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User Topic: Proof of affair? You decide...
instantkarma
♂ New Member
Member # 42564
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There's a couple of twists and turns to this question, hence the need to get a bit long-winded, but please bear with me. My ex-wife and I started dating about 3 years ago after being divorced for 7 years. We live in separate homes, get along well, and have a really awesome intimate life-I wish we could have had this before the divorce. (Her sex drive actually increased after menopause, like tenfold or so.) BTW, she's hot; we're both in our late 50's but don't look it; everything works, we keep fit, lucky genes I guess.

She works the front desk at a hotel, where a co-worker of mine LIVES (rents by the month). This co-worker is a male slut, has track record of that. So, I warned my ex about that, to be careful. However, for about a year now, my ex and 2-3 co-workers of hers have been getting together on a monthly basis (more or less), going to clubs, dinner, or the movies. During this time, she only told me of ONE outing. And, she left out the part about Mr. Male Slut going along. But let me go to May 2013...

I had no reason to distrust her, until May, when she called me upset about her suspicions that Male Slut was sleeping with one of her co-worker friends. She sounded near tears when she called me (she admits that), saying she was not being jealous, but hurt, because she felt she was betrayed by the friend / co-worker, in not confiding in her about the "affair". The affair had actually never happened, she was just overly suspicious. But, for several months after, I noticed she spoke of Male Slut in ways that seem to be a bit too "friendly", to the point that it almost sounds like she's talking about a high school crush (that's my take anyhow, hopefully not biased by my suspicions).

Fast forward to last December. She tells me she has been emotional lately, cries for no apparent reason. Hormones are not an issue, as she is past menopause, like I mentioned. In addition, the "crush-like" tone suddenly seems to change to a tight-lipped response when Male Slut's name is mentioned.

She had told me about going out with her friends one time last year, one time only. After a few beers at home one night, I asked her about this, making the assumptions that they had gone out more than once, and that Male Slut was there. She fell for it, and she said they had gone out twice, and that yes, he was there. (Several weeks later, little by little, it came out they had gone out several times, with Mr. Male Slut coming along.)

I became more suspicious, she noticed it, and offered to let me look through her cell phone's call log, to confirm they don't talk on the phone other than when the group is going out (the log by then only showed a few weeks worth of calls around Dec 2012). I asked : who asked whom for a phone number first, and she said no one, that they got each other's numbers almost "accidentally" on the first night the group went out. She got very fidgety and had a nervous laughter-blush when I asked this. After downloading her cell phone card onto my computer (she didn't see me do this, but hey, she offered so I took her up on it), I see the group went out around 10 times last year, and she eventually confessed (not because she volunteered, but because she got caught) that Male Slut went along on six or more of those times.

She says that she and Mr. MS have never gone out alone, always at least one of her friends comes along. She also says he has never hit on her, because she's not his type, and that she has zero interest in him. This part, she answers in a manner that does look truthful, I can kind of tell since we've known each other almost 40 years. Then again, she may just be a very good liar.

To summarize, I will give you a couple of scenarios, the first being where an affair is very probable, either emotional of physical, and the second, where hopefully nothing happened - this is where I don’t know what the hell to think, the “evidence” is conflicting:

I. Affair
-our relationship after the divorce was purely sexual, no emotional needs met, she may have needed the emotional attention from me, which I admit was not there
-she lied about his company, for about a year
-lied about how often she went out
-she felt jealous thinking MS was having an affair w/ co-worker
-caught her leaving work 45 min late twice. 1st time by accident
-no explanation for 1st time being late: “I don’t remember, etc”
-2nd time she said she stayed to eat her lunch
-says she hates her job, but stays after quit time for 45 min (“visiting” in his room?)
-I’ve seen them walking together after she got off work
-she called him up two different times, at her quit time(to tell him she's on her way to his room?)
-one night, she calls him at quit time, then 6 more times that evening, as if getting ready to get picked up to go out. No calls from co-workers, so it wasn’t a “girls’ night out” - she “cant remember” that day
-cell phone calls don't show long conversations, however they can talk in person, she's at work while he's there 3 days (24 hrs) a week

II. No Affair
-she promised, on our own daughters and grandchild, that she has never had sex with Mr. MS
-says she lied about him because she knew I would be upset
-all calls are 2 min or less
-FWIW, we continued being intimate throughout all this time
-she agreed to not go out w co-workers, esp him, ever again
-we seem to be developing more feelings towards each other since this blew up about 6 weeks ago

