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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N P D Thread - Part 13
Quakingaspen
♀ Member
Member # 41153
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

~dragging my cabana and maragarita fountain over~

Hello all!

K- Now that I think about it, it is definitely NPD, he would put "in-law" by the "daughter" but sign the card "The Other Dad". I just wrote it off as one of his -many- quirks.

Part of what makes me so much more confident in WH being NPD is the fact that I have long believed his father is. (How I could recognize it in my FIL and NOT WH is something I choose not to think too long about.) My MIL does not know, and although she divorced FIL 20 years ago, has never really recovered and is falling back into some serious ennabling for NPDWH. I feel kind of bad, but am letting her do that because it takes a lot of pressure off me. Besides, I don't know how I would go about telling her something like this.

Of my three kids, I do have one that has always had a difficult time grasping empathy. I've been doing empathy exercises, awareness, and social skills building since this one was very young and it seems to have helped quite a bit. This one has also been in therapy, and will continue to be for as long as it takes, under the dx "anxiety", although I plan to discuss my concerns with her therapist soon. I worry about the long term success. One of the clearest hallmarks to me is the way this child is an "angel" to people who are not in the family, but will bully, rage and tantrum at home to extremes. This is my NPD's favorite child.

My other two are extremely empathetic, but I think their experience with their other sibling will help keep them from becoming ennablers very easily.


The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be - and when they're not, we cry.~David Duchovny

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 120 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nekorb,
The first time I had heard NPD was from my psychiatrist who I was seeing at his (XNPD's) insistence because of my "mental problems" because I was "continually wrongfully accusing him of adultery and other horrible things" that he found to be "abusive".

After I pulled myself out of my pathetic state of denial, I threw him out of the house. He had been a police officer. He had been in lots of trouble over the years and had been suspended several times and eventually fired from the force. He claimed he had been "railroaded by a jealous sergeant". (everyone eles's fault, of course) During these suspensions he had been sent for psychological evaluations, etc. While going through his things after throwing him out, I found these evaluations. The diagnosis were there. Along with lots more information. It was sickening. I don't know how he was hired in the beginning. Somehow he slipped through the cracks.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 8:40 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7992 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
littlefoggy
♀ Member
Member # 41429
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One of the clearest hallmarks to me is the way this child is an "angel" to people who are not in the family, but will bully, rage and tantrum at home to extremes

My toddler can be like this. We have been going through some turmoil, obviously. How much of this is "toddler" and how much can be a red flag?

How early is too early for therapy?


Me: BW 30
WH 37
DDay 11/12/13
Divorcing

Posts: 486 | Registered: Nov 2013
littlefoggy
♀ Member
Member # 41429
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This one gets its own post.

He had been a police officer. He had been in lots of trouble over the years and had been suspended several times and eventually fired from the force. He claimed he had been "railroaded by a jealous sergeant". (everyone eles's fault, of course)

Oh, SadToo, I believe you may know my STBX? Mine was targeted by none other than the chief of police themself.

My STBX is not diagnosed. I won't make formal diagnosis as someone who is not trained to do so.

He does things. He has done things in the past. His actions echo the posts here almost word for word (see above, I really could have written that). It makes the goosebumps rise.

Also, treating him as NPD has made my life a smidge saner. Just a little. That is like saying the wind has let up in the middle of a hurricane.

I am operating on worst case scenario, I suppose. Safer that way. He scares the shit out of me.


Me: BW 30
WH 37
DDay 11/12/13
Divorcing

Posts: 486 | Registered: Nov 2013
Quakingaspen
♀ Member
Member # 41153
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My toddler can be like this. We have been going through some turmoil, obviously. How much of this is "toddler" and how much can be a red flag?

How early is too early for therapy?

littlefoggy - It is very unusual and undesirable to diagnose a child with a PD, and while I worry that my child may warrant a diagnosis, I am working through all other possibilities first.

Considering that you aredealing with a toddler, and that there is family turmoil, I would err on the side of caution and work with that as the cause until you can rule it out. Either way, the cause is less important with young children than dealing with the specific behaviors. I would look at the behavior more like a yellow flag than a red flag, meaning it is something to definitely address, but not necessarily a sign that they are destined to be NPD. Unconditional love and firm boundaries will benefit any child.

If you can get therapy for your child/children, consider it, especially if you have concerns about their behavior that you would like support for.


