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User Topic: What happens?
HUFI-PUFI
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aubrie - Maybe I'm crazy. I just don't know anymore.

Stop. Breathe. Repeat.

Aubrie...Life can be so overwhelming. Decisions. Feelings. Choices. What to do. When to do it. The list goes on.

BUT

The overwhelming part comes when we feel,in our hearts, souls and gut that we have no control. That we may make mistakes. When we fear the outcome. That's understandable, especially for the WS who has the ugliness of their affair staring them in the eyes, reflecting the mistakes and decisions of the past, making them second guess everything that they say and do.

May I make a suggestion that you take a nice leisurely walk to the local bookstore and get the book, 10-10-10 by Susy Welch. Take it home. Read it when you get the chance. No rush. If the process she writes about makes sense, then do it. It does work. Its as good as any other technique out there to base your decisions on. And if that doesn't make sense, then try the flipping coin technique.

Life changing actions should be conscious decisions and not emotional choices. Emotional choices are driven by fear. As Glen Cook says, not only fear but most other emotions are mind killers. We do stupid things when we let emotions take over. Then we are forced to endure the consequences for the rest of our days.


HUFI

Don’t listen to your head, it’s easily confused, don’t listen to your heart, its fickle, listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.



Don’t listen to your head, it’s easily confused. Don’t listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3251 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm curious, Aubrie: if QS said to you today, point blank, "This is how I am. I'm fine with it. I don't plan on changing in the foreseeable future."


... how would you feel?


I refuse to let a wound ruin me.
**Guts over fear.**

Posts: 2070 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
sunnyrain
♀ Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 12:44 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think slowing down is a good idea. To me, it almost seems like you are running a race to heal, or recover, and then wondering why your spouse is not moving/healing as quickly as you are moving.

Not all humans move at the same pace or go about reaching the final destination in the same way. Some like to focus on one thing at a time. You seem to focus on several topics at once. No right or wrong-- just different approaches.

Why the rush?

Btw, I found the letters you wrote to your parents to be the beginning of your healing with them. I'm wondering if you see the letters as the beginning of a new journey with them ... or if you see the letters as more of a closing the door and being done with them? Did you feel in a hurry to finish those letters? Are those letters finished?

Are you in a hurry to be finished with your own personal healing? What do you fear would happen if you slowed down a little? Do you believe in golden standards? Are you trying to reach the golden standard in healing from infidelity? Is there such a thing?

Btw, I don't expect you to answer all these questions... I like to think out loud.

The hearts on the mirror are lovely. Keep going.


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 377 | Registered: Nov 2010
abbycadabby
♀ Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How can you, personally, fix his issues?

Look. I have as many issues as the day is long. I made some pretty shit choices in my marriage. Never had an A, but I wasn't healthy.

I tried to R but at that point I was in survival mode.

At 2 years out, had I had a remorseful spouse, I feel like we'd be working on my issues by now, if not already. I imagine we'd be both in IC and MC and I imagine we'd be working through all my issues AFTER I could tread water again.

The point is, I know I made shit choices. I know I was a terrible wife at times. I own that. I've learned from that, and even though I'm D now I try to carry those lessons forward in my relationship with SO. I've changed a lot about myself and my issues.

I think the question you're asking is better phrased this way:

"how long do I continue to stick around if my spouse is seemingly unwilling to work on his issues?"

Combined with this:

"how can I be vulnerable with someone who seems unwilling to be vulnerable in return?"

These questions don't even address taking into account the compounding issue of the A and the layers of emotion that adds on.

I have these same fears. I fear vulnerability. I've had enough hurts in my past that it borderline paralyzes me to think about giving myself totally and completely over to someone else without a damn near ironclad guarantee I won't get hurt again. My SO knows this. And God help him, he wants to try anyway. He knows my past. Knows my fears. Sees my ugly.

And guess what? He still hurts me. It's what humans do. I hurt him too.

The reward is so much sweeter than the risk.

My IC recommended finding videos by Brene Brown (I think on youtube) about vulnerability. I highly recommend that.

In the meantime, if you love him, keep on truckin' and look at your signature.

You're courageous everytime you stick a note on that mirror, girlfriend. Only you know when you can't be courageous anymore.

(((Aubrie)))

*emphasis on seemingly and seems because I know you're not trying to say QS is rigidly incapable or unwilling to change but based on prior experience and history it seems that way.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 1:02 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1249 | Registered: Feb 2010
DixieD
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Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I could be way off base here but this is what I'm wondering.

Having a BS who says they forgive immediately and that things are ok and moving on would be awesome for a WS.

-- Being the type of BS I am, I can't personally imagine that and I question if it's really possible from a healthy standpoint to begin with.....but that's beside the point.

Naturally with that, you've thought you are on the 2 Year or less Plan when the majority of people here are on the 5 Year Plan and struggling.

When in reality, having a BS who is not addressing things and burying stuff could actually put you on a Long-Term Plan perspective, IMO. That's gotta mess with your head. 

You've been under the impression that you are on one track when really it's another. You've done enough work on yourself now -- and this is a good thing and very admirable and the only thing that has kept this train moving ahead -- to start to see that things are not moving ahead as they 'should' be. 

The relationship is suppose to be further ahead than it is now because you were told/convinced that it would be. And let's face it, if you'd been a rug-sweeper, it would be. Things would be better.than.evar. But you aren't a rug-sweeper.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but I sensing some fear and panic that seems understandable.

The hearts on the mirror are awesome.


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Aubrie
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Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm curious, Aubrie: if QS said to you today, point blank, "This is how I am. I'm fine with it. I don't plan on changing in the foreseeable future."

