Would you however use the same approach with the rapist?
Depends on the goal. One should use the same approach with the rapist if empathy and understanding is the goal.
One should use the same approach with the rapist if empathy and understanding is the goal.
"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras
There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Understand that if you can't EFFECTIVELY communicate that message, you are as good as shouting in the wind.
But what is effective for one person is not necessarily so for another. I have seen posters have their asses handed to them and respond that they were grateful for the blunt delivery.
Isadora - Why is phrasing so important?
Smez - Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me.
At a certain level, I agree with Smez that phrasing is important.
Quite often, we are guilty of assuming that the language we speak is the same language that others hear. In fact, in the study of linguistics, itís apparent that language is elastic and its structure and meaning relies on a complex web of social convention and learning. When I studied labour law, one of the earliest lessons was to learn and understand the difference between the words should, could, must, shall etc. as they all have very specific definitions of duty and responsibility even though in day to day speech, most people use them interchangeably.
Words can be used to be very precise and exact and the same words can be used to express only generalities.
Everyone understands that the statement of can you pass the salt during a dinner conversation is not really a question of ability (have you the physical capacity to lift and move the salt shaker) but in fact, in normal conversation, everyone understands that itís the same as using more proper statement of would you please pass the salt to me.
Maybe at one time, teachers would fuss over the misuse of that phrase but IRL, nobody really worries about things like that in their day to day talks unless of course, youíre a lawyer or linguist. LOL
However, depending on who you talk to and their very unique and particular relationship to language, you will find that syntax, grammar and phrasing will make a world a difference in communicating ideas or information. In fact, depending on the complexity of the information being communicated, the misuse of language, grammar etc. will either make or break the effectiveness of the communication.
Same words, totally different meaning.
End of T/J
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 5:54 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]
I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.
Demanding to mince words sounds like another deflection tactic sometimes. You're not speaking my language so you're attacking or bullying me in an ignorant way.
I also feel working with sensitive populations of people do not make you more knowledgeable or less deserving of criticism. I could be wrong but throwing out working with rape victims is an attempt at making posters retreat.
^^ basically the same request phrased 3 different ways.
IMHO, all are judgments (labeling as immature); though some are easier on the ears.
Can I-- in my mind-- rephrase "grow the fuck up" to "a little maturity, please"? ... sure I can ... as soon as you quit acting like a 7th grader.
Former 80s Icon wishful thinking
I had a runin with my BH yesterday, He posted a comment in FB and I took offense to it as to how it came across, we've had this discussion before, both ways. I will say something or as he did type something, and it was read heard wrong.
I think sometimes that's how some of we may type does. SOMETIMES. Most of the time. I think its our own defenses that cause the response. I try to even say to my self "it might have better , instead of I should have done...." They really do give you a different thinking directions.
However. I am really surprised that once again we have so many pages discussing how any of us are treated on the WS forum. The only words should be thanks for having this page. Not discussing the sementics of how a newbie decides to leave because THEIR not ready to face the truths.
. I think the last time a thread was started it went on forever. Sorry to all you moderators and guides.
I am just thank ful for the care the advice the support and the 2x4's
Now I'm headed back into the forum to see who I can practice my wording on. Sorry had to say it lol
I've been in this forum for over 10 years and in the last 2 months the influx of new WS's has been great...truly!
Well the cynical mind I have read that and had to remember where I was (SI) and who wrote it (DS). I am glad those who need it are coming here. Sad why they are here (as I know you are). Guess thatís the same way to feel about a friend in the hospital.
Iíve seen people ďattackedĒ here. Sometimes I would take a softer approach but thatís me. And usually I think the ďattackedĒ is nail on the head stuff. Itís not just in WS either. I think itís not a bad idea to try and remember everyone is different and we all respond to different approaches. Like I did when reading what DS started this with, remember there is a real person on the other end of that statement and trying to understand who they are/where there at is pretty useful stuff if we are trying to communicate. Thatís as applicable to the newbie as it is the vet IMO. I donít think the newbieís necessarily think about that. The mods are pretty fair IMO and I think they help people out when the responses are not helping. Sometimes they just gotta ask. Iíve found them pretty receptive to PMís.
Nothing is perfect. In some ways it is better that way. Iíve disagreed with the Mods decisions at times, but itís not my job to juggle the needs of the many. So I get to disagree, I just donít get to be disrespectful. There are a few vets that are gone that I sorely miss. I hated it when it happened. Wish they could have behaved themselves in public so they could still be here.
