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User Topic: Judgment in Replies??
♂ New Member
Member # 41006
Default  Posted: 8:47 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it is important for those who post to take into consideration the experiences of their "target." I think many posters craft their responses for the regulars, even though it is a newbie asking for help. Many seem to want to be the first to clobber the newbie in an unconscious effort to garner acceptance from the SI community, or to demonstrate how far they have come. 2x4s may be appropriate for those who have been adequately counseled but need a wake-up. Disastergirl was clearly in pain and reaching out for help. She could have been shown a little compassion and gently steered in the proper direction. Instead, we were ganging up on her and scolding her for not thinking correctly. Hopefully she will return, because she is clearly a troubled soul in need of a little understanding.

Me: WH (57)
Her: BW (45)
D-Day: #1 - 2005, #2 - 10/2012
Status: R

Posts: 20 | Registered: Oct 2013
♀ Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Even as a BS I've learned so much in this forum in understanding my husband and even gaining empathy for him.

BS - Me
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking

Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
♂ Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Deeply, Mods, Admins & Guides for your support to all and for your patience with me in particular.

Many seem to want to be the first to clobber the newbie in an unconscious effort to garner acceptance from the SI community, or to demonstrate how far they have come

Jeez Cornbread, you make it sound like we Waywards are a pretty screwed in the head bunch.
Craving acceptance and validation from internet strangers.

I disagree.
My take is that there are two distinct 'styles' of advice giving in the Wayward forum.
I don't believe there is any motivation "unconscious" or otherwise except wanting to help newbies 'see the light'.

First style 'Warm & Fuzzie'. Supportive, sympathetic, empathic, concilatory, lots of words to indicate it's only an opinion in deference to the OP's sensibilities.

Second style 'Wake up & Smell The Coffee'. Blunt, to the point, this is reality, take it or leave it.

Both 'styles' have merit, neither one is right or wrong.
Both can be taken too far. (something I have been guilty of)

Of course that's just my humble opinion, as long as no one is offended, gets upset or feels judged.

ETA: I have noticed a lot of fans of the 'Warm & Fuzzie' style passing judgement on the use of the 'Wake up & Smell The Coffee' style.
I have yet to see the opposite.
Just an observation.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 10:18 PM, February 7th (Friday)]

Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
♀ Member
Member # 36853
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Want to add my voice in thanking DS, MH, mods, guides, BSes, and fellow waywards for the abundance of help I have received here. I have never felt attacked here. I have had to face hard truths and I'm so grateful for those who were willing to tell me straight up and help me see the light.

FWW 40's
D-day August 27, 2012
3 kids and 2 dogs

I edit often because I make a lot of typos. ☺️

Posts: 1499 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Deep South, USA
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cornbread, I have to respectfully disagree WRT Disastergirl. I feel qualified to speak to this because, anyone who remembers or wants to go back and look at my first few posts...I was very similar to Disastergirl. In pain and reaching out for help? Maybe I was, subconsciously. I'm frankly too mortified to go back and look at my early posts, but I'm sure the responses were a combination of 2x4's and compassion.

And you know what? It didn't make a bit of difference. I wasn't ready. I hadn't hit bottom yet.

Instead, we were ganging up on her and scolding her for not thinking correctly.

Personally I didn't see that happen, but I won't dispute your interpretation of it.

Hopefully she will return, because she is clearly a troubled soul in need of a little understanding.

ITA. So was I. And I did return. Thanks y'all.

fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response thereís a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
♀ Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I found this forum, all I can say I was thankful, I had read a lot of books already, but nowhere could I talk to others , and be free to talk and to listen. Not to be judged, a place where I could let out my mixed up thoughts , place that I could give me some guidance and a place that maybe I could pass on my experience.

There has been enough support caring, and truths , that have kept me from faltering. Almost like a mothers care. lol sorry if to feely or sentimental.

As a mother you have to nurture and support but you also speak truths and prepare for reality.

I think this entire forum lets this process happen. And only the ones ready to accept can see the benefit. I have, and am thankful and greatful that you all have given us this place.

