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User Topic: Thoughts and comments 30 days later...
RawDeal75
♂ New Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks self-rescuer! Good point! We have our next session booked for next week, and I will see after that if I want to change. It couls have just been me interpreting things she said and body language in the wrong way... I'll be wary about it, I will not spend time on sessions that are counter-productive.


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
RawDeal75
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Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another update:
Tomorrow my WW will tell her brother and his wife about the A and about what she has done to crush me and our family. She is extremely nervous about it (so am I), but she understands my reasons behind asking her if she would be willing to do it, and points out again and again that she is willing to do this or anything else needed for me to forgive her for what she has done. It frightens me and makes me very uncomfortable to all of a sudden have this much power and control over her. I didn't ask for it, don't want it, but it's there.

Last night WW called her brother to give him a heads up that she had something important to tell him. It made him worried like crazy, but she wanted to tell him in person with me there so she did not even hint what it was about. That fact that she broke down and cried during the call made him understand that it is something very serious though. There is no going back now...

I'll let you know how it goes, and if it stills feels like a good idea after the talk.

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 9:57 AM, February 21st (Friday)]


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do not really see any benefit in your wife telling her brother. I understand what you are saying that it seems she only realizes the magnitude of what she has done when she has to tell someone, but didnt she already do this with her mom...I think you wrote.

It sounds like she is doing everything to R, I dont see how telling her brother will help, and I can see it backfiring.

Her brother might never understand the reasons she did this like you do and he might not ever think of her the same way.


Posts: 3532 | Registered: Jun 2002
RawDeal75
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Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi craig,
Nope, she hasn't told anyone yet, and will not tell her parents. I don't think she would be able to live with the humiliation. But after us discussing my feelings that there had to be someone, almost anyone, out there besides me who knows about the A she wanted to tell her brother. Both she and I know full well that it will likely change the way he looks at her, but I could not stand the thought of having the A in just my mind (and my WW's). It had to become "real", and we both felt the best way of doing that was to "say it's name out loud".


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
Hosea
♂ Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Re: craig2001

I think, if his WW is willing to tell her brother and is experiencing the pain of personal shame about her behavior, it's a positive sign of both her remorse and her commitment to be accountable to her BS.

Why should her brother think of her the same way? I wouldn't think of my sister the same way, I'd be disappointed in her actions. I would love her no less, but I'd sure as hell tell her to do her damnedest to make it up to her Betrayed if he was willing to try!

Part of the repentant Wayward's journey, at least to me, is being forced to confront the dismal human costs of his/her affair. For a time, it seemed a Free Trip to Fantasyland- Wine! Roses! Romance! Ego boosts! Exciting secrets! Sexual adventure!, etc.

Yet after exposure, the gigantic bill comes due. If there is to be Reconciliation, the Betrayed pays the huge emotional down payment. It costs them everything they have; their trust, self-esteem, their happy marital memories, sometimes even their sanity.

Yet the Wayward has to make the monthly payments. The interest rate is huge, and they're horrified to discover they're going to be making payments for years, possibly even the rest of their lives. Waywards don't lose everything at once, but over time, they sometimes lose more.

Experiencing a partial loss of respect from family members is painful, but that pain can help immunize them from future affairs. More importantly, being willing to experience shame before family helps demonstrate to the Betrayed Spouse that the Wayward is repentant. This makes a deposit in the Betrayed's empty "Can I ever trust my spouse again?" account.

If the Wayward's family believes in the sacredness of marriage vows, they will have a newfound respect for a Betrayed Spouse who is willing to forgive the unforgivable acts of their Wayward family member. This, too, helps, as they can reinforce Wayward accountability in the future.

I personally think it's a positive gesture. I do hope it leads to many more like it.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Very interesting points and something I never really thought about. When I look back, my WW never really had consequences like having to tell anyone else.

