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User Topic: New info, but not TT - strange phenomenon
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I ask because for a little bit after my DD I soooo wanted to make the other guy out to be a predator, a person who uses women. But he wasnt....my wife was just as aggessive as he was. Maybe at first he was more so....but my wife was so very into it.

Let me correct something about this response....

But he wasnt....my wife was just as aggessive as he was.

This is important...and not important all at the same time.


Back when my DD occurred my wifes AP was NOT a predator type. My wife didn't believe so, my Pastor knew him lightly and did not know of any previous adultery experience. So I accepted this as a "truth".

Since DD I have caught him in a very comprimising position with another woman, not his wife. His body language shift as well as hers told me something improper was up...but that is where I stopped.

My Pastor has since confirmed that he is indeed onto another woman, within months of dumping my wife and is likely to have had another woman before my wife.

I also learned that shortly after they first met, he gave my wife poems. My wife wondered why he would do something, but at the time she did not feel any threat....so she accepted them as "friendly jestures". This, by the way, was a new-to-me occurrence...just learned of this last week....knew they had "pet names" for each other, but thought they were just developed from how they spoke to each other, now I see the easy tie into poetry......but don't think it was an outright lie or even a lie of ommission. It is something that my wife has pieced together as she examines her road to adultery.


So NOW the truth appears he was more in control at the begining than my wife was.

So that all kind of matters...the facts have changed and my wifes perception of her A have changed with it....causing my perception to change....as we are dependent on our fWS to "see into" their affairs.


Here is where it doesn't matter.


WS come in all shapes and sizes....some may use smooth poetry as intentional tools to have affairs, some have FOO issues that influence them to move boundaries and operate in ways that are less known but every bit influencial as the "poetry guy".

My wifes affair, your wifes affiar, any affair could not take place if either persons involved would have simply said......"no". Even a quiet, but firm no would have stopped this train wreck from occurring.

Affairs are destructive for all involved....WS and BS alike as well as whole familys. But abusive they are not....not for the ones engaged in it. If it were abusive to either of those engaged in it we would call it something else....rape, domestic violence, etc....but not an affair.

I expect my wife to remain faithful to me even in the midst of solo-attending a week-long poetry gathering at a quaint intimate coffee shop with "Pride and Prejudice" playing constantly in the back ground of a dimly lit room with a fireplace crackling away! Being intimate with other men, other women, will no longer be a choice for her.

So what is the fear?

For me the fear WAS my wife decided that while she doesn't want a relationship with her AP, she doesnt want a relationship with me either and files for D, breaking up our family.

So I examined this fear. What I came up with is that being in a relationship is a choice. My wife ALREADY chose not to have a full relationship with me when she chose adultery and all that goes with it to make that choice a possibility. You can't choose to be in an intimate relaionship with your spouse and choose to do so with another at the same time, in the same way....and this is what happened. It ALREADY happened. We know what it feels like....we felt it! We know it is a possibility....it already happened!!

At this point, 17 months out, if my wife comes to me today and says "Blakesteele, I choose not to be in a relationship with you and am filing for D" I will be hurt but I will be okay with that. I would much prefer to have THAT sentence and issue brought to me openly....then to have gone through the truama of multiple DD's, trickle truthing, fog, all of that......but that was not a choice my wife made or your wife made back then is it?

(of course, the healthiest way to bring this to your spouse is....look, my feelings are telling me something is wrong...I would like to explore what is causing these feelings so that we can address them....are you willing to do this with me?)

Before entering into true R with my wife, I asked her repeatedly if she had an exit-A. She has assured me it was not an exit-A. I dont think your wife had an exit affair either. It appears to me that exit affairs are pretty quickly discovered as such....so at 3 years out I doubt your wife is considering anything but being married to you.



Unconditional relationships are unhealthy. Unconditional love is healthy.


Right now we who are working on R are learning what the "conditions" of our relationship with our fWS is and is going to be. It is both of us working to figure out how to have a relationship together....in spite of the hurt and pain we are all in.