... how would you feel?


Well fuck, after dropping serious inhibitions and trying new TMI things with him, then 4 hours later hearing he has a crush on a friend, then him watching workout clips on social media in a 2-3 hour sitting, then him telling me that he prefers hard-bodies, (but he loves me either way. Pshhh, don't do me any favors. I don't need pity) then rejecting me sexually (after I dropped inhibitions for him and his hardbody announcement) and him resenting me cause I got sick (cause I can totally help that) and telling me I'm abusive cause we got into a spat over flipping peanut butter, I guess you could say after all that, for him to announce he's just swell just the way he is and he's not going to change, I'd feel pretty rejected and betrayed.

How about you FP? If you're doing everything humanly possible to heal yourself and the fucking relationship and all that crap comes out of left frickin' field, how could you not feel scared, and hurt, and damaged? And after the layers are forcibly peeled back, it's his own insecurities and hurts that have been projected on me, yet somehow I'm magically supposed to know what's going thru his mind, and not take it personally, and to fix his broken, eventho 9 times out of 10 he doesn't acknowledge his issues, how exactly am I supposed to just freaking bounce back and be totally chill about it?

So there you have it. Everyone is thinking I'm 2 seconds away from bailing ship. Not the case.

But when you're dealing with all that, his stupid crush is freakin' fine as frog hair and there is NO way I can physically match up, THEN he announces he likes hard bodies, it's more than just a little hard and more than just a little hurtful to be posting, "I love that your kisses are the very first thing and the very last thing I do every day" and "I love the way you run your fingers thru my hair when we're watching a movie". on the bathroom mirror every morning. It's hard. Because I start to doubt myself. Because I can't trust that he's really on freakin' board with me 100%. I'm taking a chance. And I don't know where it's going to take me. And I'm putting myself out on a limb and feel that the tree trunk is on fire.

Do I know that the stupid crush has nothing to do with me? Deep down, yes. But coupled with all the other events, it's next to impossible to not compare myself. I'm a recovering insecure-aholic. Not healed. Still recovering.

I'm still working on my letters to my parents. I'm still processing all that junk. I'm still dealing with the hurt and betrayal from that. I'm still reeling after they announce that a family member is dying. And they knew that they've been dying the past 5 months, but ya know, nobody tells me cause I'm some witch from hell that has a bad attitude and is mistreating their mother.

I deal with it quietly. Why? Because QS has this magical ability to quickly deal with a situation, put it in a fancy flash little box, and put it on the shelf of History. No he isn't pushing me to deal with it quick, fast, and in a hurry. He stated that he is supportive. But I have caught his short or curt replies. It sends the message he's tired of dealing with it. He's tired of hearing about it. Because I know how he processes things, and because I'm more obsessive about things. I don't exactly feel safe enough to let it all hang out day in and day out till I'm completely done processing.

I'm dealing with it. Him. Them. Me. All of it. I'm generally pretty flipping epic at multitasking. But this is dang hard. Hardest thing I've ever done. So yes, I'm cracking. I'm losing my crap. Have I dropped any of the balls up in the air? No. I'm still juggling. The best I can. It's all I can do.

I have no clue if there is some impossible perfect FWS standard. If there is, I'm failing miserably. I'm doing the best I can. At the end of the day, my best may not be enough for him. Or anyone else. But all I can do is try. For me. And those who are affected by me in my every day life. And it scares the life and soul out of me.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 1:55 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6227 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Wayflost
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Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((Aubrie))

I agree, take a deep breath. We are all here pulling for you too.


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 391 | Registered: Dec 2013
SandAway
♀ Member
Member # 37775
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why did he tell you he has a crush on a friend? How did that come about? Were his comments said to hurt you? Is this a friend of yours or his from outside the M?


fWW
BH Tred
M 16yrs
DDay Nov. 2011

Guns don't kill people; Affairs kill people


Posts: 433 | Registered: Dec 2012
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well fuck, after dropping serious inhibitions and trying new TMI things with him, then 4 hours later hearing he has a crush on a friend, then him watching workout clips on social media in a 2-3 hour sitting, then him telling me that he prefers hard-bodies, (but he loves me either way. Pshhh, don't do me any favors. I don't need pity) then rejecting me sexually (after I dropped inhibitions for him and his hardbody announcement) and him resenting me cause I got sick (cause I can totally help that) and telling me I'm abusive cause we got into a spat over flipping peanut butter, I guess you could say after all that, for him to announce he's just swell just the way he is and he's not going to change, I'd feel pretty rejected and betrayed.
I don't know what to tell you, Aubrie. I don't know you or QS well enough to determine a ton about your situation, especially in this particular situation, because there's a ton going on here that you seem really upset by and that is hard to sort out cia the internets. The reason I said what I said was that I was unsure of what kind of 'issues' QS has that he was 'refusing to work through'.

I have seen a great many WS identify things about their BS that they don't like and would like changed...traits that, while somewhat annoying, sound like regular guy/girl squabble traits to me...but then after the affair all this stuff that the WS didn't like about the BS is now supposed to change because it'd brought up under the guise of 'pre-A issues'. I was curious about your situation because I think the particulars are sort of relevant/important to the discussion. I didn't want to pry, but there is a world of difference between 'QS spends too much time on hobbies' and 'QS spends 3 hours watching chicks workout on YouTube', KWIM? Your original post made it sort of hard to parse out how 'bad' (for lack of a better word) his pre-A issues are.