Posts: 3532 | Registered: Jun 2002
RawDeal75
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Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with craig, very interesting (and well explained) points! I thought of it more like something I needed to keep me sane, to ground the A also in someone else's reality instead of in just my own nightmarish one. I hope it will be a positive experience for both of us and that it does indeed lead to further steps on the road to R.


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
TheWrongedMan
♂ Member
Member # 42009
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, February 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RawDeal, sorry, back online now. With regard to sex, weirdly I haven't found this to be a trigger. I have never really been a jealous person which maybe helps, or maybe I'm simply glad I'm getting some!

Also, my wife was so drunk (fell off a stool at 4am after doing shots just prior) that she apparently doesn't remember details, other than that it was fairly quick and that they had sex, so I haven't had much detail. The mouth thing I don't have a huge prob with as she doesn't think she did (and if it was a v drunken, tear your clothes off quickie then I would veer towards they prob just got on with it, if you see what I mean). However, I haven't attempted the one thing I know that they did do - have intercourse - so maybe that particular battle is ahead of me.

On the revenge sex thing - having had drunken one night stands with strangers before I met my wife, after the initial thrill, even before they were over I used to often find the novelty wearing off, but maybe that's just me. Anyway, my wife seemed to enjoy her's so maybe there's hope for both of us on that front.

As said before, the actual logistics of setting something like that up sounds pretty depressing to me and would prob just make me feel worse (and think about how my wife was able to do it). Not sure any woman would want to be on the receiving end of someone having sex like that either (could get emotional). However, I can't say that I don't share your curiosity - and if the chance fell right into my lap while drunk as it did for my wife, I'd probably just take it now so maybe I should get slightly off of my high horse.

Part of the problem, I think, is that if you're a woman looking for meaningless sex, you're not going to be short of men who'll oblige. Whereas the other way around, I think it might be a bit harder to find someone to jump straight into bed with you.

Anyway, good luck!


BH: Me, 37
WW: 37
Together: 17, married 7 (what a cliche)
DD: 10/1/14 V drunk ONS, confessed immediately, repentant
Kids: None (though we were trying)

Posts: 78 | Registered: Jan 2014
happyman64
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Member # 33212
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, February 23rd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RawDeal

Take one day at a time. It is good to see your wife upset over the terrible decisions she made as well as the remorse she is showing.

You are right that the affair be brought into the light. Even if only to her brother.

That is how affairs get killed. By exposure.

Not let the OMW know and give her evidence so she can deal, with her husband and their marriage.

Both your wife and the OM need to feel consequences. Because if they do not feel pain they will just do it again.

Remember she lied for almost a year. Emotionally and physically she gave herself to the OM and lied to you. She opened the marriage up without asking you.

She risked you and your children for her own desires. You do not get anymore selfish than that........

Now do not take up her offer of your own fling.

It is your wife that wants to level the playing field. That way she can give up on feeling the guilt. She can call it even and now not have to discuss the issues that lead her to cheat and lie to you.

Do not take the easy way out nor allow her to take the easy way out.

You deserve better from her so make sure you get better from her. Hold her and yourself accountable in your marriage or it is all a sham.

I hope your weekend went ok.

You will be cleaning up her mess. MaKe sure she helps you.

HM

PS
Was she tested for std's???

[This message edited by happyman64 at 12:14 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)]


Posts: 794 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New York
RawDeal75
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Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK, not sure how many of you still read and follow this thread but for those of you who do, here isa an update:

Lots have happened since my last post. Enough to split inte several post to simplify reading about them.

ONE:
WW told her brother and his wife. I was there during the talk. It was initially horribly emotional and nerve-wrecking, but it turned out really good. WW did a good job and was open about the A and included just the right amount of information, not really withholding on anything, not flinching when giving what I felt and knew were honest answers. The brother was extremely upset, disappointed and angry with her and could not believe his ears.

