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Fuck! 13 has been complaining more and more about his mom. She doesn't want to spend any time with the kids. Whenever they are all home together, she will keep moving to rooms they're not in, and texts non-stop with Rig Pig. When she has to talk to the boys, she is just fucking miserable. The only time she isn't in a bad mood, is when Rig Pig is in town. Then she is Mother of the Year, and they all do "family" stuff together.

10 hasn't really complained, but he never has much to say about anything except for whatever his biggest interest is at the time. He has, however, said that when he's 14, he wants to move into the city with me. I think that may be his way of voicing similar complaints.

I have let 13 sound off about his mom to me, because I am his understanding parent. He needs one. I mostly just sympathize with him, but sometimes speak very frankly about her attitudes and moods.

I woke up this morning to the following text from 13:

FUCK IT! Can I move in with you?

I decided to send him an email that explained the situation to the best of my ability. Here is what I sent:

Hey 13,

I'm not sure if your text about living with me was a serious request, or an expression of anger, so I'm going to respond as though it's a request.

First of all, I would LOVE that, but it really isn't practical. When your mom and I decided that I should be the one to move, we knew that we couldn't afford two big places. We decided that she would keep the big place in the country - near her work and family - where you guys could keep all your stuff, and go to the same schools. This was before I realized that you would start to bear the load of her moods it never even occurred to me that THAT would happen, because I thought she hated me (and that her hate for me was the cause of her moods), but know that she loves you.

In order to change all that now, I would have to have both of you come live with me, and find at least a three-bedroom place, and your mom would have to sell her house and move someplace cheap, to help me with child support payments. Then she would have to move into an apartment, and you would live with her on weekends.

I'm not sure if you would have as much freedom to hang with your band on weekends with her, and she would be a VERY bitter woman at having lost her big house and her single-woman weekends - and can you imagine her moods if SHE had to start living among "poor people"?

If we were to totally flip the lives around like that, I would need to give her a really good reason. That would mean telling her the truth (that her kids hate living with her), or making up a really good lie (can't imagine what that would have to be!). It might even have to involve a child custody battle in court - which would make both of us poor, and honestly, I would run out of money for lawyers first. Also, she would have the ammunition of my mental health issues and suicide attempt to use against me.

Unfortunately, I think the only option at this point is for you guys to stick it out with her for a few more years. That's four more years for you (seven for poor 10!), but then you'll be mostly free of her, and won't have to spend such long periods of time together. I know four years seems like forever, but it's probably the only option at this point.

I think you know this, but I really want to stress that when I moved out, I was only leaving your mom. It fucking killed me to be moving someplace where you guys wouldn't be spending seven days per week. It was NEVER about leaving you guys.

I'm sorry. I really would love to have you guys live here, but I just can't see how we can make it happen. If you want to phone and bitch about it this afternoon, please do.

I love you!

The Dad.

His response:

Hey Dad!

Those are all valid points. It would make my life a WHOLE lot easier living with you.

4 years? Fuuuuuuck!

I can't even imagine what that lie would be :p

I love you too

The Son

He's just such a good kid (except for the foul language. I don't know where he gets that!). I hate to see him going through this shit. I mean, what'n fuck is wrong with her that she treats her kids like this. I remember when they were babies, she would regularly turn to me and say, "I love them so much. I would step in front of a bus for them!" I keep waiting for that bus.

Apparently being nice and hanging out with them is too much effort though!

I'm sure that I said all kinds of inadvisable stuff in my email to 13 (and in many of my other communications with him over the last year), but he is just carrying so much of the load of The Princess' moods that I wanted to let him know that none of this is his fault, and that I am not rejecting him.

I just don't know what to do with this shit. I know that I can't make her be a nice parent. I'm not even looking for advice, because I know there's really nothing I can do - just looking to commiserate. Thanks.

I am all about telling kids the truth, but I think your email had a bit much details for a 13 year old. And can you imagine if your XWW got her hands on this email? Or worse yet, her lawyer? Yikes!

I could see telling him that it's not so easy, that you would have to get a bigger apartment and custody and changing CS would take a while with court dates, etc. but to talk about her moods, being bitter, her giving up her single woman weekends, and to put it in writing is way too risky in my opinion.

Get 10 & 13 into counseling. Right now. Best thing I ever did for DD & DS (11 & 9) was find someone who had no ax to grind for them to talk to. Pay a counselor instead of lawyers.

Pass, Buddy, that letter was all kinds of wrong.