The watching of the social media workouts for 2-3 hours is weird and obsessive, to me. Some of the other stuff, though, sounds like he was being honest with you, and that you didn't like how his honesty made you feel. Maybe he DOES prefer hard bodies, but still thinks you're fine the way you are. The ideas are not mutually exclusive. If he has a crush on your friend, while it's not the best thing ever, he came forward and shared it with you. He has the right to turn down sex if he feels the need to do so, regardless of whether you're going to feel rejected or not. One of the signs of healthy boundaries is being sexual for self, not for others.

I don't think anyone here can tell you anything you don't already know, re: his behaviors.

You know that you didn't cause them, you can't control them, and you can't cure them.

His action, reactions, and failings don't say anything about you as a person.

The only thing you can control is your own actions, thoughts, feelings, and responses.

Good luck.


I refuse to let a wound ruin me.
**Guts over fear.**

Posts: 2070 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Aubrie
♀ Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So here's the drill. Everything comes to a head and there is a small come-to-Jesus moment when I attempt to express my hurts, frustrations, fears, anxiety. Like all the garbage from the weekend.

What inevitably happens? He feels backed into a corner. And in starts the: "Noooobody loves me. Eeeeeeverybody hates me. I'm gonna eat worms and dieeeee." It's deflective in every way. So then instead of us focusing on the real issue (The crush, the 3 hours viewing, the physical attribute comments, the resentment, the rejection, and the passive-aggressive peanut butter crap) I'm trying to pat him on the head and tell him how he's loved and I'm doing everything I can to fight for us, and I'll work my fingers to the bone for him.

Somehow, the conversation turns. It goes from the real issue, to his boo-hoo guilt trip, and I'm suddenly the bad guy. And I'm not "understanding him" or his "problems". Which when I try to address he's all, "I don't have a problem". Hello? Am I crazy? What just happened here?

He's "reassured", he gets his ego jacked off, and I'm left with a pile of crap that still hasn't been worked thru. And I'm supposed to just let it all go. And if I don't, I'm obsessive. Or I'm not looking at it properly. Or I need to just get over myself. (Which is oddly familiar. My Dad does that to me too)

We don't argue or fight in a healthy way. There is no fighting. Because it turns into a shame spiral on his end. He doesn't take confrontation. Why? Because his FOO. With every disagreement, the bottom line he was trash, stupid, and worthless.

And lets not go into the fact that while his mother blamed him for everything wrong in their lives, she got drunk on Coke and rum and got knocked up. Her choice. Not QS's. Yet he carries this baggage and this sense of worthlessness. It's always been there. And it's worse post Dday. And I cannot get him out of it.

Any fight or disagreement sends him straight back to Cray-Cray FOO-land. No amount of reassurance will ever tell him he's good enough. That he is my life and breath. That he is the song in my heart. That I would take a bullet if it meant life to him. He can't hear that thru the screaming insecurities in himself.

I know that even though he smiles when he sees my hearts on the bathroom mirror, the belief in those sentiments is only fleeting. Because he doesn't believe it for himself.

Trust me, if I could absorb his hurt and take the fault for everything, I would do so in a heartbeat. But there is some stuff I just cannot absorb. Because it's not my battle. And there is literally nothing I can do. Nothing.

There are things about him I would love to change. We all have those irritations and quirks. I would LOVE that he doesn't eat apples in our room. The crunch drives me crazy. It's a pre-A condition. But it's not marriage ending. His workaholic tendencies crush me. It's a pre-A condition. I have had to learn to accept it about him. I deal with it. My children suffer, I suffer, but I'm learning to accept that as long as I'm married to him, I'll see him just a few minutes to an hour a day before he passes out in bed.

His worthlessness is a continuing trend that existed pre-A. Did I recognize it or know what the cycle was? No. Just like he didn't know what an EA was or what AP 1, 2, and 3 were. I learned these things post Dday. We both did.

I just don't know what to do with it. Or how to help. If I even can. Or how to deal with it if he doesn't.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 3:25 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6227 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
abbycadabby
♀ Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Somehow, the conversation turns. It goes from the real issue, to his boo-hoo guilt trip, and I'm suddenly the bad guy. And I'm not "understanding him" or his "problems". Which when I try to address he's all, "I don't have a problem". Hello? Am I crazy? What just happened here?

I hesitate to label this but it sounds like manipulation and crazymaking. I hope I'm hypersensitive to it because I've experienced it from my exH. He was super extreme about it at times, threatening to kill himself if I wanted to leave, etc.

And in starts the: "Noooobody loves me. Eeeeeeverybody hates me. I'm gonna eat worms and dieeeee." It's deflective in every way.

That is deflection. He sounds afraid to deal with strong emotion/afraid to be vulnerable maybe because he carries a sense of rejection from his FOO, which was perhaps reinforced by your As? Just a theory. But that's why I posed this question:

"how can I be vulnerable with someone who seems unwilling to be vulnerable in return?"


Posts: 1249 | Registered: Feb 2010
Joanh
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Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"
how can I be vulnerable with someone who seems unwilling to be vulnerable in return


Yep the fear of this, the protection, where we were before and so don't want to be again.

Sometimes when I look at my BH and I, I find our roles have reversed. He was the one that tried a few things he "gave me everything" yep issues there too. Now its me doing it. Trying so hard, but still knowing I may be holding back cause my BH may not really be healing. A lot of what you said about QS sounds very familiar around here..

I guess the one thing that stands out and I am trying is this, My sister got married this past weekend , 2nd marriage. and instead of gifts wanted inspirational quotes. Don't have much right now, however, I had a piece of thought I gave to her and him.