The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be - and when they're not, we cry.~David Duchovny

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 120 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
littlefoggy
♀ Member
Member # 41429
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry, Quakingaspen, I didn't mean red flag to insinuate a defined PD. More like that it was concern that needed to be addressed sooner (younger, earlier) rather than later.

The hallmark you described just struck a chord with me. We are both still adjusting to our new life as a duo. It is hard to distinguish normal development in the toddler stage from coping with the disruptions in her life.

I do want to get her in therapy as soon as she is developmentally ready for it. I am just not sure when that will be. I will ask my IC next session, and see what he says.

[This message edited by littlefoggy at 11:33 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


Me: BW 30
WH 37
DDay 11/12/13
Divorcing

Posts: 486 | Registered: Nov 2013
Quakingaspen
♀ Member
Member # 41153
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No worries littlefoggy. The behavior is worth concern and being addressed. During the toddler years, though, it could be any number of things from different reactions to different environments and people, to reacting to the tension in the home. I wouldn't worry about it being anything bigger at this point. You are obviously a very caring parent.

I am concerned personally that my desire to get as far away as possible from NPDH will affect my relationship with my child, so I have to be careful to separate them, and not fall into the trap of linking them too closely. I am sure nothing can be done to help WH, but I have to have hope for my child.


The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be - and when they're not, we cry.~David Duchovny

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 120 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 5:01 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My XH wasn't officially diagnosed by a professional, but it was suggested by the mc who saw us twice and me for another year after he left.

She got to read his emails and listen to our conversations-she suggested NPD.


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4850 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
cantaccept
♀ Member
Member # 37451
Default  Posted: 5:32 PM, February 19th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wh was never diagnosed formally. I don't even need the diagnoses, the label.

I just look at the behavior, the behavior is unacceptable no matter what the label is.

Although MC/IC stated that he was emotionally immature and had narcissistic traits.

It doesn't even matter.

Lack of empathy.
Rages.
Irrational anger.
Projecting.
Blame shifting.
Disposing of people (not just me but a lifelong pattern)
"true love"
Inability to discuss problems, or to take even the kindest of criticism.
Wall of concrete.
Manipulation.

Through all of my reading, he sounds like it. I only know that it hurt me and that is enough.

I worry about my oldest son. Lots of the same signs. My other sons see it too. We all seem to have adopted the same tactics with him. Love him but don't be vulnerable, be on guard.


Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely.

I would now like to be known as Can!

dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
wh boots5050
attempted R, it was all a lie

divorcing


Posts: 1250 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Connecticut
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In ancient times, well before the advent of psychiatry, in the days of wattle-and-daub, these types were probably called out and shunned by tribe with; "THEE IS ONE GIANT HITHER-PART" - "GO HIE THEE OVER YON MOUNTAIN - AWAY!" - "AND TAKE THY WATTLE-AND-DAUB-SPANKER WITH THEE!"

Today it's; "We don't need no steenking diagnosis!"
CANbabe is correct!
IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
(Don't get hung up on 'appeal-to-authority' nonsense. Trust thy gut!)

Besides, we got caulk.

"Golden child" (good one cg!) can be entitled princesses/princes...spoiled brats...but the dark pets we are dealing with have emotional abuse or abandonment (BY the dark pets) besides. Watch for those elements twirling in the mix.
It's sad and troubling, and often infuriating to me that we are the ones (you are, actually) who are left to manage the dregs.
It is still about boundaries though - it always will be.
A beautiful blogpost about how boundaries can be "freeing" here:

http://drbrianmattson.com/journal/2013/11/21/chess-true-freedom

So...yesterday I was at the pet store buying a large bag of dog chow and in the checkout line, some lady behind me asked if I had a dog.

Thinking; “No, I have a giraffe”, on impulse I told her; “No, I don’t have a dog, I’m starting the Kibble Diet again.”

I told her I probably shouldn't, because I ended up in the hospital last time...I'd lost 50 pounds before I awakened in intensive care with tubes coming out of most of my orifices and IV in both arms.

I told her that it was essentially a perfect diet and the way that it works is to load your pants pockets with kibbles and simply eat one or two every time you feel hungry. The food is nutritionally complete so it works well and I was going to try it again. (I have to mention here that practically everyone in line was now enthralled with my story.)

Horrified, she asked if I ended up in intensive care because the dog food poisoned me.

I told her; “No, I stepped off a curb to sniff a Doberman’s ass and a car hit us both.”

I thought the guy behind her was going to have a heart attack he was laughing so hard.

The pet store won't let me shop there anymore.


