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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Dyslexic WS
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 8:20 PM, February 11th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm two months out from getting a timeline from WS, and he's been completely remorseful, empathetic, and committed to R. We've been seeing a fabulous MC and he's also been getting IC from her and another counselor as well. He's been getting to grips with a whole complex of "why"s rooted in FOO, and making a lot of progress.

However, in day-to-day interactions, he's still repeating his old patterns of not being responsible for his own needs, expecting people to take them away for him, and trying to overtake other people's needs in return. I call him out on it and he immediately sees what he's done, as well as the pain he's caused me, but somehow he has so much trouble perceiving what he's about to do BEFORE he does it. He's often said that he has trouble thinking things through without talking to someone, and while pre-A I was usually happy to participate in a conversation with him, right now I'm not thrilled that a lot of the things he says are red flags for me.

In addition to trouble thinking things through without "bouncing ideas off other people", WS has always had difficulty concentrating on reading, implicitly understanding other people's points of view, and accessing his physical feelings and emotions, and struggled with anxiety and existential depression. Fab MC thinks that a kind of dyslexia - which she characterised as a disconnect between conscious and subconscious processes - explains a lot of why he's having trouble acting differently based on his new insights, and has recommended he get assessed.

WS never struggled enough at school for anyone to think his dyslexic tendencies were a major problem, but now I understand that dyslexia can be much more than trouble with spelling and reading, and it seems like something that might be a significant contributing factor to someone becoming a WS. Has anyone had experience with dyslexia, especially the way it affects decision-making and foreseeing consequences?


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 2:48 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No interactions with dyslexia here...but wanted to respond to a couple of things I noted in your post.

I call him out on it and he immediately sees what he's done, as well as the pain he's caused me, but somehow he has so much trouble perceiving what he's about to do BEFORE he does it.

Gently.....this is his part of the journey. To continue on this path will exhaust you and limit his personal growth. My opinion is that a BS is NOT the teacher. Moreover, a BS is not a healthy choice to be the nurturer to a WS. Trust me when I tell you...I personally took on this role, an action supported by our MC and also by our Pastor, and it had dreadful results. It facilitated my wifes true desire to take her A underground and move it swiftly from EA to PA within a few short weeks. In addition, it is exhausting work for you. And right now you have your OWN struggles and pain to deal with.

A WS that desires to put an f in front of that will find a way to do so on his or her own.

I can appreciate the fact he may have a learning disability....but caution you to be careful as you investigate this possibility. I could see how your helpful support could turn into unhealthy justification for his adulterous activity.

Remember, he made the choice to commit adultery....you were not consulted and had no role in him making that choice. You could not have hugged him, told him you loved him, had sex more often, or cooked better meals for him to keep him from that choice. That is all on him. Similarly, he is the only one that can make a choice to change.

My wife is a child of an alcoholic. There are some serious ramifications of this. I am willing to support my wife, thus my offer of R to her, but she is going to be the one taking the lead on her path to healing. I can and will be by her side....will help her up when she stumbles....but she has to take the lead...has to find the courage TO stumble. By resisting my old ways of helping her BEFORE she stumbles I am giving myself the opportunity to choose and grow as well.

It is painful....but it is healthy.

kind of dyslexia - which she characterised as a disconnect between conscious and subconscious processes - explains a lot of why he's having trouble acting differently based on his new insights, and has recommended he get assessed.

This sounds really close to compartmentalization to me. My wife did an excellent job of this....has since childhood. The desire and ability to distance herself from her emotions was a big key into her being able to choose and continue to choose adultery. Another reason she had so much difficulty acting differently, why many WS have this difficulty, is that they were so immersed in lying and deception they literally confused and got lost in themselves. It takes a bit for the lies to clear and them to find their way to the light....some WS never do. My wifes fAP found another woman within 2 months of dumping her....so no guarantees here.

Stay strong....leverage your apparent initial strength into more growth for you. You may very well have more ability for self reflection and growth then your husband currently has....but you simply cannot impart this ability onto him.

I sense you really love him....so I offer this post out of care.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 2:53 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"bouncing ideas off other people"

Is this healthy brain storming or poor boundaries in disguise?

I work with a guy who seeks every opportunity he can find to bounce ideas off a woman we work with. this woman is half his age, good looking, and is a known adulterous. Furthermore, him and her really have no need or reason to interact for the hours a day they do so.....not a part of the same work team, seldom need to interact period. But in public settings he subtly slips into conversation how she is just a wonderful resource to him....has surprising insight. While this can be a reasonable possibility....there are many men in his department that are far more skilled, have far more experience in his specific area of expertise from which to gain insight....this, combined with the fact that he does not seek anyone else out like he does her are big flags to me. He has also told me he shares personal stuff with her....stuff that he could not share with anyone else.