I have no real hard proof, just a lot of circumstantial evidence, so this is why I need input from you out there, hopefully you have viewpoints I have not been able to see-my emotional state doesn't help clarify the situation. My thoughts are that she had at least an emotional affair with Mr. Male Slut, with possibly some intimacy. However, I also think it's possible this was a full-blown affair, and she is just going all out to deny it, saying whatever she has to say to convince me. I have had a hard time getting her to admit to much, just bits and pieces here and there. She has apologized, but still denies any feelings whatsoever toward him, much less any sexual relationship. She says they never danced together, held hands, nor kissed. She says she loves me. I know it's to her advantage to say all this, because we have life-long ties (2 daughters and a grandchild), so this is to be expected. Lastly, I have to be honest: I had not planned to ever re-marry this woman, but since finding out all this stuff, the thought of losing her like this has made me stop to reconsider our relationship. I guess the fact that someone else could take her from me, makes me want to hold on to her even more. Oddly enough, sex has been even hotter now. The pictures in my mind of her with someone else fuels things up...kinda weird, no? Thanks for all your input.


Posts: 23 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
sparkysable
♀ Member
Member # 3703
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Where there is smoke, there is fire. And I'm seeing lots of smoke here.


D-day OW#1 2/2004; R for 6 years; D-day OW#2 5/2010

Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last.


Posts: 3303 | Registered: Mar 2004 | From: NY
annb
♀ Member
Member # 22386
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi, instantkarma, welcome to SI.

Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

I see too many red flags here.

BTW, my husband also swore up and down on the planet, the universe, the kids, blah, blah, blah that nothing happened. Cheaters lie, even when confronted with solid proof.

The intimacy you are experiencing with your wife is called HB (hysterical bonding). You can read about it in the Healing Library, it is not uncommon.

I hope you find the answers you need. Check out the Healing Library in the upper left-hand corner, chock full of information, and knowledge is power.

You can also scroll down a page or two in this forum and read the threads with a target icon on the left-hand side. Great resources for newbies.

[This message edited by annb at 11:56 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]


Posts: 7466 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Northeast
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A couple of things tells me yes, she has been with him...alone.

The one that hit me was how you described her talking about him like a high school crush. I went through that and it hit my gut feelings like a baseball bat.

The no answers for being late. The calls to his room. Too many phone calls and too many times being late. What are her reasons for all of these calls after work. I can see it as a manager on the clock but not after work.

If she continually answers with I dont know and I dont remember, she is lying.

IMO I just never could believe so many I dont know and I dont remember answers from my WW.


Posts: 3778 | Registered: Jun 2002
k9lover1
♀ Member
Member # 8531
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When you and your X started dating, was it agreed that you both would be monogamus - have you been - or was it just friends with benefits?

Proof - I don't think so. Suspicious - highly.
But, unless you both agreed that you would not date anyone else, she is free to do whatever she wants.

However, she is not free to lie to you. If she is seeing him, or has a crush on him she should be honest with you, even if you are only friends with benefits. Is this type of dishonesty a deal breaker with regard to any future relationship?

If you want a commitment, tell her.


D-Day was 10/9/05
He promised NC. He lied. After 4 chances, I kicked him out 1/05/06.
Since then I have survived cancer surgery and a heart attack.
Now he's sorry, but it's too late.

Posts: 8094 | Registered: Oct 2005 | From: Wisconsin
womaninflux
♀ Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm so confused!

If you are not married or together as a couple why is this wrong (other than the fact that she obviously is not telling the truth about the nature of her friendship with MS).


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 864 | Registered: Jun 2013
instantkarma
♂ New Member
Member # 42564
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To answer some of the questions...first, this relationship did begin as a friends with benefits type of arrangement, but feelings, the love I feel now, eventually started to return.

We do consider ourselves a couple, and monogamy has always been a principle we shared. We never actually sat down and clarified that, we just know that anything short of complete monogamy is not acceptable, it's a topic we have discussed in the past.

Although we are both currently single, neither of us even hinted at being free to go out with anyone else. I don't want that, and was sure she didn't either. The fact she was hiding all of this does point to that, she was "violating" our unspoken agreement and was trying to cover it. In retrospect, clarifying this would have been prudent when we started to see each other again.

I appreciate your input, questions, and the Healing Library suggestion as well. This is all starting to help and clarify so much, please accept my thanks.


Posts: 23 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
kalimata
♂ Member
Member # 42104
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Instantkarma:

The moment you divorced your ex-W she became single, no? Then why do you consider this to be an affair? She owes you nothing.

You come and go as you please with her, have sex whenever you want. And you want her to commit to monogamy with you without being married?

Please explain how someone who is UNMARRIED can be having an affair?????