Thank you,

BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6

Posts: 435 | Registered: Apr 2013
♂ New Member
Member # 39254
Default  Posted: 11:46 PM, February 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Deeply, I am sure you are refererring to me as i made a statement to that affect in a recent post.

I am not trying to be disrespectful to what the moderators are trying to do to help people and i apologize if you took it that way

However, how do you not see that you are being judgemental when your 3rd paragraph calls me out as "being irrational and not dealing with the real issues which is infidelity". And then said I was acting as a 7th grader at the end.

I am curious to know how you know this to be true. Because I didnt answer a question in a certain way, or didnt use the right words to prove to you that I want to change. Or just because I raised the issue?

Where is the objectivity in your statements? Do you not need objectivity because you have reached the other side of infidelity and know the only path to it.

If people didnt want to change they would never look for help, find this site or post their stories.

As I have said, I think this is a powerful healing community but I am concerned that many comments tend to boarder on self righteousness from waywards. When someone has reached the other side of infidelity they then become moralisticly superior and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.....particularly those that waver and struggle. Just as we justify our behavior in our affairs, we justify self righteousness as being ok because we are trying to "help" someone.

I am still here dealing with my issues, trying to get the point where you are at, I just dont always agree with how some people choose to employ their help.

[This message edited by Marriedman2013 at 11:51 PM, February 7th (Friday)]

Posts: 21 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Midwest
Sad in AZ
♀ Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you tend to spend the bulk of your time in the Wayward forum, you may not realize that BSs get smacked around a bit and with good reason. In the beginning, we're often in a deep fog and don't always hear what's helpful.

I had to back off from posting when I first joined SI because I had been doing EVERYTHING wrong for two years before I found this site. Now I tend to be very blunt with newly betrayed spouses. I'm not touchy-feely, and won't blow smoke.

I have a number of friends who are former waywards, and I love and respect them deeply. Listen carefully, and take what you need. You won't find a safer place.

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

Posts: 20284 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
♀ Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To those taking this message personally please stop. Its the exact behavior DS was speaking of. No as vets (and I don't consider myself one yet)we do not hold back whether it be a newbie or an old timer. If anything the newbies need the most blunt honesty to help pull them out of their pity me mode. I posted and ran for a month or so after my first post. I came back when I was ready for the truth. I got some harsh advice that would piss me off and then I examined why it was pissing me off. I think as waywards we want so badly for someone to hug us and tell us we're not bad people that when we get whacked with some truth we get super defensive. I am not going to hold punches for anyone because I am tired of living a life of holding things in because I might hurt someone's feelings. I don't purposely go out scouring this forum for new people to bash but when I read a post with someone with their head still in a bad place I will be very blunt. This forum is not about coddling, its about growing up.

Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."

Posts: 2760 | Registered: Oct 2012
♀ Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 3:09 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes!!!! It is absolutely about growing up. I too have taken some "hard" hits. I still do, every day. But it's worth it. I'm still dense. I'm still immature. I'm grateful for the patience of the people here. They are my greatest allies. They challenge me to really look at what I'm saying/thinking/feeling/doing. What would I do without SI and our Mods/Guides? I don't know, but I do know I would still be lost.

[This message edited by Wayflost at 12:08 AM, February 9th (Sunday)]

Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.

Posts: 412 | Registered: Dec 2013
♀ Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 5:20 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You take the good and the bad with a website. Some of the veteran waywards are awesome and give amazing advice and frankly are why I keep coming back and reading. Others have their heads so far up their own sanctimonious asses they can't see out the other side.

There are newbies (such as myself) that need to hear the hard truth and others that aren't ready. I find that if you want to make a point, do it respectfully. Tough love isn't rude and it doesn't come from a place of judgement. No one on here (at least to my knowledge) is a MC or IC and you should treat advice on here like all advice on the internet.

I will continue to read and post but I certainly will be pointing posters who cross a line.

Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012

Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
♀ Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 6:05 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The wayward forum is the most protected forum here. When we see a wayward getting bombarded, the team of moderators will discuss whether or not it's appropriate, or within the guidelines/wayward forum description. There's a lot of gray area, but it is never decided by one person, there is much discussion and the subject isn't taken lightly of whether or not mod action is necessary.

Perfect system? No. But you (general statement) can be damn sure we want the waywards who come here to feel safe and supported. Or at least learn the tools they need to heal and get through the shitstorm they created.

How is somebody going to heal if they only hear 'good job', or if they don't get real suggestions for a very real and destructive fuck up?

I never understand it when a wayward comes here and is told 'that was a crappy thing to do', or 'you need to cut the shit' and they get offended. Cheating IS a crappy thing to do. You DO need to cut the shit.

We're not talking about puppies and rainbows here. Sometimes it doesn't feel good, sometimes posts make us angry, make us sad, make us happy. Feel the feelings, open your ears, realize that people posting to you know what you're talking about. Everybody here has BTDT in one form or another. Of course it doesn't all apply to you, but some thing, many things that people post are going to help. I guarantee it.

Listen up, this is all good stuff here. Free therapy!

Oh, and take what you need and leave the rest.

Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."

Posts: 38018 | Registered: Sep 2007
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


The very first sentence in my original post clarifies that this not about any on person in particular.


I am still here dealing with my issues, trying to get the point where you are at, I just dont always agree with how some people choose to employ their help.

And that's great that you're still here!! No one is saying you have to agree with everything here, all I'm saying is for you (again, general term) stop viewing things as an "attack" "bashing" etc., just because someone else has a different point of view.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:57 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]

"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.

Posts: 198290 | Registered: May 2002
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been here for quite a while, and in my experience, this is the safest place on the internet. It is the ONLY place I am comfortable with my WS going to right now and our actual terms for R are that if he gets on the internet, it is to this site only.

As a BS, I too have gotten a few 2 x 4s, when I was dealing with my original WS who was a SA but I didn't want to see it (and I kept getting the same reaction to everything I posted...he is STILL an addict, he is STILL manipulating, WAKE UP) and I eventually did. (Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart to everyone in the "old days" who gave me the truth even when I didn't want to hear it.

And in NB when I was dating and making more bad choices (and I kept thinking, wait! I've done all the self growth I need to, ouch, and then, shoot, I obviously still have more issues to address....)

Being coddled, being gentle, being subtle....that is great for children and babies. Being told the truth and being expected to own your own issues means you are being treated like an adult. You may not want to hear it, it may not "feel good". But when you are making unhealthy choices in your life, someone needs to put it right there in front of your face. Because when we don't want to deal with our own problems, and we are in pain (especially of our own making because of stupid mistakes) people coddling us isn't going to teach us anything. AA works so well for those that are ready for it because the old-timers there can "smell" when you are lying and not being authentic. Same here. Those that BTDT can "smell" when someone else is making the same mistakes they made and will call them out on them because truth is the only thing that truly works.

And I do want to get in a THANK YOU!!! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! to the administrators and moderators on this site. They are an amazing, dedicated group of people (as are the ones that stick around to help others).

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 8:17 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]

Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 15289 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This site has been a great place for me to heal and get candid and awesome advice from members here. I have been smacked by 2x4's myself and while it may sting to get one, most of the time it's what's needed.
I have made plenty of members angry at me for my "in your face" style and hard truths. Those members whom were angry with me would come back later and thank me for what I said to them.

It is not meant to be judgmental or an attack. More on the lines of being an ocean of cold water thrown in your face to get new and old waywards to see the damage they are doing or have done.

Some waywards come here and are remorseful and all they need is steering in what they should be doing and what to expect from their BS.

Others come here regretful, but not remorseful and still in ME,ME,ME mode. When that is pointed out, the reflex action is to become defensive.
"You don't know me"
No I don't,but I know infidelity and what comes along with it

"You're judging me"

No I'm holding the mirror up so you can see how
you have destroyed your marriage and if you don't change, you may never get it back.

If I was being judgmental, I would be calling women names like whore and slut.