I got a lot of love and support which felt really good. So did the "grounding" of the A in someone else's reality that I have talked about before. WW has not managed to show enough empathy about the pain she has caused me, and the only time she has really broken down and cried has been when thinking about the risk of not getting to spend all of her time with the children, or when she feels the shame over what she has done from someone else. Having to speak the words to a third party and listen to herself telling the story aloud worked wonders and I think she took a baby step in the right direction.
I would recommend doing something similar if you end up in a situation like mine.


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
RawDeal75
♂ New Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TWO: I finally told the OM's wife. Thanks to all of you for pointing me in the right direction here. I should have done it a long time ago. If you are in a situation like mine please please please tell the spouse of the other person ASAP. They deserve to know, to make their own decisions. There is NO "happily" unaware. There could be STDs involved and you do not want it on your conscience to know you could have prevented someone from getting HIV but didn't. Tell the other persons spouse. Just do it!

It can also give you someone to talk to who knows exactly what you are going through (if both parties are willing of course, which we were in my case). You can also help each other collect proof and double checking the facts of the A.

Speaking of STDs we were tested and negative for all diseases.


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
RawDeal75
♂ New Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

THREE:
Despite advise from good people on this board and elswhere not to, we actually went to one of the "crime scenes". We spent time in the same café, took the same walks and discussed bothe the A and other things and life in general. My WW was fine with this and kinda liked the idea. She even booked the same hotel and the exact same hotel room!!! Weird, sick, but good. Really good. Think about if the "erase and tape over" thing could be something for you. We liked it. However, the trip also lead to the discovery of more trickle truthing... Difficult for me to handle, a blow to the trust, but necessary at the same time.

I think we are now at a stage in our process when pretty much everything is out in the light of day. There may still be a couple of lies and half-truths out there, but I do feel the only reason they are not discovered yet is that my WW told them in the beginning and forgot about them, I haven't asked about anything related to them so they have not been brought up again. I am starting to realize what a toll this takes on my WW too and I remain hopeful we may find a solution that works for us. Having said that though, see number FOUR below:


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
RawDeal75
♂ New Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FOUR:
I asked my WW to leave the house for a week or so (!). I need time alone and time with the kids. She was shocked and felt I all of a sudden had changed my mind, but in reality two things had happened. Firstly: I think processing the A finally caught up with me, having been away on vacation and the playing charades for friends and family for weeks had not given me the chance to sort through my thought and feelings before.
Secondly, I managed to restore the erased text messages on my WW's iPhone. There were lots of them. LOTS!!! Over 2000 (two thousand!) between Nov-Jan. Very explicit, very hurtful, very everything. Even though she had told me before that they texted a lot, and that some texts were sexually explicit, nothing she had said prepared me for what I saw when I restored the messages. It was like re-living Dday again, and it became to much to handle.


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
Hosea
♂ Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The brother was extremely upset, disappointed and angry with her and could not believe his ears.

This is a big positive for you both, RawDeal, even though I'm sure it was painful. Affairs kept secret have only positive feedback loops between the two cheating partners. Disclose to other parties of importance (family, close friends) can destroy the collusive circuit and introduce powerful negative feedback loops to the Wayward parties, thus making it much more difficult to preserve the former delusion.

It also lets the Betrayed finally have a positive feedback loop. It helps so much to know you have allies of personal importance to the Wayward advocating your case and/or sharing your outrage / disappointment.

I'm really glad you had this little victory. I hope you've many more to come!


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Raw - it certainly seems that you both are well on your way to recovery.. You wife seems to be making all the right moves. Just don't let he back down on working on herself and fixing her why's.

I totally get the need to go back the scene of the crime thing. As long as you can stand to do it. I was the same way I wanted to reclaim my H in many ways. More to with physical and emotional stuff than places and so forth, but his A happened out of town, and his need to travel to that town no longer existed, had it been in my own backyard, it may have been different.

Take your time with healing, and don't let it upset you if you end up having some days here and there where you hate your W, or what she has done, and can hardly stomach looking at her. It is all part of the healing. Take time for you.

