focus your attention on is her drinking. You said this:
As for would she do it again: I honestly believe she never would have without being blind drunk.
If that is true, what has she resolved for herself about her binge drinking? If this is the reason it truly happened, then what does that mean about the future of binge drinking for her?
Finally, I think it is very healthy for you to be on this site as much as it is helpful for you. You are the best judge of how much time you should be interacting on this site. I'm just amazed at you and other people who are able to function so well at work, in the aftermath of a betrayal…that's what I was saying. I was not able to perform very well at my business in the immediate aftermath, to say it mildly, and I am still not functioning at 100%, two years later. Every situation is different, so there is no apples to apples comparison here, obviously, but at the root of it, we were both betrayed and hurt badly. I'm just saying that I admire how well you've handled yourself.
Right, it's Saturday morning and I haven't been on here since Thursday afternoon, and a lot has happened.
I went for a walk on Thursday lunchtime and came to a calm realisation that this isn't going to work. If it was merely me forgiving a one-off that she has fessed up to then maybe, but the rest of it?
Firstly, the sex. This idea that it is going to be better than ever isn't going to happen. She has told me she wants me to be able to climax inside her, which I couldn't physically do before. Now that I know this other guy did, can you imagine the scenario of us both trying to get me to do it in future? How psychologically XXXXed is that going to be for both of us?!
Secondly, I know she has a conscience and even if I can get over this, I know she will feel guilt, and can even forsee a scenario whereby I am up for sex in general and she is pushing me away/tensing up even worse than she was before.
And at the end of that, babies. All of the above has to be sorted before we can get to that. And I can foresee a scenario whereby, in order to get through the second point above, she could in theory have to go back on the pill before we can move to this stage. She's an emotional person and I can see her losing her sh1t at this stage.
Anyway, she comes home from work on Thurs and I decide to be Humphrey Bogart at the end of Casablanca and let her off scott-free, and basically say 'Our sex life is never going to work in time to have a child and that's never going to make you happy, so we should be grown up and call it quits now.' I don't know if I'm playing mindgames with her; it worries me a lot that I am but I don't know it, if that makes sense (my mind is something of a stranger right now), but I'm clear that the above all makes sense and that I don't think I am. I'm also aware that I'm blocking out the future, but that we both have to face this now and then I'll have to worry about that later.
We have an incredibly calm conversation which goes 'We both still love each other but this is not going to work. Let's get divorced.' She says she wishes she could flick a switch and want to have sex with me like she used to, but she can't (but then instantly says, 'But we had that spontaneous sex in the hallway last week at my instigation and it was good, so...' Figure that one out but I can't be bothered any more and don't pursue it).
This is all v calm and then she backtracks (she was a bit teary thoughout this, I wasn't) and says, 'I can't imagine not having you in my life, can we still be friends?' I say no, that's not going to work (ironically because we still love each other, not hate each other).
Vague reconcilliation talk goes on and we're both exhausted and we both fall asleep in the same bed we've been sitting on for the first time since this started (nothing sexual). We wake up at about 4am or 5am and talk some more, and I deep down want to say to her 'I've offered you a chance to say none of that matters, I'll do anything but you've rejected me again', but I know that if I do this, it means I was playing a game all along (if that makes sense).
Also, I was sitting on one extra caveat that I was scared to offer up, and I think once again that if I don't offer it up then I am actually playing mindgames. So I say it: 'If you can get over all that stuff for now and promise to move forward, I will commit to reconcilliation, we can try and start doing basic things like a married couple THIS WEEKEND (watching TV, going to cinema together, etc) and I will commit to couples counselling'. So I put that on the table and she doesn't go for it. I am obviously hurt but I don't show it as I don't want to be playing a game.
We wake later and I have to go to work (hilariously she has taken the cowardly approach and taken a day's holiday to see a friend and for STD tests, etc). Her original plan was then to go away again like last weekend and think things through, but I have told her previously that I would rather not spend whole weekends alone, and if she is to move out she should do it on weekdays and we spend weekends together (plus I have obviously made the above 'offer'). Anyway, I have to go to work, we have a petty row based on the fact that we're trying to say a lot in a short time as I have to rush to work and she keeps procrastinating, so my last words are 'My cards are on the table, let me know what you decide'.
