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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Losing Hope of R
mystified1970
♀ Member
Member # 36291
Frustrated  Posted: 4:51 AM, February 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Feeling like a broken record. Hearing the same responses to my statements of what I need in this process.

Communication breakdown was, in my mind, a huge problem for us and remains as such. He closes off, shuts down, ignores specific questions, yadda, yadda. That behavior, in the past, resulted in his CL postings, use of prostitutes, ONS's, and probably more.

He is finding help for himself through religion and while I am glad for him that he finds peace and comfort in that way, it's not helping me heal. He just resents the fact that his religious observance and study does nothing for me.

My pain and anger are very fresh. First Dday was 2011. Last A I found out about was around 2 months ago (EDIT - that affair was actually a prostitute and it happened almost a year ago, I only found out about it 2 months ago). Just this past week it's come out that he indeed, did not use condoms.

Today, he said he will see a different therapist and he's doing it for me. When I asked him if he felt it wasn't going to be helpful, when I asked anymore questions about it, all I get back is, "Nothing is ever good enough for you! I said I will go for you!" I guess it's the narcissist in him that just can't really wrap his head around the work he needs to do and what his role is in helping me heal.

Am I wrong, that he hasn't done jack squat to help me heal, considering that he's been TTing for three years? And that much of those truths I had to hunt for myself or drag out of him?

I want to not lash out. I want to not be angry and say some of the things that come out but for the love of all that is holy, I just need to full truth and it's been three years, and things are still coming to light.

Why do I keep this going? What the hell is wrong with me? Not sure how much longer I can hold on to hope.

[This message edited by mystified1970 at 7:39 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


heavy sigh

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Asia
eachdayisvictory
♀ Member
Member # 40462
Default  Posted: 6:38 AM, February 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm so sorry for what you're going through.

I know for me, I turned a corner when I made preparations to be on my own. It gave me a strength and confidence to demand what I needed from my H and my M. I changed some paperwork legally, but more importantly, got ready in my head to be on my own.

The only way I can feel good about my choice to stay, is to know that it is MY choice everyday. That I can and am able to be ok on my own if that's what needs to happen. Only then was I able to figure out what I can honestly accept in my relationship, and what will be a dealbreaker. I have also written it all down, discussed it with my H, and am genuinely ready to end my M at any time our contract is broken.

Having said that, I would also add that this change in my attitude along with serious efforts to make my H feel loved in ways I have never done before, has made the best relationship we have ever had. We are happy because we work at being happy together every day. And I am willing to do that work for the rest of my life, as long as our requirements are met.

Be good to yourself, start looking at what you want that has nothing to do with your WS, but honours you. It will give you strength to find these things.


me, BW: 34
FWH: 35
Dday: Feb 2013
LTA for 2+years
children: 2 boys age 3 and 6
Reconciling

Posts: 379 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: nova Scotia, Canada
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, February 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((mystified1970)))

Gently.....if his last A ended 2 months ago you are too early into this to consider R, IMHO.

When a WS continues to actively choose adultery instead of their M they are NOT candidates to receive the gift of R .....so don't even go shopping for it........yet.

Each DD restarts the healing time.

It is also not the time to file for D....but contact an attorney.....first consult is free. That will help YOU.

At this point you both need to help YOURSELF....he needs to help himself AND you.

Get the book. "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair." You both will benefit from it.

Communication breakdown was, in my mind, a huge problem for us and remains as such. He closes off, shuts down, ignores specific questions, yadda, yadda. That behavior, in the past, resulted in his CL postings, use of prostitutes, ONS's, and probably more.

Totally agree ..... Lots of couples have com issues....but some WS's close themselves off, shut down their feelings from themselves that they themselves don't even feel them....certainly not at the level to deal with or express them. And this is a big reason why one spouse can choose adultery and the other doesn't. Both in the same struggling M, but different choices are considered by each person involved.

