then isn't being untrustwothy also a choice that is made
I don't know a remorseful wayward that would claim anything but...
That's where the leap comes into play....haven't stepped off the ledge yet. I am in the trust but verify stage. I have always been a welcoming, trusting person-don't want to lose that, but I don't think I will ever trust him with the same freedom as before. Maybe 99% but don't think we'll ever get 100%.
Fast forward to her A. First couple interactions (2-3 meetings perhaps) between her and her fAP were linked to her coping mechs.....but she quickly moved into very conscious, very intentional in nature.
So choices were certainly made throughout my wife's journey to affair land......just some of them had "hidden motivation" underneath them.
Intentional choices that had destructive results were being made by my wife with her full knowledge of what it was doing to me well before any DD.
She sat with me in anxiety therapy, saw me struggling trying to find, expose and work on what was the source of my anxiety....an elusive search as I had no idea my wife was in an affair at the time.....choosing to let me struggle knowing her A was a BIG factor in what I was struggling about.
So, in my sitch, the "slippery slope" was really only a couple of days long....my wife intentionally choosing infidelity quite quickly and eagerly.
It is from that vantage point that I believe infidelity has a VERY short "innocent" phase.....quickly moves into "intentional" phases.....no matter how many lies and justifications a WS use, they are very quickly aware of the choices they have avaiable to them and the ones they choose to make.
God be with us all.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:57 PM, February 20th (Thursday)]
Trust is the result of evidence
Now come to find out he tried to seduce a friend after the first 3 years,
While engaged, my wife kept a relationship with another man a secret....I discovered via an open email.
2 yrs into our M, this same man was still a thought in her head.....no known communication, but still a factor, still influencing her at some level.
And this mode of operation is part of her "why".
Now.....she is actively working on this component. I have seen noticeable changes in her that tell me she is willing and able to do this. Trustworthy actions , choices.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:11 PM, February 20th (Thursday)]
then isn't being untrustwothy also a choice that is made?" If this is the case then this alone would confirm that affairs are not just something that happened or took place (as so many WS's attest
Oh yes.....I remember my first month on this journey. Wife was the poster girl of "I just don't know how this happened....I never meant for it to happen.....it just......did.".
If this weren't so damn painful.....I would find what I have observed by both my wife and I ....... laughable ?
We both thought what we were experiencing was so unique, so not like all the other M's affected by adultery.
19 months out......I can't complete a single thought NOW with anything unique to us. We are textbook.
God have mercy on us all.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:43 PM, February 20th (Thursday)]
Sometimes we have to extend trust - letting our teen go out in the evening, all the while our mind is going over the 1,000 ways they could end up in trouble. At some point (probably about the time they reach retirement age) we begin to actually trust that they aren't going to do any crazy teenage things.
I could say I am extending trust to my WH in that I don't check up on him all the time; I expect him to take over the "vigilance" for his behavior. But do I trust him to always do the right thing? Not yet. Not yet. Still too much of a work in progress for him to grow up at age 59, too many circuits that he needs to retrain in his brain.
ETA: Wish I had read Chicho's post before I posted! He said the same thing I meant to say, much more succinctly!
[This message edited by Lyonesse at 6:48 PM, February 20th (Thursday)]
The ONE event he talks of is actually a series of choices (6 weeks worth) that he deliberately made KNOWING it was completely wrong on all levels. Having the a and kicking me in the gut as well as kicking his best friend in the gut by making the choice to sleep with his wife. So yes, the short innocent phase of the a was most likely the very first day. Anything after than was planned out. It was at that point that the choice to be untrustworty was put into action.
me (WW/BS): 48
4 kiddos in mid 20's
The conditions we face do not define us. They remind us of who we are and who we want to be.
I think the decision to trust is a result of my own perception of the evidence. I canít see how trust can be anything other than a decision. Sisoon pointed out earlier that the choice might not always be a conscious one and I agree. I think thatís how I operated most of my life before the betrayal. Whether itís in my conscious thought or not, I think itís a decision I make based on the best evidence I have and my perception based on my life experience.
At some point the decision to trust is a leap of faith (unless you are cursed/blessed with the ability to see the future).
I came to a realisation a couple of months ago that if I am going to be happy in this marriage, then I have to bring something to it (my fWS can't be expected to do all the heavy lifting in R) what I have to bring to our R is my trust. Basically, I have to take a leap of faith if I want to be happy. I could go on obsessing, stressing and worrying... but then I wouldn't be happy and neither would fWS. Obviously the measure of trust I am willing to extend depends on whether my fWS is behaving in a trustworthy fashion - it's a two-way street. He is giving me no cause for alarm, so I am tryingto trust.