Be the first one to ask for the date, be the first one to share your feelings, be the first one to say I love you, be the first one to say your angry/hurt/scared/ashamed and don't expect it to be returned. Tell the other person what you want and know what you want.

In our case its our time to be vulnerable mine was, I am and was the only person he trusted to cry infront of to share his fears, he was once, now he's scared. I did that, now I am the one that has to open myself up to being hurt. I didn't before. Just remember, the growth you have done, and the strength you have learnt by cleaning out your closet and building up your self esteem and self worth, no matter what you will be okay.

Not sure any of that helps, I do hear you.


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 435 | Registered: Apr 2013
plainsong
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Member # 37826
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Long post – if any of this is off-base, please ignore

I am so sorry you and QS are going through this kind of pain. I want to start by emphasizing the positives that others have mentioned -– he does at least sometimes realize that his painful feelings are coming from his own issues, and he told you about the crush and his body type attraction instead of keeping it a secret.

Then I’m going to give you what may seem like the opposite advice to what some have said. While it is true that there is always more that you can give to a marriage, and maintaining a marriage is a lifelong task, the question is, WHAT is it that will be valuable to give at any given point. You have been active and loving and self-revealing for two years, and that has had tremendous positive effects for your healing and for QS and your marriage. However, it sounds like if you continue with the same actions now, without QS being able to respond more, that you will start to get resentful. You may be in danger of getting into a pursuer-pursued bind – the more active you are, the more pressured QS feels, and the less he has to deal with his issues himself.

I hear that you don’t want to give up and that you are NOT giving up. You may just need to try some entirely different approaches to get beyond your usual dynamics.

One book that offers suggestions for changing approaches that are not working is Divorce Busting, by Michele Weiner-Davis. She has a lot of creative ideas for ways to change the interactions in your marriage, and to honor and care for your own needs in the process. In particular, she has suggestions for when your styles are very different and when your partner is not actively participating in the repair effort. Another book that gives good explanations for the “opposites attract” phenomenon and positives that can come from working through conflicts and stuck places in a marriage is Getting the Love You Want, by Harville Hendrix. You should be able to get used copies of either of them cheap online.

I am hearing the great pain that QS is in as well. I wonder if, having been so accepting and supportive earlier in your process, he is now for the first time really getting to the anger stage that usually happens at the beginning. This may be like Dday for him, with the accompanying desire for revenge, or just the awareness that he can feel tempted by other attractions as well. Paradoxically, he may be able to feel his anger now just because you are doing so well and he knows that you are not depending on him to keep you afloat. Because he is, from what you describe, basically a kind and generous person, he may have put his anger on hold before. Also, as I know from my own experience with my AP, taking care of another person is a soothing distraction from facing and dealing with our own pain.

Workaholism is another way of self-medicating our pain. That was a coping technique that I used all my life. It works very well, but not permanently. Again, it is true that you may need to accept that his temperament will always make this the fall-back self-soothing mechanism for QS, but when it is being driven by old pain and old beliefs, and fear of the pain of intimacy, it will keep escalating like any addiction, and lead to collapse in the end. At some point QS will need to face his FOO issues and sense of worthlessness and hopelessness, for himself and for your marriage. The best way I know of to do that is with IC. You mentioned at one point that QS was not in favor of IC for you. I wonder if he feels the same way about IC for himself. The reason it is useful, as someone in another thread said recently, is that you can tell your IC ANYTHING, without dumping it unprocessed on your partner. I am not saying it is easy or pleasant. It is HELL, but at least it leads somewhere.

About either you or he wanting/wishing for you to be able to heal his shame issues, you are right that it just can’t be done. That is not to say that knowing that you love and admire him won’t help eventually, when he is also working on them himself, and with help from a therapist, someone else who is not part of his family system. It was not until my third year past Dday, with intense IC and MC for the whole time, that I am now able to sometimes actually EXPERIENCE that my husband loves me, accepts me, and wants to be with me. And this is after 47 years of his saying and demonstrating that as strongly as possible. So I would say, keep saying and showing how much you love QS, but don’t let your well being be destroyed by his inability to respond now. I can now draw on all those years of love and SEE his loving look, HEAR his loving voice and FEEL his loving touch in my previously impregnable core. All you say and do is being stored up inside QS, a treasure for him to draw on when he is ready.

As far as how much time you want to give him, there is no formula. My husband told me toward the beginning that if I couldn’t change my self-hate, at some point, he didn’t know when, he would have to separate, not to punish me but because it would not be healthy for him to live in that atmosphere indefinitely. If QS is really just starting processing now, he would need more time, but only you can decide how much is healthy for you and your children.

PS – My IC is constantly telling me to live in the present and not get into generating scary “what-if’s” about the future. You will be able to think through what you want to do about a possible separation later – in one year, two years, three years, five years, or whatever. For now, you just need to take care of yourself and start clarifying for yourself what you will eventually want from, and with QS.

All my best to both you and QS. I have faith that both of you have the desire and the ability to do what is needed to create the satisfying and heart-nourishing marriage you want.


Me,WW,69;
Him,BH,70 - Happy Birthday!
Dday,12/22/2010
I use capital letters for emphasis, not yelling!

Posts: 69 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Chicago area
CryingEyes
♀ Member
Member # 11826
Default  Posted: 8:21 PM, February 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it possible to NOT be hurt when you hear your spouse talk about a crush they are having or about hard-bodies? I'm also a recovering insecure-aholic, so my thinking may be way off. We all suffer from insecurities. I think it is natural to "hide" oneself when something like this happens. It hurts. I think all you can do is talk with QS on how it makes you feel, yet it seems if you do that, it runs into the boo-hoo guilt trip.