Peace be with you my friend.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:25 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3962 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The truth is, they would not have done it if they did not enjoy it. That hurts.

.....and that is an understatement....but, how can words really capture the pain?

Honest to God....I can think of no other pain that is at this level that one spouse can inflict on the other. I have read tens of books....all cite this as one of the top traumas a M can experience and a BS can be put through.


Also honestly, I reasoned that the pleasure must be intense for my wife....as she took her A underground when every close friend, all of our family, even our Pastor knew about her choices......and she kept doing it.

This is why RA was such a threat to me (threat in that all A destroy ALL involved....it would have hurt me tremendously). I honestly thought "Damn, I must be missing out on something.....look at all my wife is willing to trample on and destroy for it! What am I NOT seeing?!?!?".

I used many visualizing techniques (IC sessions, and lots of them). The strongest was reminding myself of the "meth addicted videos" I have sat through as training at work.

These people are out of control....absolutely not caring about anything but the next time they can get a fix.

I also remember how my wife reacted upon her first DD, the emails I found after I discovered her affair. She could care less about me or our family....her focus was so intently on her A that nothing else matters.


I also remember in those videos about addicts who have come clean (less than 3% make it to this level). They report feeling invincible, like they were "unhealthy" without meth. They can now say that while they were doing meth they felt good.....as they went through de-tox they felt bad, sometimes cursing that they ever did this as they looked at the sores on their bodies and their rottted teath, but sometimes still desiring to go back to it.......then when they came out the other side they admit it felt really good, but never want to go back to it. They are amazed at how they got there, but recognized while they were "there" they enjoyed themselves.

Peace.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3962 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Crushed15Feb13
♂ Member
Member # 38846
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This thread makes me feel sad. I just "know" my wife was manipulated into the affair - she says the sex wasn't that great, he was an aggressive, oafish lover, but once it started she felt she couldn't or had no reason to stop it 0 she was now an evil, bad person. That became her new normal. But now to learn I should probably expect her story and attitude to change over the course of the next few years? It took a lot of time and effort just to get this much.

Its so hard right now finding any reality that is firm enough to hold onto - I now I learn even the little I've got so far isn't really real and will change over time.

Is this what is referred to as crazy-making? Makes me feel very unsettled. I hope she is not telling me things she thinks I want to hear.

I still want the truth, as hard as that is to take. But I wish the truth could be solid, and not change over time!


Me: BH, 54
Her: WW, 54 4 yr LTA
Married 31 yrs, 2 college age boys
DDay #1: 15Feb13 - LTA 2008-2013
DDay #2: 27Jan14 - ONS, same AP 2007 - turns out it was a 5 yr LTA
Trying to understand

Posts: 250 | Registered: Mar 2013
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is this what is referred to as crazy-making?

Yes Crushed15Feb13, it is. My old IC therapist said repeatedly to me "Adultery is crazy making shit!".

It is for all involved....your wife was making herself crazy....the affair made her crazy, destroyed parts of her, confused her too.

BUT, that was her choice...she was always in control.

Again, had she not been in control, had she choosen differently, said NO to sex yet he forced her to have sex with him....the sexual experiences she had with him would have beend classified as rape.


Its a bitch of a truth to accept....but our wives, all WS enjoyed the time and experiences with their AP's more often than not. Even if the occasional sex session left them unsatisfied...there was enough of that relationship that was attractive enough for them to keep coming back.

Truthfully, the actual act of sex has very different meanings for men vs. women. It builds intimacy within a man, it is a result of intimacy with a woman. Not my opinion.....what therapist and authors profess over and over.

Gently.....even if your wife didn't yell out in orgasms with her OM, she was intimate with him.....

As you spend time on here...you will see the process through this pain is so very similar, almost identical, for those who "just" experienced an EA vs those who had full on "orgie sex after a rock concert".