....ignoring, denying, burying feelings does NOT mean their effects on the person doing this are immune from their affects.....it just enables them to be blind to the fact that they ARE influenced by them. And in very subtle , very destructive ways. I actually think they are slightly more aware of this than my simple statements let on....but this is as good as I can express at this time .


Glad husband is in IC. Glad he is working on his relationship with God.

The defensiveness you are observing has about as much to do with you as you had to do with his affairs.....zero.

This is him avoiding taking responsibility, him testing the water to see how much of his old destructive ways he can bring into the new marriage he SAYS he wants to construct with you, this is him avoiding painful feelings that are results of his actions.

19 months out here.....lots of $$$$ in therapy, 25 plus books read, intentional relationship with God, countless prayers have contributed to my vision improvement.

My wife is seeing more each month.

You are improving too.

It takes work.....it is tiring. I tried in vane to do my wife's work for her ....some she never asked for but some of this desire within me was a result of a destructive co-dependent pattern that we were both comfortable with .

She shutting down, me questing what she needed.....I would guess right just enough to keep us both from growing. She would be comforted just enough to keep us both from growing.

This was a way of life for our M for 15 years. It was NOT the cause of my wife's affair .... That was her own brokenness and it was there before I said "hi" to her 22 years ago.

Your husband, like all WS's must show a strong commitment to finding his own "why"....and that search is VERY independent of his other "must" for R to be offer..... He must take full responsibility for the consequences of his actions.

You are growing. Your M can R.

Keep the faith.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:34 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3685 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
mystified1970
♀ Member
Member # 36291
Default  Posted: 4:33 AM, February 23rd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies.

Clarification - the affair I found out about 2 months ago actually took place several months prior. I do believe he has at least been A free for about 8 months.

We are legally divorced but our do not have a Jewish divorce and that is more important to me than a civil marriage or divorce.

I left the home July 2012 and live overseas. Had I not left, I am fairly certain none of the truth would have ever come out and if it had, while I was in his presence, well, I'd rather not think about that!


The defensiveness you are observing has about as much to do with you as you had to do with his affairs.....zero.

This is him avoiding taking responsibility,

him testing the water to see how much of his old destructive ways he can bring into the new marriage
he SAYS he wants to construct with you, this is him avoiding painful feelings that are results of his actions.

I needed to see that written here. Thank you!

Today I decided on deal breakers. Really, the deal breaker, aside from another A, is not getting on the path toward healing, NOW.

We are three years out from DD #1. I've waited and hoped for the full truth to come out all this time. I am not waiting for him anymore. It's either in or out and initially, on my terms which include coming here and reading, reading The Seat of the Soul, IC with a new, male therapist and having open communication about what he has learned.

About that making him feel loved thing...I believe he would tell anyone that I bent over backwards to make him feel loved. He didn't love himself so nothing I did, no matter how hard I tried, mattered. I've gone to extremes to show him, tell him, share with him how much I love and adore him. He has been the center of my universe for 1/3 of my life. I gave him everything and he knows that and acknowledges that.

What I haven't done is communicate effectively. That I need to work on and I need for him to work on Our communication with me.

Here's hoping....as that's about all I have left.

Thanks again for your replies. It helps so much to have this feedback.


heavy sigh

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Asia
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, February 23rd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He didn't love himself so nothing I did, no matter how hard I tried, mattered. I've gone to extremes to show him, tell him, share with him how much I love and adore him

Something I read about over a year ago came up in therapy last week.....it directly ties to your statement.

A person has to be open to receiving love to feel loved. I did loving things for and with my wife this past weekend. A result was anger from my wife towards me..... Complete with "f- you" words thrown at me. I thought it odd.....so we talked about it in therapy.