Are you needing validation from QS that he still finds you attractive? Has there been any reassurances given to you after finding out about the crush and the hard-bodies?

You have a TON of emotional stuff on your plate with dealing with the FOO stuff, let alone a crush, hard-bodies and being rejected. This just sucks!!!

You're getting healthy. Part of the process is learning to identify what is yours and what isn't. You've done a great job. To me there is another part of getting healthy. Learning that what you "think/feel" matters and has value. It can't be shoved off like it doesn't. It's great when your spouse supports you in your new found health, but what happens when that health hits up against some of the "old" behaviors that are not so healthy?

Wouldn't it be easier if you could fix this because I'm sure you would be all over that $hit working away to make it better. I'm giving you permission to not pick this up as yours to own. This isn't yours to fix.

And in starts the: "Noooobody loves me. Eeeeeeverybody hates me. I'm gonna eat worms and dieeeee."

This is deflecting. You don't have to accept this dynamic. You can change this. What I'm seeing is that you and QS have an established pattern with communication when the talk is about something that has happened between you and you are trying to express yourself. It seems that you both fall into Guilt/Shame when he pulls out the big guns of "Noooobody loves me. Eeeeeeverybody hates me. I'm gonna eat worms and dieeeee.".

What would happen if you simply said, "That is not true and it hurts me to hear you say that. I think/feel you are trying to change the topic of the conversation, and this is important to me. We can discuss what you have to say after we talk about this." Not easy to say especially when the patterns is established. Every time he starts to deflect the conversation from what you are talking about, you direct him back or end and come back when he is in a better place to hear what you have to say.

You cannot fill the black hole he has, and you know this. He has to do that, so the question is, why are you trying to? What is driving you to "fix" this for him? He knows what buttons to push in order to get the conversation off of him, and onto you.

Figure out how he is able to derail the conversation when he behaves in this manner. Is there someone in you FOO that uses the same tactic?


((((Aubrie))))


Life isn't about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself.

Posts: 1254 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: WA
TOMTEFAR
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Default  Posted: 3:10 AM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel for you Aubrie.

Have your H Always done things like this or is this new? Is he punishing you by doing this? Or is this the way he has Always been? I asume you have talked to your H about these things? How does those talks go? Are you comming of in a way wher he feels you are attacking him in those talks?

Also, just for some perspective:

But when you're dealing with all that, his stupid crush is freakin' fine as frog hair and there is NO way I can physically match up, THEN he announces he likes hard bodies, it's more than just a little hard and more than just a little hurtful to be posting, "I love that your kisses are the very first thing and the very last thing I do every day" and "I love the way you run your fingers thru my hair when we're watching a movie". on the bathroom mirror every morning. It's hard. Because I start to doubt myself. Because I can't trust that he's really on freakin' board with me 100%. I'm taking a chance. And I don't know where it's going to take me. And I'm putting myself out on a limb and feel that the tree trunk is on fire.

Doesn't your H struggle with this every day aswell? Can he trust you? Is he sure you are 100% in? Isn't he taking a bigger chance than you? Of cause it is hard for you. It is hard for you both.

[This message edited by TOMTEFAR at 9:54 AM, February 7th (Friday)]


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
Aubrie
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Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks everyone for your help, comments, and insight.

Plainsong, your post is awesome and I'm still working thru it. I recognize alot of the things you pointed out. Will definitely be checking those books out cause right now, I'm at the end of options. Time for something new.

Are you needing validation from QS that he still finds you attractive?
After the breakdown of last weekend, yes it would be nice to hear something positive from him.

And look, I don't need validation 24/7. I don't need to hear him say, "You're the only chick I wanna bang" 48 times a day. I don't even need to hear it every day. Contrary to popular belief, I have really made progress in my "neediness" for validation.

It's something I've been trying to find a balance in. Too much validation or zero validation. Validation is a sticky thing with waywards. We're preached to and preached to and preached to that we shouldn't need, want, or crave it. But I think that some validation in a relationship is necessary. I mean, come on. How many men on this earth are nervous on whether their dick is long enough? They want their wife to coo and carry on over how amazeballs it is. How many women on this earth are scared their butt looks fat in those jeans? They want their husband to say, "Ya know Honey, you're doubting yourself right now, but I think you've got the cutest happy ass evah!" Ya know? We all want our spouse to like us and compliment us. Isn't that the point of a relationship? Liking and loving a person?

Has there been any reassurances given to you after finding out about the crush and the hard-bodies?
Nope. I tried to go to him with my concerns, he "shame spiraled", and slept on the couch. I spent the next day doing squats and lunges till my body screamed.

What I'm seeing is that you and QS have an established pattern with communication when the talk is about something that has happened between you and you are trying to express yourself. It seems that you both fall into Guilt/Shame when he pulls out the big guns of "Noooobody loves me. Eeeeeeverybody hates me. I'm gonna eat worms and dieeeee.".
Winner, winner, chicken dinner! And I don't recognize that its happened till after I'm left in the rubble continuing to hold the issues I tried to approach him with, and he's gotten out of the conversation.

Doesn't your H struggle with this every day aswell? Can he trust you? Is he sure you are 100% in? Isn't he taking a bigger chance than you? Of cause it is hard for you. It is hard for you both.
Look, I know where you're coming from and it's something I think about. It's like Dixie said. QS said he has forgiven me. He said he's worked thru the pain. That he doesn't think of the A anymore. I'll use his example. It's like when he cut off his thumb. Every blue moon, he bumps it and it hurts and he remembers the day he cut it off. But then it goes away and he's ok. He's said he trusts me, he feels safe, he's content.