The pain is traumatic in nature for all involved.

what you are doing is normal....trying to figure out the nuances of "okay, so she liked that...but didn't like that." Trying to build lists for each...maybe in an attempt to logically figure out why your wife chose adultery.

A tip from a man only 17 months out.....no list can be compiled to make logic out of adultery. It, like most all sin, is illogical in nature. Logic was not used to spawn your wifes affair, no logic was used to maintain it, no logic was used to end it.

Affairs exist in a fantasy state....noticeably devoid of logic.

Sure, WS THINK they are using their logic, that they are in control....the first lie they tell in their affair is to themselves.

I think what Mrs. Sisoon is experiencing is courage and wisdom to keep on digging into herself and see who she really was and what she was really and truly capable of doing...and why she was doing it. This is painful for sisoon, but is painful for mrs. sisoon too.

I have seen Sisoon have this same courage and committment...it bodes well for them and is one of the main reasons he is one of my "go-to" guys on SI.

Truth is sometimes hard to find and face. In Mrs. Sisoon's case it has taken years and countless "smaller-efforts" along the way I am sure.


As you already stated Crushed15Feb13...the truth is far less painful then the lies and lack-of-truth. Lies are quick and easy....affairs are built on lies....and develop and exist very quickly and very easily. My wife was having full on unprotected sex within 3 months of the first time she just said Hi to her AP. Turning away from him and facing the truths was much harder....actually took longer for my wife to turn away from him and find some real truths within her then the entire 4 month lenght of her A!


I pray regularly. One of my general prayers is that all WS find the courage to truthfully look at themselves and be radically honest with their spouses and anyone who is intent on helping them through this trial.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 11:28 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3962 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

duplicate

[This message edited by blakesteele at 11:19 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3962 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Closing the loop w/answers to Qs

do you think there was a part of you that really liked the idea that your wife was somehow taken advantage of? That she was somehow a non-willing partner?

That was true for a week or 2, but no more than that. Then I accepted that my W was fully responsible for the A, without question.

If so, do you think you may have intentionally stopped your "investigation" of this when you found the answers you wanted...not the truth?

Nope. I'm really good at not dodging unpleasant truths,and I didn't dodge it on this. I dug deep. My general approach is to get the bad news as quickly and completely as possible, because that, I believe, makes it easier to avoid following false trails in recovery.

For lots of reasons, it's extremely unlikely she shaded - or shades - her answers.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10345 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Crushed15Feb13
♂ Member
Member # 38846
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest to God....I can think of no other pain that is at this level that one spouse can inflict on the other. I have read tens of books....all cite this as one of the top traumas a M can experience and a BS can be put through.

Quoted for truth.

It really knocked the wind out of me, and it feel permanent. I just had no clue, and only vague suspicion that she quickly denied. I had no reason not to believe her.

I really have little or no faith in anything any more. But I still have hope.


Me: BH, 54
Her: WW, 54 4 yr LTA
Married 31 yrs, 2 college age boys
DDay #1: 15Feb13 - LTA 2008-2013
DDay #2: 27Jan14 - ONS, same AP 2007 - turns out it was a 5 yr LTA
Trying to understand

Posts: 250 | Registered: Mar 2013
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nope. I'm really good at not dodging unpleasant truths,and I didn't dodge it on this.

Yeah, I figured this was your answer sisoon and have seen this in you....because you have helped me when I tried to dodge the truths of my situation and dodge things.

Just thought it worth asking.

Peace.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3962 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

crushed,

I know thinking your W was manipulated into the A seems to be not quite so bad as if she were the aggressor, but I think that line of questioning is a red herring.

Nothing makes the A go away; you've got to deal with it no matter how it started.

And no matter what happened in the A, you still have to deal with and let go of the anger, grief, and fear that comes with being betrayed.

I urge you to focus on your own healing until you get some bearings back. Forget about your W. Forget about om. Focus on your healing.

