We met at our house. My friend went with me but stayed in the car. I was worried that if I brought her in he may not be as truthful as he would be if it were just the two of us (even though clearly he has no problem lying...)
I basically told him to tell me the entire story, sparing no details. I figured it would be best to just get it all out there. He said this was his first "indiscretion". His word, not mine. That while it was his first affair, but not the first time he'd slept with this woman. He also said that while she was the only other person he'd been fucking, he had no romantic feelings for her. He said that he didn't even consider her a friend, that she was not the type of person he'd want to date. That he didn't care to be around her longer than it would take to screw her. Basically, she was a good fuck and a "distraction".
I asked him what was so wrong in our relationship that he felt this was okay. Again, he said that since I started building my own career that it's been really hard finding time together. He also said again that sex had gotten boring between us.
I got mad at this point. Really mad. I was screaming at him, demanding to know why he didn't talk to me about it. I said that if he wasnt happy, then we should be able to fucking discuss it like grown-ass adults and figure out how to make it better. And then he said, and this statment made me see red, I swear to god, that "he didn't want to hurt my feelings by telling me he wasn't satisfied."
Aw, thanks hun. Thanks for thinking of me. Thanks for taking one for the team and screwing some other woman instead of talking to me about our issues. Thanks a heap. It all makes sense now, I'm sorry I got so mad!
Anyway, I went to pack more of my things to take to my friend's place, and he got up to follow me. He was in tears. He kept saying how sorry he was, how he'd never do it again, and all that. Begged me to come home. He said that after I left on D-Day he emailed her saying that he was done with her. He also said he wanted to try counseling and was researching a few therapists.
I told him to let me think about it, and I will. I have no idea if we can fix this. I wonder if it makes me naive to try.
He asked if I agreed to try R, if that meant I'd come live at home again. I said possibly, but if that happens we are switching bedrooms and we are setting the bed he fucked her on on fire. I will never touch that thing again.
I cannot believe this shit is actually happening.
His job demands long hours and it hasn't been a problem until recently
His career is demanding, but since you started a full time job it is all your fault? Huh, doesn't he need to take some responsibility to find time together?
He said that he didn't even consider her a friend, that she was not the type of person he'd want to date. That he didn't care to be around her longer than it would take to screw her. Basically, she was a good fuck and a "distraction"
Yet at the party, he ignored you and spent time with her. Not only that he left that party to meet up with her at YOUR home. He is lying straight up to your face.
Your working doesn't make you the cause of his brokenness. I am sure when you worked part-time and he was working those long hours you were lonely and missed him, but you didn't find someone else.
As for your sex life, hey he was a partner, what was he doing to spice things up. Why did he think it was your responsibility to keep things fresh and exciting. Seems he thinks you need to do all the accommodating in your M. He needs re-training.
"Global editing disclaimer - I edit almost everything I post, and I am not going to post why every time."...re: Bionical girl
Yet at the party, he ignored you and spent time with her. Not only that he left that party to meet up with her at YOUR home. He is lying straight up to your face.
Did he actually offer to show you the e-mail he sent her? Personally whether he did or not, if I were you for me to even consider R with him there are a few things he would have to do first to show his commitment to it.
I would ask him to send her a no contact letter immediately, blunt, to the point, letting her know that there will be no more contact between them ever...the note written and witnessed by you (I'd prefer a hand written one so there were no doubts about who this is from) and delivered to her in a way you have proof of. (I'd even let him do it on speakerphone if I were seriously considering R with him - although I know others don't like that idea) But if he baulks at doing either the letter or call then you have your answer to how he really sees her.
Also what about work. How closely does he work with her? Can he transfer to get away from her? Would he do this for a chance of R with you? How serious is he?
HurtHarlequin, I'd tell him he's got to produce more than some words and tears for you to consider moving back home. He's got to show in actions not words how much he wants this - for you to even consider it.
I have just caught up on your story. So sorry you have to be here.
Goodness sweetie. You are being so strong. I like your style. Stay strong. Someone on here once said "You have to be prepared to lose your marriage to save it". Your husband seems to be starting to realise he has risked losing the greatest gift any man could hope for - a faithful wife. He has indicated that the OW meant nothing to him. Now he has to face reality - losing you.
Do not waver sweetie. Demand your rights. He needs to be remorseful. Total honesty. Total disclosure. Now. Forever.
You have been given some great advice here and I have little to add.
Just wanted to wish you well.