So, based on what he's said, I continue to move forward. I have to trust that he will bring an A related issue to me. Or if/when something is an issue and the A is piggy-backing.

However, if he's on a different time line (say the 3-5 year plan) and I'm still moving forward on the 2-3 year plan, I'm waking up every morning shooting myself in the foot. I'm set up for failure. Unless he tells me otherwise.

I'm done guessing. If he's got an issue, speak up Sugah Boo. I can't guess. I'm not God. He knows this. We have that understanding. Goes the same for me. BUT when I come forward, we have issues.

What's going on now isn't A related. It's just relationship related. BUT because I did have an A, I do know that there is the chance that it's somehow tied in. Jesus can it get any more complicated?

SO! Allllll that to get to this. He's not working the next two days. Our 11th anniversary is tomorrow. (Can this timing be anymore awkward?) We woke up and I started talking. Here's how I feel.

We process things very differently. He can be approached by a situation and within a few hours, he's worked thru it all in his mind, he deals with it, and throws it away. I'm not like that. I take days to process. I don't think he's always aware of that. He forgets. Cause we're different.

Every time a major incident happens (say with FOO) it takes about 4-7 days for me to work thru it. First I'm in shock. Then I laugh hysterically at the insanity of it all. Then I get pissed. Then I'm left feeling hurt. And I have to work thru each emotion, in whichever way they come, as they come, till I'm able to accept and move on.

As long as I am dealing with emotions toward other people (FOO, friends, the kids, the neighbor, the pizza dude who delivered our stuff to the wrong house, the doctor who was rude) he's ok to listen to me. BUT, when I come to him with emotions directed at him, eeeeeeverything changes.

So from Friday afternoon to Tuesday, things were happening and piling up on me. I was connecting dots (that may or may not exist,) but it's how I was processing.) I went to him to try to talk, he started the shame spiral. I started thinking, well maybe my A is triggering him, maybe he's really hurting too and isn't telling me, and my attention turned from my issues with him, to his shame spiral. He slept on the couch. And I was left alone with the pre-existing issues from last week, on top of the fear and anxiety of why he was on the couch.

I see it clearly now. And this morning I asked him why it was I couldn't approach him with issues with him. Why can I not say to him, "You know what? I appreciate your honesty in announcing your crush. I'm not happy about it. It hurt my feelings. Can we talk about this?"

Do we need to work together to find a way for me to safely approach him with my negative feelings toward him? Or do I need to just figure out how to deal with this alone? And if I do indeed have to go it alone, how exactly is that building trust and intimacy between us? Isn't it defeating the purpose of having a relationship to begin with?

We're all human. We're all going to hurt one another. He's going to say something stupid and hurt my feelings. I'm going to speak in anger and insult him. People hurt one another a million times in a lifetime. But how can we work thru that together? Or can we?

Do you believe the things in your shame spiral? Do you really feel worthless, that nobody wants you, that you're just a waste of air? Do you really believe that about yourself? Do you recognize that all that has nothing to do with me or anyone else, but yourself?

Is there anything I can do to help you work thru that? I can't fix it for you, but I can support you thru the process.

And he dropped the bomb. He doesn't feel those things about himself. He's cool with him.

Alrighty. So. Why the shame spiral when I approach you then? Are you trying to manipulate the situation so you don't have to deal with ugly feelings?

Don't tell me I'm crazy and don't recognize it. Dad does it to me all the time.

There is a slight difference. Dad will actually have a conversation. But he turns it all around and says, "It's all in your head. You're just imagining it. I didn't mean it that way. You saw it all wrong. Change your perspective." He speaks those words.

With QS, he uses the shame spiral which changes the course of the conversation. He gets his ego stroke, and walks out of the room. A-ok. And I'm left sitting on the bed going, "WHAT just happened??? And what do I do with this??? Am I CRAZY!? WHAT am I doing wrong???" He doesn't say the words, but his actions leave me feeling them.

The feelings I get after I've had a conversation with Dad and QS are the same. I'm crazy and stupid and confused and hurt and it's all my fault.

So now I see the manipulation the shame spiral is. And I'm going to call him on it. He said this morning that he didn't recognize it as a manipulation tactic till I broke it down. So I guess it was happening on a subconscious level? I don't even know. I'm still processing that one.

I don't know what the next couple days holds. I don't know what he's going to do with everything I just said. I don't know if I can ever safely go to him with problems. Right now, I'm waiting.

*shrug*


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6227 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
CryingEyes
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Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't have time to respond to everything, but just wanted to say that ^^^ is huge. Great job!!!! I'll be back when I have more time.


Life isn't about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself.

Posts: 1254 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: WA
CryingEyes
♀ Member
Member # 11826
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’m going to jump around a bit. Sorry if it doesn’t make sense. Keep in mind that this is a process and it takes “time” to learn new skills that we’ve never used before. I’ve been working on this process for a while. I’m only NOW starting to change how I react to in these types of conversations.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner! And I don't recognize that its happened till after I'm left in the rubble continuing to hold the issues I tried to approach him with, and he's gotten out of the conversation.

It’s ok that you don’t recognize it until after the conversation. I think if you think back to not so long ago, there was a time when you didn’t recognize it AT ALL. You are working the process of getting healthy. To me, that path is not a straight path. What I’ve seen with myself is that, I learn something. I work hard to adjust my thoughts/feelings. I stumble; end up feeling like a complete failure, but I keep doing it. At some point, it isn’t as hard. I stumble less, and it starts to feel natural. You start thinking that you’ve always been this way, but the true is, you haven’t.
Start becoming more “aware” of how the conversation became derailed. Go back and figure out where “you” sidetracked from your intent. Not QS, YOU. You already did that with this conversation:
I went to him to try to talk, he started the shame spiral. I started thinking, well maybe my A is triggering him, maybe he's really hurting too and isn't telling me, and my attention turned from my issues with him, to his shame spiral.