I was doing really well with this until a couple of days ago when I settled into a funk (resulting in my post yesterday)... I'm battling to pick myself up out of it, but I know that I am going to have to if our R is going to continue to be successful. What I have noticed is that I cope pretty well with all of this as long as life is going along steadily, the moment there are external stresses my "wheels come off" and I go into a decline.
I kind of thought I had my opinion on trust all sewn up until I read some of the responses to this post, now I have more food for thought. The whole faith versus trust thing has me thinking....
I gave her my trust, though, based on my gut feel. That was choice, probably due to my chemical response to her. It was a choice - no amount of evidence could justify the amount of trust I gave her.
It turned out that my trust was misplaced.
After D-Day, she was committed to R. She was probably even more committed to ending her A, to NC, and to never betraying anybody again.
I could have trusted her then. She was trustworthy all along after D-Day - no lies, dodging relatively few issues (no one's perfect), etc.
I could have trusted her a year out, 2 years out. I trust her now, but I could still withhold my trust.
I trust her even though I know she could betray me again, no matter what her goals are.
Consider this: generally, the older and more used/exercised a physical thing is, the closer it is to failing. Why do we think the more trustworthy a person is, the more likely that person is to stay trustworthy?
That's some of what I mean by 'trust is always a choice'.
[This message edited by sisoon at 9:14 AM, February 21st (Friday)]
[This message edited by 2B1again at 12:36 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)]
I think the decision to trust is a result of my own perception of the evidence.
However, I assess evidence differently now...I pay more attention to actions, consistencies, history, body language, emotions, and understanding people's potential motives. I take it all in with my eyes wide open.....and I follow through when possible, validate, check, test, -especially in the beginning, -especially if the risk is very high.....and I have improved my knowledge of all this as a means to strengthen myself, protect myself, and reduce my risk of failing.
Good or bad, my equation for trusting has become much complicated. I often find myself judging people or worrying about something I need not, and reaching a conclusion that I do not need to trust, the risk is low, or ensuring success is not worth the energy. I reach the conclusion that I should just move on, stopping worry about it, and to just enjoy my decision because I WILL BE OK, regardless. I believe this is the Leap of faith part.
I very much appreciate fWS's thoughts and feelings as I have such a thirst to know about what takes place pre, during, and post A inside their minds. I have this same desire to look inside my mind....but that task is obviously easier.
Through lots of work on why adultery is painful on all involved but "traumatic level" for the BS....it is apparent the lone fact of utter, intentional betrayal forced upon the BS is the main component to that.
Your paragraph-length post captured so much of my reality.....a reality that was formed through lots of IC, processing through PTSD-like syndromes, prayer and reading.
Still-living.....your comments are welcoming as well. I did have blind trust of my wife pre-A. I did choose to do that and believed it was warranted. I now see co-dependency issues within me that made that choice a more comfortable one as well.
I, like you, are choosing to see more. Sure, bright light of reality that my wife commuted adultery MADE me see more....but I could have reverted back to my FOO coping mechs if I wanted to.
Couple days ago my wife said f-you to me several times in a conversation hardly warranting it. While I was hurt by her anger, I read her body language. Her words said I did something wrong....her body said something else.
I was able to stop my knee- jerk reaction of thinking "my wife's anger is about me " and react differently. I asked her to explain....she couldn't at the time but later, did.
Point is....while I miss the trust I had in my wife pre-A I am starting to enjoy my new "vision".
God be with us all.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:02 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)]
Slightly off topic here but we talk about the need to observe change in our WS to gain trust. We know change is needed. We look for it. We feel more comfortable when we see "change". Change is needed in our equation of trust.
Anyways, my wife came home yesterday angry about a blatant error SHE made at work. Her error could have been catastrophic. She complained about snow days, disruptions, being short timed, others not having their stuff together, and how she was hurried. I said, "You have trouble accepting when you are wrong. You find ways to blame others and then be angry at them. It makes you feel better." Guess what........she got extremely mad at me. She called me a physio analyst (thank you!) etc., etc., etc.,.....and she blamed me! Buzzzer. I'm sorry. You failed. I let her stew in it for an hour to make this topic more important to her.
Then we discussed it. Topic #1: anger is a mask for fear. Good luck seeing me back off when you are angry. Topic #2, why not be happy that you caught the error? Topic #3, why do you take this approach of blaming others??
[This message edited by still-living at 8:48 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)]