I must also say I note shifts in topics and body language when I pop in his office unexpectedly...have also witness them gathering up for lunch, but driving separately to meet there....he acting very uncomfortable if I happen to show up to the same restaurant.

He reasons these interactions away under the guise of bouncing ideas off her....and she with him.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 2:57 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:04 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi, WS here. Hope you don't mind me contributing? I have dyscalculia (like dyslexia but with numbers) and my brother is severely dyslexic so I have some insight into this that might help.

People assume dyslexia is just about not being able to read and write very well but it is so much more than that. There are a whole host of other things that my brother and I have struggled with since childhood. Dyslexia changes the way information is processed, stored and retrieved. Dylexic people can have major problems with memory, the speed at which we process our thoughts is slower, we have problems with perception of time as well as poor organisational skills and sequencing problems.

For these reasons, a time line, by its very nature will be harder for a dyslexic person to put together (although not impossible) so you WS may want to ask his IC for some support with it.

Lots of dyslexic people (myself included) over compensate for our poor organisational skills by keeping everything separate so it can't become messy. When I was a child I kept all my toys in separate toy boxes; barbies in one, lego in another, cars in another etc. Who am I kidding? I still do it now with my own children's toys! It was the same for people too. I remember being very upset one birthday when I was six because my mum had invited class mates as well as friends I had from outside of school. I guess this could be like compartmentalization.

I am also not able to see consequences very well. Just like with maths, I am unable to clearly think about the outcome of a scenario. My dycalculia isn't that bad so it hasn't really transferred into social situations apart from the fact I find it harder to manage my finances than most people. But my brother struggles with this hugely.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1159 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Alex CR
♀ Member
Member # 27968
Default  Posted: 5:20 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H is dyslexic and so is one of our kids....I've never thought about it being a contributing factor to his cheating.....it's just who he is....he is exceptionally bright and deals with the areas in which he lacks quite well and honestly, he cheated because he's selfish and was looking for approval from others all the time.

OTOH, our son struggles terribly with it. I realized when he reached middle school that reading and math were not the only things affected by his dyslexia, but his 'view' of people and the way he responded to them was affected. We all tend to 'read' each other's body language along with what we hear and he was having great difficulties reading other people correctly. We ended up working with a psychologist then who went beyond just the reading and writing of dyslexia and worked helped him learn to verbalize more with people...to ask for help and to realize his perceptions were not on target, that his dyslexia affected the way he 'reads' people and the world around him too.

He still struggles as an adult, but he knows it's part of the dyslexia and, IMO, has adapted well.

It is up to your H to seek the help and do the work, but understanding the learning disability can help you also learn the skills to communicate with your H.


BS Me 61
WS Him 62
Married 33
Together 40
DD 11/16/09
The future looks good....

Posts: 1635 | Registered: Mar 2010
Asil0623
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Member # 42419
Default  Posted: 6:29 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I work as a reading therapist for dyslexic students. Dyslexia is a learning difference in which the student has difficulty understanding the "code" of reading. They may have problems with reading fluency, spelling, or writing (dysgraphia). Many dyslexics learn to cope with their difficulties, never requiring intervention while others require many years if therapy to learn to read and write. The school where I work is primarily for dyslexic students. From my experience, many of our students have more than one area in need of support. What you described seems almost like someone on the Autism/ Aspergers Spectrum which can range from severe to very high functioning. They may have difficulty with higher order functioning such as organization, time management, understanding the viewpoint of others, hyper-focusing on themselves/their interests, etc. Adults can be tested and diagnosed for this. BTW, ADHD is also a common thread among many dyslexics. Hope that helps!


Me-BS 46
Him- WH 47
Reconciling? It takes two.

Posts: 15 | Registered: Feb 2014
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 8:16 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blakesteele,
Gently.....this is his part of the journey. To continue on this path will exhaust you and limit his personal growth. My opinion is that a BS is NOT the teacher. Moreover, a BS is not a healthy choice to be the nurturer to a WS. Trust me when I tell you...I personally took on this role, an action supported by our MC and also by our Pastor, and it had dreadful results. It facilitated my wifes true desire to take her A underground and move it swiftly from EA to PA within a few short weeks. In addition, it is exhausting work for you. And right now you have your OWN struggles and pain to deal with.
Good point. My WS is completely owning his responsibility for his choices, and being active in changing, and knows he isn't entitled to my support. Supporting him in his journey is a choice I'm making - I avoided interacting with him while I felt I wasn't strong enough to do so while also taking care of myself, and would have no qualms about setting rules about that again. Right now, I am in a place to offer him help, not as the teacher or the nurturer, but just someone who has some skills that he really wants to learn.