So, if this is true:
So, based on what he's said, I continue to move forward. I have to trust that he will bring an A related issue to me

Why did you ….
I started thinking, well maybe my A is triggering him, maybe he's really hurting too and isn't telling me,

Your right, you do have to trust him to bring these things to you. I suspect you don’t trust him to do that. The thing is, you cannot have open honest communication if he doesn’t. You will always be guessing if you got it right this time or not. It’s QS’s job to bring up his issues to you. It isn’t your job to “guess” if something is bothering him or not. If you start to wonder if it is A related, ask him. If he says no, believe him. Easy for me to write. Hard hard hard to implement.

Part of why the conversation derailed was from your shame from the A. I’m a BS, so I’m talking out my a$$ on this one. Please forgive me. I do think that at some point, the shame the WS carries from the A starts to hold them back from progressing to be healthy. There is a time and place for healthy shame about the A, however, toxic shame will always keep you stuck. I understand the shame you feel about the A and I cannot even begin to understand how you process that and let it go. I think it’s an important step for you to take in order to realize your own value and give you the straight to stand up for yourself and what you think/feel. I see this as a step so you can stop asking yourself:

Am I CRAZY!?

I use to do this ALL the time. I would start a conversation with my H hoping he would validate me and tell me I wasn’t crazy. Guess what. It never worked. NEVER!!! I would leave the conversation wondering what the hell I was doing wrong, and how can I fix this. Feeling completely and totally unheard. I was spinning my wheels for years ending countless conversations in tears and feeling much worse after the conversation then before. QS cannot validate if you are CRAZY or not. You need to validate to yourself that you are not crazy. It’s ok to have feelings even if they are not valid. They are yours and they come from somewhere. That doesn’t make you crazy. I see that this is a FOO issue and something you are already working on. You have value and what you think/feel matters. Even if the other person does not agree/see it.
So now I see the manipulation the shame spiral is. And I'm going to call him on it. He said this morning that he didn't recognize it as a manipulation tactic till I broke it down. So I guess it was happening on a subconscious level?

You bet this is happing on subconscious level. From what you have written here, QS FOO it’s all about how “unwanted” he was and how horrible he is. How does one get through childhood “hearing” that every day? We create our own tactics to surviving our FOO. Some not so healthy.
Do we need to work together to find a way for me to safely approach him with my negative feelings toward him? Or do I need to just figure out how to deal with this alone? And if I do indeed have to go it alone, how exactly is that building trust and intimacy between us? Isn't it defeating the purpose of having a relationship to begin with?

I think you both have parts you need to work on in order for you to have a safe environment to approach these conversations in. You can do them together, but you don’t need to. I agree that doing it together builds trust and intimacy between you both, but even if you do this alone, it still can build trust and intimacy. It doesn’t have to be one way or another. Does that make sense?
The feelings I get after I've had a conversation with Dad and QS are the same. I'm crazy and stupid and confused and hurt and it's all my fault.

This is a huge realization and will take some time to process. Your Dad and QS are not the same. I understand at that moment, the feelings are the same. You are no longer the little girl who needed Dad to save her. You CAN standup for yourself and protect yourself. To both your Dad and QS. You are already working on this process by addressing your FOO issues. You are in the middle of that $hit storm and you are doing a great job. I admire your courage. I applaud you. This $hit isn’t easy.

I don't know what the next couple days holds. I don't know what he's going to do with everything I just said. I don't know if I can ever safely go to him with problems. Right now, I'm waiting

How about instead of waiting, you do something for yourself that would validate you? How about patting you on the back for having the conversation? Instead of asking how you could have done better, look at ALL the great thing you did. I know it doesn’t “feel” good, but maybe that is because of how you are "seeing" it.


Life isn't about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself.

Posts: 1254 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: WA
TOMTEFAR
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Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Look, I know where you're coming from and it's something I think about. It's like Dixie said. QS said he has forgiven me. He said he's worked thru the pain. That he doesn't think of the A anymore.

QS is a typical H in a M. We tend to avoid conflicts. For some it is because they are affraid of them. For some it is just the easy way. This is true in roughtly 70% of all M. I know I'm one of those H. However, this doesn't mean that your H is OK. I know I wasn't OK. I kept building things up and once in a while my glas was full. I see some of myself in QS although QS is way worse than I am.

Now to my Point. Just because QS sais he is OK with the A doesn't mean you can asume he actually is. He might just be avoiding the conflict with you, taking the easy way out. This actually fits well into his behaviour right now.


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
painfulpast
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Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Aubrie,

I'm going out on a limb here - and only because I think we live in the same house, or at least have the same H. My H can deal with anything in record time. I think he should write a book titled "How to Solve Any Issue in 3 Minutes or Less" and it's frustrating as hell sometimes because, as you mentioned, the hints that fly are that we should be able to do the same.

I think you and I come at problems the same way, if from different sides of the coin. My H had his A, and I wanted to dig. Why? What drove him to it? What caused his unhappiness? Why didn't he discuss it with me? Oddly, his A had ended before I discovered it, and he already had these answers. He ended his A, and he analyzed why he did it, and changed. Cased closed - or it was until I found out. For you, you had your A, and confessed. And then you wanted to analyze why. What made you want that? Why did you enjoy it? Why didn't you get that feeling at home? Could you get that feeling at home? And so on. Your H? He wanted to know it wouldn't happen again, case closed - or so he wanted it to be.