When I brought it up my wife was surprised...she had pushed that feeling away....thought it had run it's course and was not worthy of further exploration. Had we NOT had a therapist, I don't see us having a discussion in this. I would request, my wife would say "you talk things to death....leave it alone already." That is our pattern. To be fair, I would be limited in my contributions to these exploratory conversations too....I would not like rejection so I would drop that conversation, but I want a relationship so I would engage on something else with similar responses from my wife.....co-dependency cycle again.

Love is an action. Love is a choice.

At some point I believe a WS chooses to stop loving their spouse. They may resume loving them immediately after their last interaction with their AP, but while his dick was in her mouth....my wife was NOT choosing to love me or our family.....unprotected sex with another WITHOUT any discussion about STD's or sexual past does not scream "love" to me.

But....

Do they choose to love another? Maybe.

Do they choose destructive actions out of LACK of love for themselves? Maybe. Heard a testimony from a woman that sleeps with other men because she lacks love for herself.

How do the love of their children, and those in the other family that is destroyed NOT trump their own desires...how does the "easy love" we have for children NOT factor into their world in sufficient quantity so as to derail their over-powering intention?

There is much of the WS mindset I don't understand. There are many factors inside a WS's mind that make adultery an "option of choice".

My wife sat on the fence for months....knowing her AP was no longer an option....but not committed to me or our family. It was at this time complete "shattering" within me took place. It was a healthy but painful time for me. It needed to take place.

Now, we are at a spot where I am growing on my own, observing my wife.

This recent therapy has me curious and a bit anxious. My wife thinking her anger was already dealt with is concerning. I saw it as a flag when it happened.....wife had resigned herself that this was just who she was--no further investigation needed.

This is a direct tie to pre -A patterns she used.

I am hopeful too. She did recognize this is an area to study.....I also reacted differently too. That gives me hope that R can continue.

It only takes one to change a relationship!

It DOES take two willing to change to R a marriage.

How is your WS exploring his "whys"?

God be with you both.


[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:26 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3685 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
HUFI-PUFI
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, February 23rd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mystified1970 - Am I wrong, that he hasn't done jack squat to help me heal, considering that he's been TTing for three years?

You are right in saying that he is not doing all he can to help you heal however, given that it seems that you, as a couple, are not jointly working to R,but then again, what exactly do you expect him to do?

The reason, I ask that question is because in your other post, you clearly identify yourself as divorced and not living together at all.

mystified1970 - We are legally divorced ... I left the home July 2012 and live overseas.

Whether or not he merely regrets getting caught or is truly remorseful, a WS's ability to be supportive and capable of open and honest communication really doesn't depend only on their desire for it but also hinges on their personal ability and sometimes, the status of the relationship.

Since you are divorced,he has no legal obligation to help you heal. Yes, he has a moral one but then again, he's the broken WS who already has shown that he has a weak grasp on morality and ethics, so what do you expect? After two years of long distance relationship as a divorcee, are you really hopeful for R?

Gently said, I think you need to come to terms that he is never going to give you what you want. You will not get closure on his why and wherefore. So, if that's the reality, then you need to accept that and find a way to move beyond, with or without him. IMHO, it appears quite apparent that your healing will only take place without him.

Find a therapist that can help you in this goal. I think that holding onto this will only result in increasing bitterness. And you don't want that. You don't deserve that. You should focusing on your own healing and on your own accomplishments instead of focusing on his mistakes and his failures.

HUFI


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3265 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, February 23rd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't understand what you want - R or a get.

It sounds like your partially-XH spends at least part of the time in the Victim role in the Drama Triangle, and that won't work. If he changes C's for you, I just don't see him making any changes. But what is it to you whether or not he changes?

Why won't he give you a get? Doesn't his Rabbi tell him he needs to deliver it?

What I haven't done is communicate effectively.

What do you want to communicate to him?