.................Kali


Posts: 191 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
k9lover1
♀ Member
Member # 8531
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How long were you married? Why did you divorce?


D-Day was 10/9/05
He promised NC. He lied. After 4 chances, I kicked him out 1/05/06.
Since then I have survived cancer surgery and a heart attack.
Now he's sorry, but it's too late.

Posts: 8094 | Registered: Oct 2005 | From: Wisconsin
Dark Inertia
Member
Member # 30727
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This does not sound like it was an affair. It sounds like it was a FWB relationship, she was getting her emotional needs elsewhere and when you found out you re evaluated the relationship and decided it was more.

[This message edited by Dark Inertia at 12:55 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]


"If I listened earlier, I wouldn't be here. But that's just the trouble with me. I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."

Posts: 1218 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: The Ohio
instantkarma
♂ New Member
Member # 42564
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kali, I see the logic of your question. I consider us a couple, even though we indeed are unmarried and living separately at the moment. You can compare this to a girlfriend / boyfriend situation. Sure, both are single, but the relationship is ongoing and monogamy is expected. I certainly don't come and go, I have not been with anyone else since our relationship was rekindled about three yrs ago. And I agree, she literally doesn't owe me anything, but on the other hand, would you be agreeable to have a girlfriend that sleeps around? I think exclusivity is something we owe our partner, unless we specifically request to be in an open relationship, where each party can go out or sleep with whomever. Hence, the affair definition is not exclusive to a marriage in my opinion, hopefully semantics will not be a problem with the discussion. Thanks for the question.

Posts: 23 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
instantkarma
♂ New Member
Member # 42564
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

k9, we were married 20 yrs, divorced because of deterioration of the relationship, both of us at fault in my opinion: I was not a very loving man, preoccupied with day to day, etc....she was affected by the beginning of menopause, no sex for months, moody...

Dark Inertia, you are right.

Thanks for both your comments.


Posts: 23 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
annb
♀ Member
Member # 22386
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Please explain how someone who is UNMARRIED can be having an affair?????

Kalimata, infidelity can strike anyone who is in a committed relationship..bf/gf...engaged...significant others.

Not sure if instantkarma's x-wife understood the new relationship commitment, but she is definitely hiding something.

[This message edited by annb at 1:02 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]


Posts: 7466 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Northeast
LifeIsTooWeird
♀ Member
Member # 42093
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would second the opinion that she may not be clear on the conditions of the new relationship. We were engaged, but obviously not anymore. When I talk about him now I often have to force myself to say "my BF" instead of "my fiancé". It's a weird situation to be in after being engaged for so long. I've asked him how he refers to me to other people and he says he uses my name. I've stated several times that I'd like definition of what he sees our relationship as, I don't even think he's at the BF/GF stage yet. Titles are very important to me right now though.


Me - GF (38)
Him - BF (33)
DDay - 08/13
Together 8 Years
In R

Posts: 133 | Registered: Jan 2014
Jduff
♂ Member
Member # 41988
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm thinking if she is willing to hide something, there is her implied understanding of "exclusivity". Otherwise, she would have just said "Oh yeah, me and MS went for a few rolls in the hay. What's the problem?"


Divorced - 5/23/14
Already in my New Beginning - :)

Posts: 442 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: texas
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, February 27th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

-she promised, on our own daughters and grandchild, that she has never had sex with Mr. MS

Without reading anyone else's response this is a huge red flag. It means nothing except it makes me suspicious. My husband swore on the lives of our 2 elementary school aged boys and of course, it was a lie. It's a common tactic to shut you up. Many betrayed have heard it. It immediately makes me think she's lying.

That along with this-

-says she lied about him because she knew I would be upset

plus the bullshit about crying because a friend was screwing him and she was just upset her friend didn't tell her. Grown women don't cry because a friend didn't tell her everything. She was upset her bed buddy was also screwing her friend and had to twist it because you'd hear/see her crying.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 3:43 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1466 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
Sadmumma
♀ Member
Member # 42192
Default  Posted: 3:29 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Firstly, welcome to SI... The club nobody wants to join.

Secondly, I'm going to pay devils advocate here. BUT is it at all possible that (in her eyes at least) your relationship,s over, yet neither of you can let go of the other?

You are divorced. THere is no commitment, yes, she probably has a crush and could have been intimate with this man, however THERE IS NO COMMITMENT.