BTW SamathaBaker Ė do you like beef jerky? Ė the old stuff is kind of tough Ė just sayiní
[This message edited by foundoutlater at 6:45 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]
I'm only going to comment on one thing, and that is that I would NOT be surprised to find that DS and MH are the true "owners" of the internet.
Here is the problem to me:
It's implicit that WS come to this site seeking guidance, yeah? I think that's safe to assume.
So, complaining that said guidance wasn't provided in a 'nice' enough manner is like saying that you're not going to use that drill that you received for Christmas and *really* needed...because the box and/or wrapping paper wasn't *shiny* enough. It's missing the point of what's being offered.
I will wholeheartedly agree that language is ridiculously important. I am a reader, and I enjoy writing and language in all it's forms and nuances...but this is not a creative writing circle, KWIM? We're not workshopping our drafts around to the group to be dissected for style points and creativity.
If, in life, you fail (or refuse; choose your own adventure) to accept the meaning and spirit behind what is being said in favor of the wrapping that it's enveloped in....then you might as well grab a Capri Sun and some orange slices and hit the sidelines, 'cuz it's going to be a loooooooong fķtbol game (of life) for you.
I'd advocate this approach for the new WS poster who doesn't like the tone of the advice: just deal with it and accept it. I don't mean that in a snarky way either, like the preceding paragraph. I mean accept it in the same way that the WS has to choke down other parts of the shit sandwich of infidelity, like being checked-up on, or not trusted, or attending IC and/or reading...consider it a cool, new coping mechanism with which to go out and tackle the world and interpret new language and experiences. Give it a try for a little bit; if you don't like it, you can always go back.
ETA: This doesn't just apply to WS. I know a ton of BH/BW and other people in life who could afford a paradigm shift as well.
[This message edited by FacePunched at 7:02 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]
Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me. I am rape crisis counselor for both the state of California and New York. I help rape survivors through the process of a hospital visit and I also help man a helpline. In our training we spend a lot of time talking about keeping our own bias and judgements out of our responses. I hear judgement from doctors/police ALL the freaking time. They all think they KNOW what the best advice/path is but often they don't. I apply those principal here. Listen first, think about what is going to productively get through to a person, respect someone who isn't ready to x or y and keep your own issues out of it.
I'm in school for counseling and have done a bit on my own so far also. And what I understand is that this is not a site for professional counseling for your issues. This is a site for regular people who may or may not be trained in communication. There is tremendous diversity on this site and what works for one person may not work for another. So isn't it wonderful that there are so many different ways and communication styles that each member can add to the different threads so there is a greater chance that at least ONE of them will be something that the poster can draw from?
[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:23 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]
The BS hired a PI and oh how wonderful it was to show the evidence. The OM dumped her to go back to his BW and threw her under the bus. Their relationship was built on lies and smoke. Nothing special. Fantasy gone. The BW divorced him due to the lies and got lots of money and assets in the divorce due to the PI's evidence of cheating. Good for her!
Listen to the people here. Their words are worth the weight in gold.
I think you make a really great point and that it sums it up perfectly .
"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."
If not for the wayward form I would be D'd or living in the pre-d-day hell of hurting and not knowing why. KBFF found this site and here found the courage, support and knowledge she needed to tell me of her affair and to become a new beautiful person inside.
But it was not easy. I don't know about the rest of you (generalized ) but when I'm hurting or mad I'm very narrow minded and short sighted. I never cuss but sometimes the only thing that gets through is
Grow the fuck up
I am an advocate of respectful language but I also believe in the plain truth and sometimes I think the only way to reach someone in the fog is through blunt tough love. It has worked for KBFF and I am forever grateful.
Always be yourself, but always be your better self. - Karl G. Maeser
- - - - - - -
Dyslexic...please ignore my spelling.
There is no doubt in my mind that the tough love I got from my coach was critical to my success. Politely telling me to try harder and to please give it 110% would not do it. But when coach yells at you "is that all you've got!?" "You gonna quit!?" Yeah, that's when I find my fight and last bit of strength.
I firmly believe I wouldn't be here (recovered) if I hadn't learned how to fight to the end and not to throw in the towel.
I realize not everyone responds to the coach shouting in their ear. But some do and that's who I can help.
[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 9:05 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]
I'm a huge John Wooden fan.
"Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you."
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be."
[This message edited by SlowUptake at 9:39 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]