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:39 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10098 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
mystified1970
♀ Member
Member # 36291
Default  Posted: 6:44 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((blakesteele)) I think your wife is the female version of my husband. Throughout our entire relationship I could be the epitome of a doting wife, wake him up in a very loving way, spend a lovely day together and boom...all hell would break loose from him. It would blow my mind and I never, ever got used to it.


he's the broken WS who already has shown that he has a weak grasp on morality and ethics, so what do you expect? After two years of long distance relationship as a divorcee, are you really hopeful for R?
((HUFI-PUFI)), yes, I am still hopeful but also realistic. I believe in his ability and willingness to change. It's just a slow, arduous process. Pretty sure he and I both know that this long distance was an absolute necessity. Had I stayed, he would have self destructed and brought me down with him. The financial ramifications alone would have destroyed any shred of hope I would have had. He knew I needed financial independence and that honestly, he didn't deserve to have me at his side.


((sissoon)) Neither of us wants a get. We genuinely don't want that divorce. To me, the vows we made under the chuppa will always be more important than any civil, legal obligation. The only reason I filed for civil divorce was because he kept pestering me about it during the year we were still living under the same roof, but apart. Ultimately it was best for legal/financial reasons. My credit, my finances are stable and in order and I need that for my own personal security.

I want to communicate to him, and I think he may have gotten the message a day or so ago, that this can't go on like this. In order to reconcile, full truth must be revealed and he must take the steps necessary to begin anew within himself. I want him to understand that we are not rebuilding, but building a new relationship and that the old ways are not going to be a part of the new relationship.

In all the time we've been thousands of miles apart I've never felt divorced or not connected to him. I believe he's felt the same way, even when he was at his all time lows. He's got a lot of stuff to get real about within himself.

Unfortunately, returning to the actual state we lived in is not an option for me. Too many triggers. Our home was desecrated. When I've been there to visit, every road we drive down I wonder if it was that motel, or that one. Knowing we bought our first home there together and all the while, I'm busy fluffing the nest, totally unknowing to the A's he'd already had and the ads he was posting, seeking out more. :( So, yeah, not going back there to live, ever. We both have a strong desire to make a home in the country where he was born and I have a job prospect there next school year. Hoping by then R will actually be a reality for us and we could start fresh there.

Again, thank you all for your questions, advice, suggestions and reflection.

You are growing. Your M can R.
Hoping so!


heavy sigh

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Asia
mystified1970
♀ Member
Member # 36291
Default  Posted: 6:52 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BTW, I think I just figured out that (((this))) is a virtual hug, amiright? Was just using it to highlight names but hey, hugs all around, if that is indeed the case!


heavy sigh

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Asia
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:14 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((blakesteele)) I think your wife is the female version of my husband. Throughout our entire relationship I could be the epitome of a doting wife, wake him up in a very loving way, spend a lovely day together and boom...all hell would break loose from him. It would blow my mind and I never, ever got used to it.

Yes, this is how that weekend rolled. My motivations were honest and pure....I was choosing love, it felt right, and I sincerely wanted to do them for healthy reasons. Books, therapists, the bible and my pastor support these actions.....I know they CAN build intimacy and convey love.....but not always. Did this fail for us because of me....a factor of me (the giver) in how I gave it (working on projects and helping wife set up for a trade show) or how she received it? A combo of both????

I can now look back to other outings and occurrences where our interactions resembled this as well.

However, I have my own FOO issues and selfish tendencies that were "intimacy limiting" in nature too.....so no saint.

Kicker is we were both fairly ignorant to our interactions, internal motivations and influences were largely unrecognized.

After 19 months of therapy, weekend retreats, prayer and lots of reading I was hoping NOT to see such a strong tie to our old interactions.

Like I said.....I take comfort in the fact that I recognized it early enough so as NOT to return f-you with f-you statements....and that my wife recognizes this as a study area.

Still.... It hurts. To be rejected and attacked only to realize it was my own kind acts that precipitated that rejection and attack. Which is why I brought it up in therapy.