(((and strength))))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 7799 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Hosea
♂ Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Secondly, I managed to restore the erased text messages on my WW's iPhone. There were lots of them. LOTS!!! Over 2000 (two thousand!) between Nov-Jan. Very explicit, very hurtful, very everything. Even though she had told me before that they texted a lot, and that some texts were sexually explicit, nothing she had said prepared me for what I saw when I restored the messages. It was like re-living Dday again, and it became to much to handle.

I assume she knows you've seen these?

I had to go through a similar second D-Day, although the texts were not particularly sexual. Months after confession, the OMW emailed me all of my WW's texts during the affair-- though not her husband's half of the exchange. It was pretty grueling -- mostly because it gave a specific voice to an affair I'd experienced mostly via my wife's cold behavior towards me and via my imagination.

Having a timeline of texts-- knowing what kinds of things my WW was saying on particular days was a new trauma. Seeing what kinds of lovey-dovey bullshit she was texting on the two nights I was closest to suicide was especially hard.

When she saw them, and read them anew, it only horrified her all the more. She was so ashamed and disgusted with herself, particularly since she was now seeing the OM's amoral self-centeredness through clear eyes.

I know you both aren't there yet. But I do hope, with time and commitment, you can reach that place. You are taking the right steps. Be strong as you can be, even in the midst of new traumas like this. Keep proving you're the Better Man. You can't make your Wayward Wife become a better woman, but the more she sees your strength and momentum, the more she might realize what she is at risk of losing forever. And this, often more than anything else, can prompt her to change to be worthy of you.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
RawDeal75
♂ New Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for your thoughts and kind words of encouragement! WW saw the texts and I had her read a few of them out loud, much to the same effect as you described Hosea. Raw and naked shame. Unfortunately they still hurt me badly. Delusional discussions about a possible future, how and where they wanted to grow old together, how they wanted to raise the kids etc. were some of the breaks from their main topic: graphic descriptions from memories of their encounters as well as fantasies, sexting, you name it. I am actually releived she's out of the house for a few days, as all that made me just want to throw up just looking at her. Hopefully it will be just a few days, but she has actually looked into alternatives to moving back, although that is the last thing she wants. She is deperate to move back to me and the kids. She has also arranged for IC. Starting next week. It will be som kind of very intense therapy, ISTDP if that tells anyone anything? Three hours a day for several days.

I'll keep posting updates and thoughts. I hope they can help someone else also.


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
spartanburg65
♂ New Member
Member # 42488
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Raw-

Thanks for sharing. I have followed your posts since I found the website. Our situations seem to be pretty similiar. How were you able to get the texts back from the Iphone? My WW and OM switched to trackfones in December and I found those messages before DDay but I would like to retrieve the Iphone ones as well.


BH 34 WW 33
DSs 4, 2
Dday 1/14/14
Confrontation 1/27/14
No Contact 2/2/14
TT over (I really believe) 2/26/14
9 month PA
Reconciling

Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Carolinas
RawDeal75
♂ New Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It is possible to retrieve photos, messages, attachments, call logs etc from an iPhone even if they have been deleted, just as long as the memory space has not been needed/used by something else (apps or files). I used a software called: Wondershare Dr.Fone for iOS, and it worked like a charm. Got most of it back, though some of it was corrupt and had the wrong dates.

Good luck!


Me: BH, 38. Her: WW, 38.
Two kids: 3 & 5.
Together 21 years. Married 13 years.
6 month EA, + 6 month PA, initiated and driven by WW. Discovered by accident on D-day (Jan 18, 2014)

Posts: 29 | Registered: Feb 2014
spartanburg65
♂ New Member
Member # 42488
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Raw -

Thanks.


BH 34 WW 33
DSs 4, 2
Dday 1/14/14
Confrontation 1/27/14
No Contact 2/2/14
TT over (I really believe) 2/26/14
9 month PA
Reconciling

Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Carolinas
Topic Posts: 78
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