(My boundaries are rock solid. Before his A, I thought that I was often unkind or standoffish compared to other people, but through MC and reading, I've come to realise that many people have shaky boundaries at the best of times. This has given me a new context and appreciation for my own skill.)

This sounds really close to compartmentalization to me. My wife did an excellent job of this....has since childhood. The desire and ability to distance herself from her emotions was a big key into her being able to choose and continue to choose adultery. Another reason she had so much difficulty acting differently, why many WS have this difficulty, is that they were so immersed in lying and deception they literally confused and got lost in themselves.
That sounds like where my WS was at during his A, too. Happily, he's no longer there, but the difficulty persists. His confusion and lost-ness definitely existed before the lying and deception.

"bouncing ideas off other people"
Is this healthy brain storming or poor boundaries in disguise?
Definitely could apply to either, or even be a kind of mind-blindness where one doesn't recognise other people as inidividuals distinct from the external world as a whole! It's a phrase I've never been comfortable with, now that I think on it...


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
alifeforesaken
♀ Member
Member # 41139
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In addition to trouble thinking things through without "bouncing ideas off other people", WS has always had difficulty concentrating on reading, implicitly understanding other people's points of view, and accessing his physical feelings and emotions, and struggled with anxiety and existential depression.

I find this interesting. Sorry I have no comment on dyslexia, and I don't think my WH is depressed, but reading this reminds me of him. I have come to realize he most certainly reacts emotionally and not consciously, which comes later. He has done this for as long as I remember, was never totally concerned, because I thought, I'm just "more together" than he is, and now post-A, it's a big deal. I have come to realize he has so many issues he has to deal with and I don't know at this point in time if he can overcome them.

[This message edited by alifeforesaken at 9:01 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]


BW (31)
WH (32)
Children (1yr) (1 due Mar '14)
DD#1 - 9/28/13 DD#2 11/24/13

Posts: 84 | Registered: Oct 2013
scaredyKat
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Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with those who said that dyslexia affects areas besides the written word. DS#1 is dyslexic, and, in contrast to Alex, has an increased awareness of people and ability to read them.

I think it's all fascinating and confirms my observation that we simply cannot pigeonhole people.


Me-BS-60-Can't tell you how painful it was to change this number!
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3269 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think your H should get himself evaluated for ADHD.

I'm a lot like your H, and ADD is my problem, not dyslexia. I read your description and I see lack of empathy, distractibility, impulsiveness, and I think 'ADHD'.

But a) I'm not a pro, and b) I wouldn't dream of making a diagnosis of a person I've never seen.

But I do think your H should get himself evaluated for ADHD.


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9753 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
alifeforesaken
♀ Member
Member # 41139
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sisoon - crazy you should mention this. I said that what eremite said reminds me of my WH. Our MC asked me if I thought he might have Adult ADHD and he mentioned much of what you said.

He has not been evaluated, but maybe you are right, at least it is something she can explore. And I would like to. How does one get evaluated? Would an IC help with this?


BW (31)
WH (32)
Children (1yr) (1 due Mar '14)
DD#1 - 9/28/13 DD#2 11/24/13

Posts: 84 | Registered: Oct 2013
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Life,

It does sound like your WH is less in touch with his emotions than you are. I totally sympathize with suddenly feeling that what you thought was a harmless idiosyncrasy is in fact emblematic of all of a WS's issues! I hear that you're unsure whether he can overcome them. I think it's important for you to make peace with that uncertainty. But also, my WS's issues seem to mainly all stem from the same thing, or at least be very interrelated, so while on a bad day it can seem like "he needs to change everything", on a good day "he just needs to change one thing".

Hopefully your WH can find out more about his issues, so that they stop feeling like a big collection and start making (a dysfunctional kind of) sense. If your MC mentioned it, getting evaluated sounds like a good lead.


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sisoon,

Understood, with thanks. It's possible our MC's characterisation of a conscious/subconscious disconnect as "dyslexia" was a little on the 'holistic' - as opposed to clinical - side!


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trying,

Thanks for your input, it's especially good to hear from someone with firsthand experience. My WS has a relative who has dyscalculia, but I'm only just beginning to understand how both conditions manifest in more subtle ways.

I recognise all the things you mention in my WS, especially problems with sequencing and perception of time, which means he's often anxious about "things taking too long". (He was able to make his timeline by referring to his work calendar and phone records, thankfully, but I know he would have struggled without that structure to base it on.) He also spends a lot of energy organising objects, less out of obsession with order - as perhaps in an autism-like way - and more as a coping strategy, like you. And he has always had a "need to try it to see" attitude, which I now see isn't really an 'attitude' so much as what he's used to because of the way his brain tends to work.

I'm not excusing his poor choices by saying he had difficulty thinking the consequences through, but when you're used to feeling like events are unforeseeable, that must make it difficult to feel that your actions have any meaning. I saw and appreciated how WS processed things differently from most people, but I didn't realise it was also causing problems for him (- and me!!)