The quicker you release your pain, the quicker you'll know what you want, if it's possible, and how to get it.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10345 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Crushed15Feb13
♂ Member
Member # 38846
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sissoon,

Thank you for your thoughts. I know you are among those who are respected here for their wisdom. What do you suggest? IC?

They say time heals but I think its too slow! I think I may also just be getting agitated becuase the anniv of Dday is getting close.

Regarding IC, I have been to a few. I know people say you have to shop around and stick with one you like, but how do you judge?


Me: BH, 54
Her: WW, 54 4 yr LTA
Married 31 yrs, 2 college age boys
DDay #1: 15Feb13 - LTA 2008-2013
DDay #2: 27Jan14 - ONS, same AP 2007 - turns out it was a 5 yr LTA
Trying to understand

Posts: 250 | Registered: Mar 2013
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We dealt with the issue of ideal sex partner shortly after D-Day, and I thought it was resolved, but the new info really makes it a question again. I need to talk with her some more about this.

I know this has to be really hard for you, and I'm proud of you that at this far out your are processing this information with as much peace as you can.

I'm guessing that this is all going to be a little DDay triggery, so I just want to remind you that sometimes when we dip back into those feelings it's hard and scary, but they tend to resolve faster.

I was thinking about the statement "ideal sex partner" and what kind of answer might bring someone peace. If Crazz asked me, I wouldn't have an answer. For me, the whole sex thing is really multi-faceted (hell, complicated.) I don't think I really have a gender preference, but I have a Crazz preference when it comes to physical attractiveness. Sex for me is just plain different with different people, and I think it's up to partners in a relationship to make it as "ideal" for each other as possible. Of course the chemistry has to be there, but I think that not unlike her new discoveries about her outlook, there is a new way to look at sex between the two of you that can mold it into the ideal.

Hopefully that makes sense. I'm here for you, classmate. Keep us posted on how you're feeling.

(((sisoon)))


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17801 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
ILINIA
♀ Member
Member # 39836
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This addresses more of the initial post. I am not as far along as you, but I recently had this happen.

First, it reminds me of Not Just Friends where it says something along the lines of "the betrayed will keep asking questions until it makes sense in their head." There are so many things to tackle with an A. Once I resolved a piece of the A in my head, I would pack it away and close the door and move on to another to process. I picture this closet with all these shoe boxes neatly packed. I feel good about being able to come to terms with them and organize them so nicely.

Then WH processes something or makes a realization about something I have already packed away. I don't want to open the closet much less take out that box and toss its contents back on the table. I don't want to open those specific feelings again and hear how WH feels now about the contents. In my mind they are resolved and I am past it.

I know WH needs to process, but when you are ahead of them or they continue to have realizations, it is hard for us to keep the closet organized much less stay sane. I do think it is healthy for them, therefore, so I feel like they have to do it, but my brain is saying "Stop! No more."

I am impressed how you handled it. I freaked a bit.


Entering R slowly and cautiously...

Posts: 491 | Registered: Jul 2013
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, January 17th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1) Crushed, I'm biased toward IC. I think your question about evaluating ICs is of general interest, and I'd be a lot more comfortable if you initiated a thread on the Q - you'll get much fuller and probably less-biased view that way.

2) Jrazz, I guess the question should be more like, 'Since I require monogamy, am I good enough to keep you satisfied until one of us dies?' But that's a scary Q - what if the answer is 'No'?

For the record, my W has, since D-Day, always expressed satisfaction over being exclusively with me, and she was surprised that I thought her new insight opened the Q up again. (She was also surprised she didn't realize it would open the Q again.) This isn't coming up because of any spidey-sense - it's just my amygdala-based fear.

3) ILINIA, Yup, the journey is awful. Keep breathing, and keep telling yourself the truth that you can do this, and that it gets easier as you go on. If this had hit when I was a year out, this thread would have turned your monitor red with my pain.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10345 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Topic Posts: 33
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