Details I ask her, about specific dates, calls, etc. still evoke nothing, other than "that's nothing but circumstantial, unfortunate, false evidence, coincidences that paint the wrong picture". She claims to be an innocent suspect that is wrongfully accused of something awful that never took place.
After years of being part of this forum, one becomes accustomed to reading words like these. The best defense is an offense, as they say. Painting herself as the victim makes it difficult for you to continue questioning; it is an effective strategy.
The 180 that BtraydWife mentions can be really helpful for the BS, especially when the WS isn't remorseful. You can read about it in the Healing Library. Taking her on a vacation...well, you can't nice someone into being honest with you.
I am left thinking about a few things after reading your last post:
1. I do wonder what SHE thought your relationship status was at the time this happened. You have said you expected monogomy, but that you never actually discussed it. Perhaps she did not have the same expectation.
2. I think it is important for you to decide what you want from this relationship. If you take this situation out of the equation, what does your future look like with your XW? Do you remain friends with benefits? Do you get remarried? Are these feelings of love you have reactionary? I think you need to decide this for yourself soon, so you know whether it's worth the work its going to take to rebuild trust. If she is really just a friend with benefits, maybe not...you seem to be more invested in her than that at this point; only you can decide if that's a response to the betrayal.
3. If you do want to stick with this through the long term, you will need to put your cards on the table and let her know you can't have a future with someone who lies to you. And then you need to listen to your gut when she speaks. If it tells you she is lying, she most likely is. You have to trust yourself more than her words.
4. You have to decide whether your plans of action will be if you feel she is lying. That part sucks.
5. Have you thought about how you feel about the actual cheating? Do YOU feel it was proof of an affair? You asked us to decide, but it's really only your decision. If the answer is yes, is it a deal breaker? An opportunity to revisit boundaries and the future if your relationship? You have some complications here, based on your history as well as the nature of your renewed relationship.
6. I don't know what you have said to her in your quest for her to be honest. Once you have some of the answers to the above, you could try something like: this has really opened my eyes to how much I love you and made me think of our future. I realize I want our relationship to go (_____). Before we move forward in need to know what happened with the OM. If I can't feel like you have been honest I can't move forward with you. I will be hurt and sad if you were with him, but can make a commitment to work towards helping from that. I cannot, however, deal with dishonesty.
Hopefully her letter provides some insight.
[This message edited by lost_in_toronto at 12:48 PM, March 7th (Friday)]
We continue seeing each other. We also had a long phone call a few days ago where we went over the specific calls and dates I had a real doubt about. She claims to be in the process of clearing all of those details up, trying to remember specifics, looking at her calendar. I wonder is this is just giving her time to make up believable "stories", I just don't know.
The most aggravating part is the solid-as-a-rock denial. It seems like she just made the unwavering decision at the onset, that regardless of what happened or what I found out, she would just deny everything. No wiggle room, no gray areas, just denial.
Which brings me to point out: I have read several posts, and by now I know that denial is ever-present with WS's...especially initially. And I also know that even after admitting to an affair, the extent of it is always minimized at the beginning.
I am curious though, I don't see any posts where a bunch of circumstantial evidence eventually, after much "research" and questioning, turns out to be just that..circumstantial evidence. Where no affair took place, nobody was wronged, no damage done? I know, in my situation, the lying was there, but could it have just been like she said, "trying to avoid hurting" me?
Or am I just caving in?
I still plan on taking that mini-vacation with her, and by then she should have given me her written version of what happened, her soul-searching, ect.
After that, depending on what she tells me in writing, I am torn between beginning to do the 180, in hopes of finally bringing a conclusion to all this (either reconciliation or ending the relationship), OR, keeping her as a f-buddy indefinitely. (Why waste those UNBELIEVABLE nights of incredible sex?)I feel guilty for thinking like this, but even though I feel love for her, I don't want to continue the relationship if nothing is going to be admitted to. I have not felt, in my gut, that she is innocent. I am strongly leaning towards the fact that something did happen and she is just not going to ever confess.
So, if that is the case, I will take whatever is left of a physical relationship, and reluctantly move on when the timing is right. Pretty self-serving on my part, and deceitful also, but so what? I have been deceived, no remorse on her part or willingness to admit to even an iota of possible emotional attraction to this man. She was going to places where she actually saw friends of mine, went up to say hi to them, and introduced them to her friends -including this guy- without considering or caring about the potential consequences once I found out. Not really risking that I would find out from them, but maybe wishing that they WOULD tell me, that she was with a guy out having fun while I was kept in the dark-is this thoughtlessness, or is it outright in-my-face "F.U., old ex"?
These few paragraphs above should tell you what a complete mess all this has made of me. I can't believe I feel like this, but I do. Just an honest rant. Thoughts?
[This message edited by instantkarma at 7:28 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
Believe me, I love sex and missed it with my exWBF. But on the other side of that relationship, honestly, celibacy is sooooo much healthier for me. I do not mourn the physical connection (ok, I kinda do) when I think about the emotional pain I was put through. And my self respect matters more to me than just whether I'm feeling sexually satisfied (and I take care of that on my own thank you very much). Plus, I am sure I will find someone else I click with down the line. Someone who I can have sex with without committing emotional suicide at the same time.
It's not worth it. And it's a lie to think you are just in it for the physical aspect and not for the continued contact. Listen: if she doesn't deserve your love, she doesn't deserve to get the physical benefits of having you around either. It is a package deal at this point. You can't magically separate them and wait on 'timing' to fully cut ties. From those who have BTDT...this is better done sooner rather than later if it needs to be done.