Of course, it's normal to be this unsure. Why wouldn't you be unsure about staying or going? You thought that you had a secure and loving relationship with a man who was as totally committed to you as you were. And then you walked in to see him screwing OW in YOUR bed! In the space of seconds, the world that you knew was ripped from you and you were set adrift in space, trying to find something, anything solid to hold on to. And when you thought that he might reach out a hand to anchor you, he blamed YOU for HIS stress, HIS boredom of sex between the two of you, and instead of trying to address his issues/concerns with you, like a real live adult man, he was sooooo afraid of hurting your feelings that he decided having a fuck-buddy would be the humane and caring way to take care of his issues.
What part of any of the above is conducive to you being sure that you want to be anywhere near this bonehead? Frankly a pet piranha sounds like a safer companion!
What is it that you want, to even consider giving it a try with him? If you need to divest yourself of that house, that's legitimate. He contaminated it for you and if you can't figure out how to de-toxify it, then another place to live is part of Actions, Meet Consequences. He's going to IC, good, but what about you? Are you talking with someone? Does he work with OW? Does he need to change jobs for you to be comfortable risking being with him? Do you want to try to go to MC to see if that can help?
You need to try to figure out what YOU need from him, to make you even want to give R a try. Always remembering that you don't really have to make a decision right now. You can wait until you are ready to commit to a path. (((hugs)))
D-Day, June 10, 2012
So sorry to read about your situation. I'm sorry you're here. But you are in the right place. We can help.
I noticed you don't have any kids. This certainly makes things easier in case WH doesn't keep up NC. I also see that he agreed to send a NC letter.
Here are some suggestions that you should do right away:
1) Get tested for STDs. He needs to do this as well and provide you with written results
2) Expose the OW. Does she have a H, BF or other close friends that you know? If so definitely expose. Don't warn your WH, just do it. Once exposed it will keep her away from your WH.
If you decide to R, here are a few other things that I suggest to get your ducks in a row:
3) He needs to turn over passwords to everything (emails, social media, phones, etc). You can monitor them at anytime.
4) Turn on the GPS feature on his phone. There are some spyware programs for teens that can text or email you if he goes outside of a certain area.
5) Install spyware on his phone to see who he is texting and emailing
6) Buy a copy of Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley. Both of you should read it.
Anyway we burnt the bed and sofa. Its heartwrenching when they bring the A into the marital home and bed... moving is a very good idea.
Your fWH is blaming you and revising your marriage to suit his needs for justification. Refuse to accept that when he does this and tell him he has to dig deeper.
If you decide to R there are some books you may find useful. Your H should read How to help your spouse heal from your affair. He has a lot of work ahead of him.. I remember how shocked and traumatized I was and you will get thru this.
I was a basket case for about 11 months but am better now but only because my fWH stopped making excuses and took full responsibility answered my questions and was truly deeply remorseful. Disccussing his feelings later on helped him in ways I never imagined. Like how it felt when I found out, how it felt to finally be rid of OW etc.
I never caught them but wished I had. Instead OW sent me texts pics and emails to tell me. And she left things in my home for me to find which was very very traumatic.
Time will help you get thru this whatever direction you decide.
[This message edited by whattheh at 5:20 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]
I am really sorry to read your story. So many people have offered great advice here and I don't really have anything to add by way of suggestions.
I would only say that your husband's decision to betray you in your very own bed is an especially troublesome indicator of his character and pathology. A spouse who commits adultery in his/her very own bed does so intentionally, deriving an additional erotic thrill from profaning literally what adultery always profanes figuratively.
It's so flagrantly hostile, and suggests a genuine contempt for you, rather than just the usual emotional ambivalence a WS often feels during an affair for the BS.
Most Wayward Husbands have sexual affairs for ego-gratification purposes. But choosing to have sex in your bed suggests part of his gratification comes from your secret humiliation.
Proceed very cautiously.
ďNo, Lord,Ē she said.
And Jesus said, ďNeither do I. Go and sin no more.Ē
The fact that he brought her into the house and our bed is one of the worst things about this situation. The more I think about it, the more I agree that this action was him being willfully cruel. And that just fucking stings.
I'm starting IC next week. Well, actually continuing, since I've worked with this therapist before, just with different issues.
Do any of you think it's worth it to even attempt to reconcile? I still love him (wish I didn't), but I'm terrified that trying to work things out will just end in more deception down the line. I didn't even see this one coming.
I still believe in R as a worthy goal, but realize now that in some circumstances it really shouldn't be rushed. Even though it's what you want, because you still love him (I so get that!), it really takes him being capable of doing it for there to be a chance. And I don't think you can gauge that right now. So, 180 (or file if you like), and watch his actions. Does that make sense? It is a big risk and commitment. You should only take that step on well-founded reasons, not on the hope you want to hold onto. Keep up IC. Don't worry about being naive for wanting to try, which I think most of us can relate to, but don't ACT naively. Wait for more certainty.