I would be calling men scumbags,dirtbags and deadbeats. ( I have called OM those names..guilty, but not waywards trying to get help)

No one is here to run you off. We're all here to help.
Thanks to DS,MH and all the Mods,Guides and Administrators for their hard work and dedication.

Thanks to all the members here for making this a great place to get help.

In one is here to attack or judge the motto goes...

Take what you need and leave the rest

The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2534 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
♀ Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It never fails. A person gives their opinion on a belief which differs from another person, and they're labeled judgmental and a bully. Drives me nuts. People disagree. It's human nature. But we can't handle it so we start throwing around ridiculous words like "judgmental" and "bully" in an effort to make ourselves feel better and ward off the "bad guys".

Judgmental why? Because you (general term) feel threatened that someone isn't on "your side". If you need someone on your side, look at your AP. But then...there's a reason why you're on SI so obviously that AP isn't really "all that" otherwise you wouldn't be looking for help right? There is something deeper within, screaming for help, and you know the AP isn't the answer.

You want someone to help you? Listen to what they're saying. One would imagine that a person that's been there, done that, bears the scars, has the t-shirt, and is running that marathon juuuuuust mught know what they're doing. And yeah it's hard. I get my butt handed to me all the time. On the boards, via PM. It's tough to listen to this stuff. But I also know they've been right 100% of the time.

Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

Posts: 6300 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
♀ Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Smez how are other waywards being sanctimonious? It is a serious question as I'm curious. The very fact that we are waywards should prevent us from feeling that way as obviously at one point some of our morals were in the gutter. I feel and this is just my opinion that when we are tdying to hold up the mirror to others that some feel we're trying to be superior and think ourselves better. Thats not the case, at least not for me. A lot of times when I am tough its because is see so much of me and who I was and am trying to change in that person.

Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."

Posts: 2760 | Registered: Oct 2012
♀ Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

At the risk of sounding judgmental (not my intent), isn't a need for validation instead of real feedback what led many waywards to having affairs in the first place?

I have a lot of compassion for WSs who are still in the early stages of wanting to deal with their issues and the fallout but aren't quite there yet. It is harder for me to muster a lot of sympathy for complaints about not liking the advice being given by other WSs. I might feel differently if I thought that BSs were treated any differently, but if you read through some of the longer threads started by BSs you quickly see that along with the care, concern, and warm fuzzies, there are plenty of warnings, admonishments, and wake up calls dished out.

I recall one time a couple of years ago I posted about something that was really bothering me. I was looking for validation for my feelings and someone to say "poor you". What I got instead was a lot of pointed questions that I admit felt a lot like judgement. But, when I stepped back and thought about it, they were right. I had not really figured out why I felt the way I did, and the comments I received pointed me in directions I hadn't considered. I figured out that my problem that time wasn't my H, but the way I was thinking. Although I didn't realize it at the time, the support I was getting was way more helpful than "poor you" ever could have been. I had to get past not getting what I hoped for in order to see that, though.

I know the intent is to help WS work through their issues, but as a BS the wayward forum has been a real gift. It encouraged me to believe that my H was worth taking another chance on. I don't think that would have been possible if I hadn't seen the pain expressed here, and the responses that contained both compassion and the occasional hard truth.

Edited for stupidautocorrect

[This message edited by cdnmommy at 9:46 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]

Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1742 | Registered: Nov 2010
♀ Member
Member # 33338
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is an awesome thread, and very timely for me personally.

First of all, I will say emphatically and with very little doubt that JM and I would probably not be married today if he had not come to this forum, asked for help and followed the advice he was given. He was smacked a couple of times and those were the replies that helped him (and us) the most.

Second, there is a saying in the rooms of AA that goes something like, "My best thinking is what got me here." And that is powerful, and true. My best thinking got me into a very destructive 20 year battle with addictions, an EA and being the OW in an online A. JM's best thinking got him into several As which were successively more and more destructive. If you are here as a wayward, your best thinking is what brought you here. So it would behoove you to take a step back and listen to others when you THINK they are wrong, or judgmental, or mean. Another saying I hear a lot is "Brain broke-first thought wrong." My first thought or response is usually not coming from a healthy place in my mind. I have learned to pause, and wait for the second or third thought before I react instinctively.