I see that you're in the UK too, so if I may ask: have you or your brother been formally assessed, and have you had any support that has been especially useful in understanding and dealing with your conditions?


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi eremite,

Oh yes, I definitely agree with not making excuses for poor choices. But not being able to think logically about a scenario and all its possible outcomes/consequences definitely has an effect on decision making. For me, it mainly relates to finances. For example, if I spend x on this purchase then I won't have enough to cover that direct debit. I just can't juggle the numbers and link the two, it's frustrating but doesn't have dire consequences.

My brother has more difficulty than me. We both have problems with time management and time sequencing. I find it hard to keep track of appointments, birthdays, etc. My brother has trouble forseeing the consequences of poor time management. If he's late for a meeting, that means everyone else is held up, affects the rest of the day etc.

I am old enough to get the tail end of the 'there's no such thing as dyslexia, it's just laziness' attitude. Luckily I had a brilliant teacher in year 3 who fought to get me the funding and extra help. It was hard though, I struggled and was bullied for being 'stupid' even though I excelled at everything else. Interestingly, my dyscalculia contributed to my own A, the feeling of being completely inadequate, like a failure and needing outside validation all stemmed from my days at school.

Anyway, I digress. My brother and I were both assessed at primary school and again at secondary school. You know what the education system is like here, funding is problem so we only got help for educational purposes. Our mum helped us to create coping mechanisms for the other problems. Mainly they involve making lists so we have a visual aid to guide us. Asking for help is a huge one. If I'm struggling, I always ask for help, even if it's embarrassing. BH thinks my little organisational quirks are sweet, everything needs to be written down or put away in its proper place. Sounds crazy but they are necessary, I flounder without them. I still have trouble mixing groups of people, I have school mum friends, friends from back home, my NCT group friends, etc and I can't mix them.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 3:44 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1159 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's possible our MC's characterisation of a conscious/subconscious disconnect as "dyslexia" was a little on the 'holistic' - as opposed to clinical - side!

OK. New age stuff. I get it.

In general, I think there are often multiple ways of framing a phenomenon, and all could be fruitful. In some ways, it doesn't matter what you call a condition, if anything, as long as you get to the source and healthy changes are made.

With ADHD/ADD (and many other phenomena), however, there's a physical component that can be addressed by medication, and the meds can make the IC go more quickly and smoothly. I'm sure I would have been more productive if I had started stimulants when I was 18 instead of 59. If my ADD had been diagnosed when I was young, my life probably would have gone much more smoothly, and I probably would have desired/needed a lot less therapy.

I'm not a big fan of better living through chemistry, but sometimes chemistry is the best tool for the job, and meds work well for a lot of people with ADD/ADHD.

In the US, psychiatrists, who are MDs, do evaluations - they need the MD to prescribe drugs. I don't know about the UK.

http://psychcentral.com/cgi-bin/addquiz.cgi - online very basic ADHD screening quiz. I think it's biased towards finding ADD/ADHD, but it'll give you an idea of what the indicators are. (I have no connection with the site except as a consumer.)


fBH (me) - 65+, fWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9753 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alex,
he is exceptionally bright and deals with the areas in which he lacks quite well and honestly, he cheated because he's selfish and was looking for approval from others all the time.
I would say that could more or less apply to my WS as well, with the addition that the reason why he was looking for external approval was that he wasn't able to validate himself, because he lacked of experience of seeing that his actions had effects on the world (due to FOO dynamics, life experiences, and dylexia or something like it). Because he felt like the world was random, he didn't understand that his existence had meaning, and looked to others to give him value.

That is encouraging to hear about your son, I'm glad you and the psychologist were able to help him adapt. WS is in his thirties and is motivated to learn, so I'm hopeful he'll find a good teacher too. Funnily enough we communicate ok, but yes, him having more insight into and me having more understanding for his processes can only be a good thing.

[This message edited by eremite at 3:41 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, February 12th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Asil,

It's a good point that many people have more than one condition, and some of them tend to go together, so thanks. I'll make sure to mention it to WS. Although he's always seemed too socially responsive for Autism/Aspergers to apply, perhaps there are some coping skills that are relevant across conditions, too.


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
eremite
♀ New Member
Member # 41769
Default  Posted: 6:38 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kat,

Very interesting indeed. And of course, your DS's awareness with people might be nothing to do with his dyslexia, or at least perhaps could be thought of separately.

My WS has definitely suffered from the still-common attitude that one is normal/neurotypical unless assessed otherwise. I think many people, including me and WS (even despite the fact that we are both clearly a little 'diverse', are not used to expecting and looking out for both strengths and weaknesses in people's cognitive processes.


(BS)

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: UK
Topic Posts: 19

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