On way to work, she texts me saying (quote) 'I love you and I am sorry we left on a bad note. Will be back early on Sunday, I'll let you know the time I get in. Please take care of yourself and we'll talk then. If you need to talk before then, please call me. xxx'
I am now XXXXing fuming. What she did before isn't even a consideration, neither are the above probs, but I basically can't believe she's running away and doing what she wants when I'm at my lowest ebb and I've told her I don't want to be alone right now, and offered to reconcile. Also, if she is like this now, how's she going be patient, etc, in a year's time?
Also, the night before she said to me that it's like we both want to end it, but we're both scared to and we're trying to get the other do it. I become convinced that this what she is doing.
She sends a few more texts saying 'I hope you're okay', and in the end I'm so angry, I think, XXXX it, I'm not taking any more of this' and call her to end it.
When I call her there's near silence for a few seconds and she sounds scared, then I basically list the above reasons and say I want a divorce. It's fair to say I'm pretty angry. I put the phone down a few times and then she calls back. But the general jist is that she says, 'Okay, I won't go', and I say, 'I want you stay because you want to, not because you feel you should'.
She also tries to say that I should take it as read that she wants to accept my idea (?!?!?!?!?!?!) but she's nipping away for the weekend so she can get some space in the meantime because it will be good for both of us. She also tells me I need to speak to someone about this and asks me to promise not to do anything stupid - all while she's on a train going halfway across the country away from me!
Throughout the afternoon, I'm bombarded with texts and missed calls and texts explaining that I'm ' the most important person' but she's going away. I basically say that her behaviour contradicts the idea that I'm the most important and I can't believe she's dictating terms, etc. She keeps texting me back ignoring my points and it angers me that I feel like I'm being reasonable but am being treated like I'm being unfair in some way. In the end, my phone keeps ringing so I turn it off and somehow do some work (with very loud, vaguely angry music on my headphones, which I find strangely calming. In fact, the only time I felt calm was after I'd told her to XXXX off).
On way home I switch phone on and more texts and missed calls come through. She is her on way to her friend's and says she will come back tomorrow instead as there are no trains back tonight. I text, 'don't bother, this is the final nail in the coffin, if you want to know why, read the above texts' (I'm being given a lift and am in back seat so can text but not ring her).
She finally texts: 'I feel sick to my stomach of everything I have done. I will never forgive myself for this for the rest of my life'. I think it's fair to say that I'm getting mixed signals. When I get home, she rings again and I ignore it. I don't eat, I lay on the bed in the dark and feel terrible for about two hours. Luckily, at 9pm my brain starts to kick in and I turn the TV on. A friend wanted to meet for a drink but I felt too weak to go (I have lost a stone since the beginning of the month, though in fairness I was dieting/not drinking for the nine days prior to finding out, so that explains about half of it, but I know it's pretty drastic).
Anyway, I watch a comedy show and find it funny - the first time I've managed to do this since it happened. I take two herbal sleeping tablets and fall asleep at about 11pm. My phone is on silent but unfortunately I get woken up by it vibrating at 4am. My wife sending 'xxx'. I think she means it but also is saying 'Look, I'm awake in the middle of the night, I feel awful about this'. In a weaker moment, thining about her texts about how ashamed she feels, I send back 'x'. However, I also know that this is because she woke me up when I need sleep the most and part of me wants to say to her later YOU WOKE ME UP!!!
It's 8am now and I haven't been back to sleep, and I feel better than I did yesterday. No real reason, my brain merely seems to be giving me a bit of a break (and typing ALL - sorry for the length! - of this is helping too I suppose). I have two offers on the table to meet with friends, so I'm going to go to the gym this morning, fill the afternoon, then go out for drinks like last weekend.
I know that either way I'm going to have to see her on Sunday and I know I have to throw her out. I've basically been too nice and she's been taking the p1ss. Her friend she can stay with is back from holiday now, so she can go and stay there. I know that it's more convenient for her to stay here for the weekdays and go away and hide (as she called it before) at weekends, as she obviously has to go to work near our house on weekdays, but I'm not going to put up with that any more now her friend is back.
Our friend has a one bed flat and she'll have to sleep on the floor or sofa, so she can see how she likes that, and she can have some more of the space she wants. Plus I can work on being alone, see how I feel, and go to work each day and then the gym, etc, in the evening, so I'll be busier than at weekends. We'll see how it goes. I think it's fair to say that I did reach the angry stage that you guys predicted after all.
Thanks for listening and for your responses.
[This message edited by TheWrongedMan at 2:30 AM, January 18th (Saturday)]