I do hope he steps up for you. But, no matter what, you will be okay. You are so strong.
[This message edited by norabird at 9:50 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]
I agree with Hosea that the disrespect he showed you at the party by choosing to be with OW rather than you in your very presence, and then taking OW into your home and into your bed after doing that to you needs to be explored in IC and explained to you in depth. He wasn't panicked into ignoring OW when you two were in the same room instead he actually made the choice to spend his time with her, with them both knowing that you were being ignored and in the dark about what was going on.
He then chose to take her back to your house. To me that speaks of contempt and a desire to hurt you that he's not yet admitting to, or that he was trying to prove to OW by those actions that she meant more to him than you did, or at the very least, show her that you just weren't that important to him. I don't know which of those it was but I do think that sequence of events was not random and didn't 'just happen' and he needs to explain those choices. If he can't explain it right now then he must work on it in IC and tell you after he's worked on it, but I would not let that go without a deep explanation of his motives (at the time) for doing it.
So far, he's trying to gloss those choices over and it's too big an issue for that to happen. Him explaining that choice and what it meant at the time would be the biggest requirement for R if I were you. His willingness to work on that and tell you the truth of it would definitely show how hard he's going to be prepared to work on any R you may offer him.
That he wrote the NC letter and sent it in your presence is promising though, but still not a guarantee that the affair (or a continued friendship) is over, because if he is still working with her he had the chance to let her know it may be coming and was something 'his wife' made him do. However, that he phoned the HR in your presence and got himself into counselling too are more promising indicators that he is serious about wanting you back.
If I were you I would lay down some requirements that are non negotiable if he wants R. First he must go and have STD tests done. Regardless of whether he tells you they used protection if he wants to ever be intimate with you again he needs to get these tests done. He has to do what it takes to 'make' that work transfer happen or put in his notice at work. Working with OW is not going to be acceptable if you give him the chance of R... full stop. I think you need to make that one plain to him. Those are the consequences of his actions.
Next, I'd decide about the house and bed. The bed has to go - that would be non negotiable. Burn it in the garden, take it to the dump - whatever - but it would have to go. The house? Well that's up to you. If you feel that you could never live in it again then it needs to go and he has to put it up for sale immediately. Once again that is a consequence of his own choice to bring OW into it. He needs to understand the seriousness of the choice he made to do that.
If he actually did all those things and I were you and still loved him - then I'd consider giving him the chance to R. But HurtHarlequin in my opinion he has got to put his actions behind his words at this point if he wants you to start believing in him again. If he refuses any of these things, then to me, he's not going to be worth the risk you'd have to take to R with him.
Also, if OW does have a significant other I think he should be told because he's in the same position now that you were in at the party. He's already been cheated on and lied to but doesn't yet know it. I'd tell him just because it is his right to know but the bonus of that too is that if the affair is still underground or your husband and OW are trying to remain 'friends' with each other then telling any significant other of OW's would probably blow that 'friendship' right out of the water. It will be an extra set of eyes watching them and requiring NC between them.
Finally HurtHarlequin, I think you have been amazing so far in not letting him rugsweep this. Keep being strong for just a little while longer and you will get to see how serious he is which in turn will help you decide what is the best course for you going forward.
That being said its not uncommon for cheaters to use their own homes and marital bed. Some do it for convenience though. But some do it for spite and some because they want to get caught.
You also need to understand that a cheater's mindset has often changed when they're in the act of cheating. So they distance themselves from their faithful spouse and the marriage and the home. They no longer see the house and bed as a special place for your M. Many do this by compartmentalization.
Two other books you may find useful are After the Affair and How Can I forgive You by Janice Spring.
R is possible depending on your WS actions and sincerity but you don't have to decide that now. We all have different things we can accept and move on from. Its okay whichever way you ultimately decide.
I didn't ask my fWH to leave and I didn't leave after dDay. Some people need separation and some need to have the cheater close by as the healing process begins. I felt it was extremely important that my fWH bear witness to my pain. I held nothing back. But thats how I needed to handle it. It also allowed him the chance to take care of me and make amends which has been beneficial for our R.
So yes R is possible if thats what you both want from the bottom of your heart.
Make sure you get tested for STDs and he does too. Some like hpv, herpes and hepatitus b are transmitted with or without condoms. And if oral was done then stds are transmitted that way too. I got hpv and herpes. Also you should be concerned about potential pregnancy and explore that possibility with fWH. Many OW have been known to purposefully get pregnant to entrap MM (back to what were her motives and feelings toward your fWH).
Take care of yourself. You will get thru this.