Thanks for the cyber hug.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:18 AM, February 24th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3685 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
karmahappens
♀ Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, February 24th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi mystified

I think your situation is so painful. To wait and wait and have a WS not get it is frustrating, at best.

In order to change one has to see the need for it and want to do it.

Your husband has been TTing you for three years. Shows no sign of caring for your healing and no sign that he is interested in his own.


Am I wrong, that he hasn't done jack squat to help me heal, considering that he's been TTing for three years? And that much of those truths I had to hunt for myself or drag out of him?

You ARE not wrong, there comes a time when we have to face the truth. Your husband is going to a new IC FOR YOU...TO MAKE YOU HAPPY...do you get the under-lying message here? "she is making me do this, I have to...she wants this..."

Those reasons do not make self healing a priority. It gets tiring when you set a goal you have to reach for someone else. You lose interest.

Until one sees the need in changing themselves, their own flaws, their own broken they won't get it.

I don't want to ever say someone can't R, but I do think at some point one has to let it go and let the other party fend completely for themselves. Focus on you and your path and let him go the direction he chooses...without your dragging him there. It will be telling to see if he ever chooses healing without you making him do it..

(((hugs))) to you and strength...it's a tough spot to be in.


ďAnd the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossomĒ
AnaÔs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3805 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
mystified1970
♀ Member
Member # 36291
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You ARE not wrong, there comes a time when we have to face the truth. Your husband is going to a new IC FOR YOU...TO MAKE YOU HAPPY...do you get the under-lying message here? "she is making me do this, I have to...she wants this..."

I do get that, which is why I shared it here. It was quote a revelation for me. I think it was a changing point in myself as it revealed that he doesn't see IC as something that will help him.
These past few weeks so many things have come to light in my mind. Realizing that he's never been honest with his therapist, let alone me!

It's just mind blowing to me, that we say in his therapists office, discussing his A's, all the while, he hadn't even told her the full truth.

I guess that he has spent so much of his life harboring lies, secrets and deviant behaviors that outing himself to anyone is a HUGE roadblock in R, for us. It's actually a brick wall. Without him releasing that part of himself, R will never be possible.

Since I made the first post in this thread I've definitely come to a new place in this situation. I'm just going to deal with me. I can't keep trying to convince him of anything. If he wants to R, he will have to take down that wall and reveal himself, not only to a therapist and me, but to himself. I imagine that will be devastatingly painful for him and I'd be more than willing to help him in that process but he will need to ask me for the help if he wants it and I can't force this anymore.

Ball is in his court for R. I can't do it alone nor keep trying to convince him of what needs to be done.


heavy sigh

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Asia
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do get that, which is why I shared it here. It was quote a revelation for me. I think it was a changing point in myself as it revealed that he doesn't see IC as something that will help him.

Interesting. I read it to mean he didn't want to change therapists. You mentioned him getting a male therapist. Do you not see the female therapist as helpful?

Also, in your first post, you call him a narcissist. Is he diagnosed? That's a strong label to put on someone. Not saying he's not, but that's pretty strong.

I agree with you completely - he needs to want this. If he doesn't, and you're dragging him to R kicking and screaming, there's no point. You'll end up resenting him for not being remorseful for the pain he's caused, and he'll end up resentful for all of the actions he felt 'pushed' into doing.

Is he wrong? Of course! He should want to help you heal. Instead he is begrudgingly (it seems from your comments) giving in. That's not the recipe for successful R.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
mystified1970
♀ Member
Member # 36291
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

painfulpast, you're right, narcissist is a strong label and no he hasn't been diagnosed as such. He has very strong narcissistic traits.

I want him to go to a different therapist because the one he's been seeing hasn't made any progress with him at all. In addition, I prefer he not be alone with women, period.

You're also correct that doing anything begrudgingly isn't going to help with R at ALL! He has to want it and see the value in it.

Doing anything just because I want him to is kind of insulting actually.


heavy sigh

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Asia
Topic Posts: 14

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