You're lucky you're not my ex pass. I monitored all of DS10's texts with STBX, and I had his ass when we went to court for disparaging me. I'm surprised Princess hasn't seen any texts or emails yet, but you better watch out if she does.

But I think you know, I know, your kids know she isn't a great majority-custody parent. Can't 13 choose where he wants to live soon? If I were you, I'd start busting my ass being ready in case you can get custody. I hate for him to be thinking that neither parent wants him full-time. Maybe you should at least show him you are trying to make it happen.. Yes, maybe you will have some roadblocks, but you gotta keep knocking them over.

Pass,

I'm with the previous posters. This letter to a 13yr old was completely inappropriate.

Honestly, reading that I have flashbacks to the letters my XWH wrote to my 14yr old daughter. It is loaded with digs at your STBXWW and she could easily make a case for parental alienation, no matter what "justifications" you might use.

Support your son, yes, but you openly smacked your STBWW around (and not for the first time, IIRC). No judge is going to pat you on the back for that brand of "honesty".

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 11:39 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)]

I could see telling him that it's not so easy, that you would have to get a bigger apartment and custody and changing CS would take a while with court dates, etc. but to talk about her moods, being bitter, her giving up her single woman weekends, and to put it in writing is way too risky in my opinion.

My first draft of the email just spoke to the whole "it's not so easy" of it. I hated that though. It made it sound like he's not worth the effort. The truth is that I would never win. I attempted suicide, spent a week in the psych ward, and have trouble working and paying my rent due to depression and ADHD. She would probably even use the fact that I broke into her email on DDay against me - she likes to tell me how illegal that was.

Am I the better parent? Absolutely. But on paper, I suck. The woman who makes $90K per year, has summers off, and is maintaining a big house in the country near her parents would bury me.

I know this sounds like I'm taking shots at his mom, but most of what I say in that email is just acknowledging a small part of what he says about her. The only thing I'm sure of? The Princess doesn't do any kind of electronic monitoring. She is a technological buffoon, and swears she doesn't have time to watch her children online.

I am trying to find a way to get them in counselling. I have no money. It's all I can do to pay for my rent and bus pass every month.

Knowing all this, I feel that the best thing I can do for 13 is to acknowledge that he should NOT feel that he deserves to be ignored and bitched at.

[This message edited by pass at 11:55 AM, February 25th, 2014 (Tuesday)]

Hey pass,

I'd say at the very least keep the commentary limited to personal conversation, not written. The main message is really what you say near the end, that you wish you could have them full time and you love them. The rest is unnecessary, and does put some pressure on them to continue hating to live with her, with their parents as adversaries. That's a lot for a kid to have to negotiate.

The school must have a guidance counselor for the short term, maybe start there?

The school must have a guidance counselor for the short term, maybe start there?

Thanks, Nora. Unfortunately, The Princess performs the Guidance Counsellor duties at 13's school.

WOW.

Totally stunned by your email to your son.

And not in a good way.

It doesn't just sound like you were taking shots at his mother - you were.

AJ's MOM

The only thing I'm sure of? The Princess doesn't do any kind of electronic monitoring. She is a technological buffoon, and swears she doesn't have time to watch her children online.

I wouldn't rest too securely in that knowledge.

You never know what kind of new tricks the WS picks up from an AP or learns while keeping the BS in the dark.

My XWH was more tech savvy than I was, so I'm sure he never dreamed that I was monitoring my kids' emails. I saw a LOT of things that were completely inappropriate, let alone from a parent to a MINOR child.

You need to remember that you're the adult, not his peer.

You need to remember that you're the adult, not his peer.

I really am painfully aware of that. His mom is out acting like a teenage girl, being sulky and belligerent with the boys when they want anything from her (even just to hang out), and not worrying about introducing new men into their lives.

I have a very good rapport with both of my boys, and I feel as though I have to. The day that I tried to kill myself, they had to become privy to adult issues - and I feel terrible about that. However, they are very smart kids, and want the truth.

In past threads on here, I've been encouraged to give them an age-appropriate version of the truth, that their mom cheated on me. I'm not comfortable doing that, and really the cheating was just what made me finally notice that she really is a foul person. That was the biggest thing that made me consider separation.

The cheating has nothing to do with their lives, but her bad moods and general bitterness affect them on a daily basis. I don't bring it up, and don't encourage them to complain about her, but when they bring it up, I feel the need to acknowledge that they are justified in feeling angry about her treating them like shit.

This is not me trying to be one of those "friend-dads". This is me acknowledging some hard truths with them.