[This message edited by whattheh at 10:29 AM, February 14th (Friday)]
I'm a new member of this club and what I've learned over the past few weeks is to listen closely to those with experience. Sometimes they say things you haven't considered or won't even let yourself consider, but they are often spot on. It's amazing how A's and their aftermath have a certain pattern to them. Understanding what happened and how things got to this point is a painfully slow process and you need time to peel back the layers. Be gentle with yourself. Try not to judge yourself, even if you are shocked by some of your behaviors. I certainly never imagined I would try to make it work if I ever caught my H in an A, but here I am. It is worthwhile provided your H starts to do the hard work in figuring out what led to the A and how he can take steps to win you back and fix himself. That takes lots of time (ugh, time).
Another book to consider: How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair.
Maybe someday the relationship can be reconciled if your WH fixes himself enough to be an equal partner in a loving relationship..If I were you I wouldn't remarry this man though..
One of the main reasons I stayed in the M 27 years ago after D-Day # 1 was because we had a new baby and I thought there was a chance to work on the marriage / raise our kiddo together versus me alone..
Fast forward to D -Day # 2 with a remorseless WH, I don't have the luxury of leaving this 38 year marriage without getting some ducks in a row and having certain things happen first..
Work on protecting yourself and find a means / tools to KEEP yourself protected for the rest of your life..
Get in a position where nobody, and I mean NOBODY/no man's infidelity can turn your WHOLE life upside down ..
It is bad enough to be emotionally decimated by somebody, but it is even worse if this person drags you down to the point where you have to rebuild your whole life and livelihood...
[This message edited by doggiediva at 11:28 AM, February 14th (Friday)]
ē Full access to all phones/computers/iPads, planners, etc.
ē IC and MC at least once a week. If there is a book that either counselor thinks will be helpful, he must read it.
ē Tell someone to be accountable to. Since Iím feeling productive, I went ahead and did it for him. I told his sister and mother (I adore his parents and sisters, they are livid over this. They arenít letting him off the hook.), and my sister. I sent an email to the OWís boyfriend. I had to do some facebook creeping to find the address. Iím not sure how serious their relationship is, so I donít know how much good itíll do. But her boss and supervisor know, so thereís that. No response from BF yet.
ē NC unless it is about MC, or a family/medical emergency. I initiate all other contact.
ē We will stay separated for now, butÖ
ē ÖIíve installed software on our computers/laptops that retrieves deleted files/info, and a gps tracker on his car. If he continues to associate with that bitch while he claims to want R is an immediate deal breaker.
ē NC with OW, obviously. His hours and department got shuffled around a bit and luckily he wonít see much of her. I expect him to report any unavoidable work interactions or attempts by her to contact him. He says he will, butÖ weíll see.
ē We will remain separated, at least for now. Iíve gotten a lawyer and we are talking about the situation. Basically, Iím setting a date by which we must have made some significant progress, and if we donít, then Iíll file for divorce.
ē If by that date we are making meaningful progress, we can resume living together, but in a new house or apartment. We may use some stuff from our contaminated house, but a complete overhaul in our bedroom is non-negotiable. Thinking of our bedroom and what I saw there makes me want to hurl.
**And just so you know, the computer software and gps--- I didnít tell him I was doing it. I went to the house while he was working and set it up. Mr. Harlequin is kind of technologically illiterate. Bless.
What do you think? Are these rules reasonable? A tiny part of my brain thinks itís harsh, but then the bigger part says that I can never get to a point where I feel safe to attempt R without them. And then I remember the how harsh the discovery/confrontation was and I stop giving that much of a fuck.
When I laid these rules out, he whined for a minute about telling someone for the purpose of accountability, but when I told him it was non-negotiable he agreed. Iím feeling a little bit stronger, but I hope Iím doing the right thing here. This is his last chance. I canít go through this again.
He's either all in on trying, without a guarantee of success, to convince you that it's worth your while to stay and that you'll be safe in the marriage, or he's out. No inbetween.
The list of demands sounds great. GOOD FOR YOU!!!!
A few other suggestions:
- He needs to write out a timeline of the A. As many details as possible, dates,times, etc. Cross check these with other secondary sources (cell phone records, credit card statements, etc)
- Insist upon a polygraph. Start researching it. However even before the polygraph occurs he may start divulging other new 'secrets'
- Have you thought about a post-nuptial agreement?
His hours and department got shuffled around a bit and luckily he wonít see much of her. I expect him to report any unavoidable work interactions or attempts by her to contact him.
WTF? I didn't realize that they both work together. I would insist upon him looking for another job, IMMEDIATELY! There is no way the NC will persist over time if they are working together.