What innocent thing would be worth having your significant other think you were a liar?
Being a liar is better than being what?
Still holding, no changes up to now
She will not stop lying until continuing to lie becomes more costly than telling the truth. You need a hard, abrupt 180.
I understand you plan to take the trip. So go then when you return tell her you are not interested in continuing a relationship with her because she is lying to you. Tell her you want no further contact then follow the 180.
Don't have a long drawn out conversation. It's the lies or you. See ya, bye.
You will not get the truth until you do this. Any contact you start with her will end your chances at getting the truth.
[This message edited by BtraydWife at 9:05 PM, March 9th (Sunday)]
Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson
Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.
All I got was a 7-page handwritten diatribe on how pure-hearted she is, how she is not a hot-to-trot woman looking for male companionship, details of how this group of friends (including the insatiable sex-career'd Male Slut)were being just soooo sociable and looking for nothing but friendly get-togethers.
Then there was the "heart-wrenching" apology, which "truly comes from the heart", where she so regrets hurting my feelings....puke on my head please.
Towards the end, of course, the standard victim reference of how she is so unfairly being accused. However, there is no explanation of any specifics that I asked for. These would be the calls and "outings" that took place only 3-4 months ago, where she and he called each other 8 times one evening in October, ending with a call to a pizza delivery joint at almost 2 in the morning. Nobody but her and him on the call records that night.
She kinda resents my being in this forum, saying whe will go to a counselor (appointment in about 9 days), saying she would rather go see a professional rather than talk to a bunch of laymen/laywomen (all of us on SI) who are obviously prejudicial and have an agenda because they (you fellow posters) were wronged. Imagine that.
Just today, I saw her from about a block away, then later close up, as I was driving home from work. She happens to be here right now, as we are both caring for out granddaughter for a couple of days during her elementary school spring break.
I took a close look at her, and wondered, "what the hell am I doing?". This woman has a hot-ish body for her age, but if you combine all the parts and look at the whole, i.e. body, face, lack of personality, conversational cardboard box, and overall needy emotional "beggar" who just happens to have a talent for allowing a man to screw her to their hearts content, as good and as much as they want, the only conclusion I can come up with is that no, I don't really love her, I just love to screw her brains out. Period.
So now, I need to reset my priorities and realize I will have to drop the selfish reluctance to let go of that piece of ass. Really, it is now looking like love, on my part, was really never a factor. It was more of an emotional version of the Hysterical Bonding syndrome, combined with my lusty nature.
Like I said in a previous post, we have a mini vacation set up for this upcoming weekend, which I unfortunately can't get a refund for. Yeah, I would have to forfeit a small chunk of change if I cancel. So I'm not going to do that (although I did consider going alone...not leaning that way right now).
I plan on taking her as planned, having a "good time" (all the while knowing she is a lying user of people), and then, upon getting back home, springing the old 180: "by the way, I can't see you again because of your reluctance to be 100% honest with me", "you have a few days to reconsider your hypocrisy and come clean", etc. If she does not recant and finally come clean, I think I am now in a good place emotionally and mentally to handle it. If by chance she realizes that this is the last chance and approaches me with a true account of what happened, I will CONSIDER getting back, but no guarantees. If I do, I have to admit, I will do so with myself in mind FIRST, possibly only to give myself time to really think this out and decide if I really want to be with her. Yes, very selfish, but in a vindictively-satisfying kind of way.
Hell, even if she says "thanks, but no thanks", she will have realized that the last few weeks have been nothing but a delay tactic on my part to satisfy myself with every little bit of her body, as much as I can. Not too gentleman-like, but using her as a human condom is a small price to pay for what she did.
I know this is SUPER selfish and unlike the principles I normally keep, but right now I am kinda pissed at what she did, and how she's using the fact that I'm a good-hearted fool that was in the dark, to her advantage, for months on end.
Damn her for getting the worst out of me.
[This message edited by instantkarma at 9:35 AM, March 11th (Tuesday)]
She answered by saying they were just a social group having fun. Okay.
Tell her you are not accusing her of anything, you are just asking her some simple, very simple and in fact legitimate questions that she should be able to answer.
And then just write your questions and see if she answers them.
For example, where was the pizza delivered. Was she with him at 2 am and if so why.
One thing is odd. We would never find a pizza delivery here at 2 am, and I live in a major city of about 3 million people. Your lucky to get one delivered after 11 pm.
I have read many, many posts here throughout this ordeal, and I realize there are so many poor souls with much worse circumstances than mine. People with health issues, with small children, and countless other life struggles-in addition to a WS.
Mine is thankfully not one of the worse situations, it involves a relationship with a wayward ex-spouse (wxs?). At its worse, it will mean an end to a relationship that I expected would end in re-marriage. Not the end of my world by any means, but still a very bitter pill to swallow. The feelings are somewhat similar to a married man's feelings of betrayal, but with much less at stake. No divorce, no custody issues, etc.
I do thank whomever runs this site. The support provided is of utmost value. As I posted before, my betraying ex belittled the fact I was seeking and finding support and relief in an on-line support group of sorts. She would not "stoop to that, will see a real professional". Great example of her IQ.
Thanks again. I will keep looking at your responses, and post as soon as news happens with me and her. Or the lack of.
BTW, to CRAIG2001: the pizza joint was already closed, they shut it down at 1 AM on weekends. No pizza was delivered....
[This message edited by instantkarma at 9:06 PM, March 12th (Wednesday)]