Pass, with all respect....You need to find a place to take Co-Parenting classes ASAP. I dont care if Princess doesn't go....this email was way over the line.

I feel So bad for 13 and 10 for what they have to go through. They are confused and children, they have no concept of the adult issues going on here. And there is a reason for that - they are the children - you are the adults.

Don't mistake the fact that they've been through hell as them being able to maturely handle very adult things. "Acknowledging hard truths" is about the last thing they should have to do right now at their ages.

Your posts about your XW - who is and always will be their mother - are always drenched with your palpable hatred for her and this email is just an extension of that. It's messed up pass, and your responses back to us have been filled with blameshifting. You really need to stop projecting your feelings onto your kids.

Own this and figure out a way to co-parent without forcing your kids in the middle.

I have to confess that I just don't get it.

FACTS

1. My kid has been complaining about his mother continuing behaviour that I know to be a problem, and treating him poorly. I never encourage him to do so, or bring up new complaints.

2. He said he wants to come live with me. He even told my mom on the weekend that he hates going back to his mom's place (the house he has lived in since he was six) because "I feel like I have nothing there."

3. Living with me during the week isn't an option because of real life issues in how we're settling things, and I have no recourse - mostly because of my mental health issues, and his mom's vindictiveness.

OPTIONS

1. Tell him that I will try to get custody, and really try to do it, when I know I would fail. That would beggar everybody in lawyer fees.

2. Tell him that I will try to get custody, and don't really try to do it. That is a lie, and will make him feel unwanted if he ever learns the truth.

3. Tell him that we have to keep the current living situation, but don't tell him why. That is the truth, but will make him draw his own conclusion that neither parent wants him, since his mom is treating him so poorly and I give no reason for "not wanting him".

4. Tell him that we have to keep the current living situation, but tell him why. This is what I did, and in all honesty, still feels like the right thing to do. He knows that I would love to have him more, but can't make that happen.

I honestly feel like I did the right thing here.

Your posts about your XW - who is and always will be their mother - are always drenched with your palpable hatred for her and this email is just an extension of that. It's messed up pass, and your responses back to us have been filled with blameshifting. You really need to stop projecting your feelings onto your kids.

I'm not going to deny that I hate the woman who mistreated me for over 17 years. But I'm really not projecting my feelings onto my kids. Well, okay, maybe a little with 10, since he hasn't said much.

But when I first moved out, we agreed to tell the boys that we just weren't getting along, but would always remain friends and co-parents. I stuck to that line, but 13 was coming to me with complaints about his mom. I started by saying to him that she was under pressure having to take care of a big house on her own, and parenting all by herself five days per week. I don't remember who, but a bunch of SIers told me that I shouldn't make excuses for her.

And I agreed, so I stopped making excuses. I listen to what 13 has to say, and I don't add to it or put words in his mouth. I used to shield the kids from her moods, and now she is taking them out on him instead of me. I'm not projecting. I'm listening.

And I'm certainly not letting him hear how much I hate her. What he hears from me is WAY watered down from what y'all hear.

What you wrote:

Hey 13,

I'm not sure if your text about living with me was a serious request, or an expression of anger, so I'm going to respond as though it's a request.

First of all, I would LOVE that, but it really isn't practical. When your mom and I decided that I should be the one to move, we knew that we couldn't afford two big places. We decided that she would keep the big place in the country - near her work and family - where you guys could keep all your stuff, and go to the same schools. This was before I realized that you would start to bear the load of her moods it never even occurred to me that THAT would happen, because I thought she hated me (and that her hate for me was the cause of her moods), but know that she loves you.

In order to change all that now, I would have to have both of you come live with me, and find at least a three-bedroom place, and your mom would have to sell her house and move someplace cheap, to help me with child support payments. Then she would have to move into an apartment, and you would live with her on weekends.

I'm not sure if you would have as much freedom to hang with your band on weekends with her, and she would be a VERY bitter woman at having lost her big house and her single-woman weekends - and can you imagine her moods if SHE had to start living among "poor people"?

If we were to totally flip the lives around like that, I would need to give her a really good reason. That would mean telling her the truth (that her kids hate living with her), or making up a really good lie (can't imagine what that would have to be!). It might even have to involve a child custody battle in court - which would make both of us poor, and honestly, I would run out of money for lawyers first. Also, she would have the ammunition of my mental health issues and suicide attempt to use against me.