Lastly, I have been doing a lot of study this week on the difference between judgment and discernment. My church has been going through a long situation of drama and hurt feelings and wrong behavior. At the core of it was infidelity. Whether it was the appearance of infidelity, rumors and lies that had no basis in fact, or true infidelity only the people involved know for sure. But there was some very wrong behavior on the part of our pastor, our deacons and the members which needs to be corrected. And those of us who are striving for things to be made right have been accused of being judgmental and unforgiving. Well, there is a HUGE difference between being judgmental or passing judgment, and using discernment.

If you feel that someone (or a bunch of someones) is being judgmental, it may be that they are discerning something wrong in your attitude, your statements or your behavior that they need to challenge. You are here because you need help. (That's not directed at any one person, just a general statement.) If something pisses you off, that's probably an area that you really need to focus on.

Me, 47
Him, 40 (JMSSC)
married 17 years. In R. We are making it. The past does not define who we are today.

Posts: 2780 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: South Carolina
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, February 8th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am of the firm belief, that when the WS walks out of the fog, into clarity, full of regret and remorse, it is inevitable that we become judgmental, of ourselves and of our actions. The act of thinking, I am a monster, is a act of self-judgement. So, if we come from a place of self-judgement in our healing journey, is it so surprising that at times, members seem judgmental of the thoughts and actions of others? I think the desire to share hard earned knowledge is part of human nature.

While some see that as a failure of SI, I personally see that as a strength of the site. If the older wiser members of SI had not called me out from my very first post, I might never have gotten past the foggy side. Having my words analysed and poured over, my motives questioned and my thoughts judged were the very things that lead to my self-understanding. MissesJai, Maia, beach, UnexpectedSong, chasingpavements, Waywardson, authenticnow, Listeningclosely, ThoughtIKnewYa, Edie, Card, Fallen and BaxtersBFF are all on the list of WS's who called me out at various times. I am thankful that for them, providing support did not mean just agreeing to my every thought but it also meant calling a spade a spade and yes, that was often said in a very honest and blunt manner. Sometimes it was hurtful but I could see that even the critical judgmental remarks gave something to my self-healing.

I always understood and readily accepted that each member here, including the mods, were here on SI as a result of adultery being as much of a part in their lives as it was in mine. From day one, I clearly knew that the members were not professional therapists, psychotherapists and psychiatrists but rather, they were people just like me, either a WS or a BS in their own right. Depending on who relied to my posts, I could see that everyone had their own style. But in general, the community as a whole showed a uncanny ability to understand what I was going through, make concrete suggestions for healing and at times, swing the 2x4.

Each of us are individuals, unique and different but there a common thread that binds us all. the act of adultery. And with that core experience uniting us, all of us here have some BTDT experience to share. That shared experience is what binds us here. The truth is that if you donít see things the way that the crowd does, then thatís your prerogative. Just as I am entitled to disagree with anything you said. That is why the adage of 'take what you need and leave the rest" is mentioned here time after time.

SI is not a touchy feelie place by its very institutional structure. This is not a place of detached, analytic and clinical discourse. This is a moderated forum for the lay WS to express their own personal issues. To give and receive support. And while you (in general) may control what support you offer and how that is offered including what words you use and how you present them, the truth is that you cannot control what the other members think, feel and offer up. Thatís just not how this forum works.

Moderators do and will take steps including warnings, PM messages and locking threads where appropriate but they are not our mothers and they cannot police each and every message. The filtering of messages, helpful and harmful is left to ourselves. The phrase, put your big girl panties on, applies to all of us here regardless of our sex.

Again it cannot be said often enough, we are not a professional counselling service and so, the quality of advice that we offer is very much conditional on where each member is in their own self-growth, the emotional connection of the subject matter and the pain and hurt being reflected back.


Edited for spelling

[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 10:55 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]

Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3280 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
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