Posts: 6423 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
littlefoggy
♀ Member
Member # 41429
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OMG jj. You crack me up.


Me: BW 30
WH 37
DDay 11/12/13
Divorcing

Posts: 486 | Registered: Nov 2013
Quakingaspen
♀ Member
Member # 41153
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Classic, jj! People can be so gullible. I love it!

Ugh. Got sucked into conversation via email. For some reason, since he so kindly decided to move out, I keep hoping that he will wake up and realize D is inevitable and that he should go along.

Instead, he said it (D) is the worst thing that could ever happen to us. I commented (why why why why) that as far as I am concerned, the worst has already happened, and as usual I am left to pick up the pieces and do what is best for everyone. Frankly, I felt like I had him there and that he wouldn't respond.

Instead, I got a front row ticket to the biggest email pity party of the season. He played such highlights as "I'm pretty unhappy living up here by myself" and talking to me or our older children is "hard, tedious, and almost always makes me feel worse after trying."

How much more is it going to take for me to just remember and not go to him for these reminders that his asshat is permanent?


The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be - and when they're not, we cry.~David Duchovny

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 120 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jj that needed a spew alert!

LMAO. Heading to the pet store after visiting the sand box!


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4850 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Compartmented
Member
Member # 29410
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm wondering if everyone's WS had an "official" diagnosis of NPD or if some of you are here because you see the traits or a counselor has suggested your WA is NPD but they aren't qualified to actually diagnose them, etc.
Our marriage counselor said he felt X was "narcissistic with sociopathic tendencies". I was shocked that he went that far as he hadn't been giving us labels at all.

For awhile FT-X was embracing the narcissist label for himself to excuse his activities. At the time I thought, he doesn't know what that really means. Now I wonder if he thought that being incredibly selfish (narcissism in his mind) was better to admit to than what he really fears is inside.


Posts: 1207 | Registered: Aug 2010
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quaking, it takes as long as it takes. The good news, it won't take as long as being (NPD) unaware could take. Being aware and having that awareness validated each and every time helps us to move on.

Just another step away from where he stands, waiting for you to come to your senses. <<<< that's the picture I keep in my head.

Hugs,
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4850 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ Jj, You have to get off that doggie Xanax.

On the official diagnosis; It is UNcommon to have an official diagnosis. NPD's won't willing go off to a therapist/psychiatris's office to "find out what is wrong with them" or the relationship. There is NOTHING wrong with them. It's everyone else's fault (mostly ours)

Usually the only way an NPD gets a diagnosis is through a court ordered evaluation or as in my situation, they are forced into an evaluation by their job.

Over the years, I have found the best way to "diagnose" an NPD is by the symptoms of their victims.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7992 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
FindMyselfAgain
♀ Member
Member # 36969
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((Tribe))

The past week has been...weird, for lack of a better word. I am more confused than ever, but also more at peace than I have been in a very long time.

WH certainly fits the profile of NPD. Absolutely, no doubt in my mind about that! The abuse and manipulation spanning the entirety of our relationship is so blatantly obvious.

Except...this past week has been so very different. It started with a ridiculous argument Wed. evening. You know the type, I'm sure. Started over a small purchase I was planning to make (that he had previously been okay with), he said I would need to wait, I said okay...but I stupidly asked why. Then, instead of actually just telling me he made a mistake in calculating finances when he originally told me to go ahead, he throws around a bunch of insults and attacks. Blah, blah, blah...you all know how these things go. You've been there. I've seen the same types of arguments/conversations in nearly all our stories here.

Anyway.
Wed. night when I went to bed, I just looked at him and felt such pity for him that he was so broken he would rather start a huge fight than admit to a mistake that anyone could make. I took his hand in mine, looked him in the eyes and said two things, both met with silence.

1. You're losing me. Do you care?
2. I'm giving up on you. Do you care?

Then, I rolled over and went to sleep. Apparently, he did not sleep so easy. I did not know this then, as I just didn't care. So over all the crazy he has served up to me and expected me to not only dine on, but to give accolades for his excellence. Just done dealing with it. I mean, I'm getting my things in order to take care of me and my kids without him anyway; I didn't care how what I said affected him or even if it would. But I have been so damn stressed living this double life, I had to say something. I simply couldn't keep silent. (Though, as I rolled over to go to sleep I was telling myself in my head "Stop engaging. Stop. Stop. Stop...")