Unfortunately, I think the only option at this point is for you guys to stick it out with her for a few more years. That's four more years for you (seven for poor 10!), but then you'll be mostly free of her, and won't have to spend such long periods of time together. I know four years seems like forever, but it's probably the only option at this point.

I think you know this, but I really want to stress that when I moved out, I was only leaving your mom. It fucking killed me to be moving someplace where you guys wouldn't be spending seven days per week. It was NEVER about leaving you guys.

I'm sorry. I really would love to have you guys live here, but I just can't see how we can make it happen. If you want to phone and bitch about it this afternoon, please do.

I love you!

The Dad.

What you COULD have written:

Hey 13,

I'm not sure if your text about living with me was a serious request, or an expression of anger, so I'm going to respond as though it's a request.

First of all, I would LOVE that, but it really isn't practical. When your mom and I decided that I should be the one to move, we made a lot of decisions wiht the best interests of <kids> and us in mind. Please know that we both love you.

In order to change all that now, it might even have to involve a child custody battle in court - which would be difficult on all of us.

I think the best option at this point is for you guys to stick it out with her for a few more years.

I think you know this, but I really want to stress that when I moved out, it killed me to be moving someplace where you guys wouldn't be spending seven days per week. It was NEVER about leaving you guys.

I'm sorry. I really would love to have you guys live here, but your mom and I already made the best decision we could at the time. If you want to phone and talk about it this afternoon, please do.

I love you!

The Dad.

Not once in my version of your reply did I advocate telling STBXW a lie, call her bitchy, moody, etc. Not once did I say a disparaging word to you SON about his mother.

Frankly, you're encouraging your son's disrespectful talk about his mother in your own words and tone and its not acceptable.

THAT is what you're doing wrong.

FACTS

1. My kid has been complaining about his mother continuing behaviour that I know to be a problem, and treating him poorly. I never encourage him to do so, or bring up new complaints.

There is nothing that you can do about her behavoir unless you could suggest family counseling and co-parenting classes. I know that men are 'fixers' and you want to 'fix' this for your son. But you can not at this time. The best thing that you can do right now is be there when he needs to be. Listen to him, let him vent, and then remind him that he is loved. That the situation right now is very complicated.

2. He said he wants to come live with me. He even told my mom on the weekend that he hates going back to his mom's place (the house he has lived in since he was six) because "I feel like I have nothing there."

Of course he wants to come live with you. You are a support and love. You are also currently NOT the dicipline in the house. You are not the chore enforcer, you are not the homework enforcer. You are not the daily 'bad guy' THAT makes a huge difference to a child.

3. Living with me during the week isn't an option because of real life issues in how we're settling things, and I have no recourse - mostly because of my mental health issues, and his mom's vindictiveness.

If living with you is not a choice, then stop making it a hope.

4. Tell him that we have to keep the current living situation, but tell him why. This is what I did, and in all honesty, still feels like the right thing to do. He knows that I would love to have him more, but can't make that happen.

I honestly feel like I did the right thing here.

No, what you succeeded at is further making his mother the 'bad guy' and thusly further fracturing their relationship.

He looks up to you, so what you say is gold and truth. Stop it.

Every single one of your 'opinions' are ADULT issues and suggestions. He has no need to know about custody battles and court and the only truth he needs right now is that all the choices are in his best interest right now.

I have to admit it, Gaby. That is WAY better. And I do wish I had written that. It does a great job talking about the custody issue.

However, when he is directly complaining about how his mom treats him and 10, what do I do. As I said before, I want to make sure he doesn't think he deserves to be mistreated. I spent the entire marriage thinking I deserved it, and it really fucked me up.

Admittedly, all I really know right now is anger. That seems to be my first response to everything related to her. I want to acknowledge that she should not be treating him this way, and that he is a good person.

He knows that I would love to have him more, but can't make that happen.

I think this was all you needed to tell him.

Kids feel more than we think they do. Please don't feed the anger DS has over the situation. XH and NW did that regularly, with my kids. It taught my kids to play mom against dad really well! So well my kids have become accomplished liars.

I agree counseling is needed. Divorce care has kid classes that sometimes meet on weekends. Is parents without partners still around? Getting together with other kids of divorce helped my kids. It gave them someone to talk to who'd BTDT.

He needs an outlet that's safe and unbiased. Unfortunately it isn't you. I don't know anyone who can be unbiased of their own situation. It's just too hard.

Hugs,

K

Edited to add: SI peeps are very helpful in wording responses... Why not use the collective wisdom here to help edit any future responses?

[This message edited by Kajem at 1:29 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)]