So let's take these attitudes beyond an A. Let's take them to the comments about your H's crush. He said it. Why? Who knows. To hurt you? Because he's just not thinking? Because he likes being honest and open with you? Whatever - he shouldn't have said it. It was an obviously dumb thing to say to one's wife. I'm sure there are men you find attractive, and yet you don't need to inform him of every one. I'm sure you have a type of body you find attractive - and yet you still find your H attractive. Do you need to advertise your ideal body to him? Or how about (to steal your reference) your ideal penis? No, because there is a thing called tact. Some things just don't need to be shared.

Now, on the the need to 'analyze' which is where his 'nobody likes me' mentality probably comes from. At least, in my house it did. I wanted to discuss everything - and yet my H saw it as a long winded discussion on his flaws. I didn't - I saw it as getting to the heart of an issue. The problem was, for my H, getting to the heart of the issue is as simple as "Don't tell me you have a crush on her. What is wrong with you? Do you think I want to hear that?" Case closed. He won't do it again. It took me a while to realize that sometimes, some people just need instructions, not a deep dive into what drove the behavior. Why? Because to them, that isn't important. To them, the outcome is what matters, not the method to get there.

In other words, if we are going on a road trip, I can discuss 1000 different routes to take, and the pros and cons of each. My H only wants to know one thing - what route are we taking? He isn't interested in my decision process - just my decision. Did that hurt me for a while? Did it make me feel like I wasn't important? Sometimes. Eventually, I heard him - it wasn't that I wasn't important, or my feelings didn't matter - it was that he wasn't getting anything from dissecting the events that led us to the discussion. He wanted the answer on how not to hurt my feelings, not why my feelings were hurt, or what in my past makes these things hurt, or anything else. Just tell him how to not do it again.

What was really going on was this: I wanted to discuss the events, and his refusal made me feel unimportant. I would persist, and continue to insist he discuss these things with me. What I realized was that by doing this, I was saying to him that his feelings weren't important, and that my way was the only acceptable way to solve a problem. We were both guilty of the same crime - our way was THE way, and the other party was just selfish and inconsiderate by forcing their way. It's a never ending no-win situation.

I can't say this is happening in your home, but from your description, it sounds like it may be. It's hard, because you're trying to solve problems, and yet somehow the problems just grow. For your H, he wants to correct the behavior and move on, and yet he isn't allowed to do that.

What worked for me was simple - give his way a chance in small instances. For example - in your situation - if my H said he preferred X type of body (that wasn't my body) instead of spending an hour explaining why that hurt me, and how I felt, and what we could do in the future, I would try his way. I would say "Why are you telling me that? Do you want me to tell you every time I find someone attractive?" and he's say "sure - it wouldn't bother me." and I would then say "well it bothers me, so knock it off!" The end. If he does it again, then we do it my way - why does it make me feel badly about myself. What it does to my esteem and my desire to be open with him, etc. Yes, he gets a full on lesson in why such behaviors are hurtful. If he doesn't like it - too bad. I tried his way.

Now, on big issues, we go my way. But he knows that this is a big issue, so he deals with it. I don't take every incident as a way to dive into all of his actions and reasons why. When I do that, he feels that I'm attacking him and using the incident as a means to discuss all the things I don't like about him.

I don't know if any of this is making sense to anyone else honestly. I know that for us, it works. I now see how he hears me, and not just what I feel I need to get across. The reality was, I didn't need to get it across. I wanted to. I thought that discussing things was always the answer. It's not. Sometimes the answer is just walking away.

So, for the doctor that was rude - before I would have wondered for days why. I would be offended, I would wonder if my Doc hated me, etc. Now? Now I assume my Doc is a person that has bad days. I accept that I'm one patient in a thousand, and the reality is my Doc doesn't really have an opinion on me one way or another. It was just a bad day.

For family - I would sometimes try to dig into it. It was his family really - lots and lots of FOO. I wanted them to accept me. I wanted to know why they didn't. I felt badly, and yet didn't even like them. I wanted them to see my point of view, and admit they were in the wrong.

But why? I don't like them. I don't need them. If they want to be jerks, it's because they're just miserable people and they are only happy when they can talk negatively about someone else. It stops them from looking at themselves. That's their issue. I could care less now. I've had to do that with members of my own family too, sadly. Just walk away.

So, you're writing letters to your family, and you're discussing it with your H, and then something else happens, and more discussions, and more hurt feelings, etc. Your H may be thinking "as long as they're the focus, it's not me", but really, they shouldn't be the focus, because regardless of the reasons, they are just jerks (paraphrasing). Sometimes, people are just jerks. It's worse when it's family, but everyone is someone's family - even the jerks. Sometimes, the answer is found in 3 minutes - walk away. Worry about yourself, and not take everything personally, because sometimes a rude checkout girl is just a rude checkout girl. Sometimes a passive aggressive mother is just a passive aggressive mother, and getting away is the only solution. Sometimes, a thoughtless comment is just a thoughtless comment, and calling the person out and saying 'don't do it again' is all that's needed.

I'm not saying this is how you should live your life, or that any of this will even mean anything to your situation. It just all sounded very familiar to me, so I figured I'd toss out what's worked for me - for the most part

EDIT: Happy Anniversary. Maybe call a truce for the day, and just be happy being together?

[This message edited by painfulpast at 8:39 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

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