Well, when he got home from work Thursday he put a movie on that DD has been wanting to watch then asked me if he could talk to me. I said "say something if you have something to say." He responded with,"No. I mean really talk. Please." I sighed, I guess. He called me on it. He said, "I don't deserve it, but I would appreciate it. Really appreciate it this time, not just tell you I do." And we talked. Well...he did a lot of talking.

There have been specific things that I have asked of him in the past to help me heal from our shared past. He has been big on arguing the validity of my requests. If it was not something he saw as important, then it wasn't. In one day he tackled a few of the things I had already given up on. He tackled the requests that I know had to have been hardest for him, because they involved exposing his negative behaviors to others (that he knows/sees regularly) while making requests for help to do right for me. Don't want to get into specifics, but will say that even when asking him (some things years ago) I don't think I ever actually expected him to follow through with any of these, because it actually means dealing with and cleaning up the messes he has created. I was shocked into silence. And I usually have a response (even if I don't speak it) to anything he says.

He has been so...different (really, I'm at a loss for the right word) since then. He has been opening up about...oh my gosh...anything, everything. It is so surreal. Because it is not the over-the-top gonna make it all good cause I'm the hero type crapola. It is almost like dealing with a real, normal person.

There's so much more...so much more. But I've got a stupid cold, and it's messing with my vision. Need away from the screen for a bit.

But first.
He said that Wed. when I rolled over it hit him. I am the only one who has not given up on him. The only one. Including himself. He said he is afraid. That he always thought he was so strong, but he has always been afraid. He said he was drawn to my strength, but also intimidated and jealous of it. He looked at me as he was saying this and had this puzzled/confused/shocked expression and then said, "Oh my God! I have been trying to steal your strength and replace it with my fear this whole time, haven't I?"

Really need a nap or something, but I have to ask...can this be real? Can a NPD become self-aware and work at healing himself?


DDay: October 7, 2011
R finally started in earnest: April 2014

Posts: 165 | Registered: Sep 2012
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, they can and do have moments of clarity. It's the follow through that's the problem.

*edited because of stupid auto correct*

[This message edited by sadtoo at 11:04 AM, February 20th (Thursday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7992 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He has been so...different (really, I'm at a loss for the right word) since then. He has been opening up about...oh my gosh...anything, everything. It is so surreal. Because it is not the over-the-top gonna make it all good cause I'm the hero type crapola. It is almost like dealing with a real, normal person.

He said that Wed. when I rolled over it hit him. I am the only one who has not given up on him. The only one. Including himself. He said he is afraid. That he always thought he was so strong, but he has always been afraid. He said he was drawn to my strength, but also intimidated and jealous of it. He looked at me as he was saying this and had this puzzled/confused/shocked expression and then said, "Oh my God! I have been trying to steal your strength and replace it with my fear this whole time, haven't I?"

Yes, my husband said all of these sorts of things. They were a little more coherent though - that I was a better, stronger person than him. That his FOO didn't give him the life skills to be as strong and good as me. That I was the only one who really ever loved him, etc. etc. etc.

I could go on and on. My STBX is brilliant, so he always put on a good show at the ELEVENTH HOUR. Note the timing. Always, always note the timing. It's key with a NPD. It's also key with codependent spouses who are ready to leave, and then get drawn back in just in the nick of time.

In fact, during a recent deposition, the lawyers confronted my STBX with emails full of this stuff and asked him if it was true. He looked me straight in the eye and said, "No, I was just trying to manipulate her."

I was MORTIFIED that I had been stupid and gullible enough to believe such drivel in the first place. The attorneys looked like they wanted to laugh/cry/pity me all at once.

You can't make this stuff up.


Posts: 1586 | Registered: Oct 2011
bent44
♀ Member
Member # 31386
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, February 20th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can a NPD become self-aware and work at healing himself?

Yes, they can to an extent.

They can also stack the cards in their favor when we wise up and draw boundaries and hit their fear button. Especially when we do it calmly.

I am a veteran cynic when it comes to this brand of crazy, so take this jaded post with that caveat.

Only time and ACTIONS, not words will tell.

Advising cautious optimism at best.

Coming from one who has experienced more of possibility 2 than possibility 1....I truly hope yours is possibility one.

[This message edited by bent44 at 2:01 PM, February 20th (Thursday)]


"If you marry a chicken, don't expect an eagle."


I don't know if my chicken will ever become an eagle. But rest assured, I'm going to be a phoenix. Nevermind that I am still in the ashes stage of the process.

Update...he


Posts: 674 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: California
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