Change that, if you have a problem with dating other men


On any given day you have the power to say "my story is not going to end like this"
Me 41 BS
Him 41 WH
6 kids...7 weeks, 5,7,9,11&13
D day jan 29th 2014

Posts: 535 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Land down under
jb3199
♂ Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 5:29 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't understand the comments here about being divorced and single. It clearly sounds like the two of them were in an exclusive dating relationship...although instantkarma looks back in retrospect...and maybe wished that this was expressed verbally. But three years dating is three years dating.

To me, at least, it does sound like she has some sort of fascination with Mr. MS.

Maybe a conversation with your ex that removes any possible ambiguity? State your feelings for her, and let her know that you are NOT comfortable with her around this type of environment?

At least that would clear the air.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2036 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 6:53 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with dropping the question of if she was able to cheat because of the status of their relationship. It's infuriating to read.

Dating for 3 years if completely different than meeting up for sex on occasion.

If we went by the WS's view of the relationship then most of them wouldn't have cheated because they viewed their marriage as dead or take yesterday's doozy- that they were separated but it was news to the BH.

Additionally, if she didn't feel they were exclusive she wouldn't have been lying about anything.

It's very disturbing to see people asking how this could be cheating or suggesting she was right to hide things from him and lie to him. I bet if someone said the same thing regarding their WSs they would flip their lids, and rightfully so.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1466 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
instantkarma
♂ New Member
Member # 42564
Default  Posted: 8:59 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks to all for the comments, again. Some of you are clarifying the situation, keeping me from deceiving myself in trying to be blindly optimistic. Others are offering viewpoints from the opposing side, where I may have dropped the ball and am facing what I deserved. Both are equally valid and eye-opening, please keep comments coming.
The help is tremendous, I wasn't expecting much, but I can see some beneficial change taking place. For the last 6 weeks or so, keeping all this in because of shame or embarrassment, was literally flattening me out emotionally. The heavy shoulder feeling, the sensation in the pit of my stomach. The insomnia was starting to affect my job, and alcohol was starting to look like a good temporary treatment, even though I know better. I had not been drinking so much in a daily basis until this all started, just to feel better for a couple of hours and be able to go to "sleep". BUT, just being able to post this, to let it out of my system by typing it out on this keyboard, in itself has been very therapeutic for me. Thanks for allowing this. My drinking is not looking like an issue any longer, and I have curtailed that steadily by around 90% in just this last few days, thanks in great part to you all.

Sadmumma's comment:
"Secondly, I'm going to pay devils advocate here. BUT is it at all possible that (in her eyes at least) your relationship,s over, yet neither of you can let go of the other?

You are divorced. THere is no commitment, yes, she probably has a crush and could have been intimate with this man, however THERE IS NO COMMITMENT.

Change that, if you have a problem with dating other men"

Yes, this is very possible and I had looked at this being the case, however...

BtraydWife says:

"Dating for 3 years if completely different than meeting up for sex on occasion.

If we went by the WS's view of the relationship then most of them wouldn't have cheated because they viewed their marriage as dead or take yesterday's doozy- that they were separated but it was news to the BH.

Additionally, if she didn't feel they were exclusive she wouldn't have been lying about anything. It's very disturbing to see people asking how this could be cheating or suggesting she was right to hide things from him and lie to him. I bet if someone said the same thing regarding their WSs they would flip their lids, and rightfully so."

This also makes sense, and I am trying to sort all of this out. It would sure help if she could ADMIT to the affair, which I now am sure took place, but that has yet to happen. We have told each other we love each other, and she seems to be trying to help out, asking me what she can do, after saying she regrets the lies, but still is adamant that nothing "intimate" ever happened. She is standing by her story about nothing more than friendship being the case. Your thoughts on this?

So still, I am hopefully starting to move in a good direction with your help. I considered counseling, but have previously been through that and I am not a big fan of having a person with a diploma playing the be-all know-all source. Comments from you, many of which have gone through this, are just as valuable, if not more.

One detail I really need to add to my story (and did not initially include, for the sake of keeping the 1st post from being monstrously long), is the following:

Mr. MS does NOT know that I am the former spouse of this front-desk lady, my ex. I haven't met her co-workers either. I asked her to keep that as such because if it were common knowledge that she and I were previously married, the gossip would have caught fire very quickly at my work, even if nothing had ever happened (that is just how it is at my place of employment). I don't need THAT type of aggravation. And with the reputation Mr. Male Slut has, rumors would have started waaay long before anything could have happened. My position, and my career, could have potentially been severely affected, hence my decision to keep this "secret".

I know, that was possibly not a good start to all of this. And maybe, nothing would have happened if all were to have been out in the open. But at the time, it seemed like the right thing to do. Thanks again.


Posts: 23 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
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