Cheating Hurt by Infidelity
Betrayal Wayward Donations lying
Welcome

Forums

Guidelines

Find a Local Counselor

The Healing Library

Media

Contact Us
lies
cover
In Association with Amazon.com
Support
Infidelity -
-
Find a Local Couselor
like us on facebook
You are not logged in. Login here or register.
[Register]
Newest Member: gonnabounceback (44585)

Divorce/Separation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Validation v. Truth
sunandmoon
♀ Member
Member # 10180
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A few background things-

I am fBS in R with fWS. I was separated from fWS for 10 months but we did not D. I am, however, a child of D.

I have a friend- no really-that is three years post D. UGLY D. Her H was a WS that left and Married OP.

They went back and forth about child custody issues- started at 50/50; then reduced for father's visitation as he did not have the kids per the schedule and finally ended with him losing all decision making (sole physical custody to my friend as well as 100% decision making) with reasonable visitation that was laid out. Shortly after that happened her ex moved to another state. This was this past summer. He has not laid eyes on his children since he moved.

He wants the kids for Spring Break. It is within the bounds of the agreement. BUT he wants my friend to drive half way to where they now live for this to happen- pick up and drop off. The half way point is about 4 hours drive. She is refusing and has said to ExH that he is welcome to have kids but he needs to drive to her to get them and return them or he will not have them at all.

I get it. He was awful during the D. He was abusive. He said awful things about my friend to the kids. They are in IC and doing the best they have done since he moved away since they are not feeling constantly torn between the two people they love (thier parents).

BUT- I do not agree with her. I think she can reasonably drive them to him and I think the kids really really want to see their Dad. And they have built great methods of cutting off any "yucky talk" should the Dad revert to that.

So- long story for my question- do I validate her because I know that is what she wants or do I tell her what I really think?

sunandmoon


Posts: 1634 | Registered: Mar 2006
StillLivin
♀ Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm, honestly, I think she is actually right. If it were an hour drive, something more convenient, then she should probably make the effort, but 4 hours is awfully long. That makes it 8 hours both ways, and then is he expecting her to meet him again to pick them up. That's putting her out quite a bit.
Has she asked for your opinion? If so, then be honest about how you feel. However, if she hasn't asked for your opinion, then it might be prudent to keep it to yourself.
I know my schedule is so busy right now. I do not have time for extra stuff just for ME to do that is fun. And it has been this way for about 3 months. So I wouldn't do anything out of the way for an X that was a jerk.
It's a shame that he had all that time to spend with his kids but he was selfish. He cannot expect anyone to now want to accommodate him. His tough luck. Unfortunately, the kids are in the middle.
I know if it were my kids, I wouldn't be an ass about going and getting them. I'd walk through water. But then again, I would never be in his predicament to begin with.
Ever heard the phrase, no good deed goes unpunished. He will probably still be a jerk to her and act entitled, and for taking 2 whole days out of my life, it just isn't worth it.
JMO though.


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2210 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
sunandmoon
♀ Member
Member # 10180
Default  Posted: 3:59 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Still-

Thank you and I support all of your thought. "

The guy is pure NPD and of course things everyone should accomodate him.

I am thinking of the kids. And what I might do if I were facing that choice. They are fine but they miss him. I think that would be the lens I would use to make my decision.

She has asked my opinion and I know she probably already knows what I think. When this first came up as a posiibilty I offered to do one of the runs with the kids.....I do know 8 hours is a long time. BUT she does this 2x a summer so the kids can see his mom (their grandmother) so its hard to justify that she would do that for the grandmother but not thier father.

sunandmoon


Posts: 1634 | Registered: Mar 2006
Oftencheatedon
♀ Member
Member # 41268
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes children should have a relationship with both parents.

But it is not the mother's responsibility to make this happen if the father chooses to sit on his duff.

The mother should not actively prevent her children from seeing their father. But she is in no way obligated to go out of her way to accommodate his laziness.


Posts: 105 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: AL
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's not hard to justify...why can't HE choose to drive? HE chose to move away. Kudos for her making sure they have a relationship with his parent - he could always choose to see them then.

Look this is a guy whose actions have screamed I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU to his children. Why shouldn't he have to make the effort? She's not actually keeping him from his children, just has the entirely reasonable expectation that he will show by his actions that he really does want to see them.

If an extra 4 hours each way stops him from seeing his children...she is NOT the unreasonable one here.


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - Susp EA 'The Baker'
COW - EA/PA 'Fat Bottomed Girl'
COW - Susp EA 'MiniMe'

Posts: 836 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
sunandmoon
♀ Member
Member # 10180
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great to hear your thoughts and I agree wholeheartedly. HE made his bed. HE can certainly drive to them- even stay here to spend time with them. I just know how this will end (so does she) and I am sad for the kids. They are the ones who are hurt in the end.

sunandmoon


Posts: 1634 | Registered: Mar 2006
Dreamboat
♀ Member
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 4:14 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I were her then I would not do it. It sets a precedence so she will be responsible for 1/2 of all travel expenses going forward. But HE is the one who chose to move 8 hours away so HE should be responsible for all travel for visitation. That is the way courts generally view this. But if she does it this time, then next time he may ask her to pay 1/2 of the plane tickets for them to visit him, or he decides he wants them to visit one weekend a month and she is then expected to drive 16 hours to make that happen. It is about setting a precedence that could turn out to be a disaster in the future.

And here is the thing, there is nothing she can do or say that will make him be a good father. He is a lousy father who will only see the kids when it is convenient for him. He has not bothered to come visit them once since he moved. And NOW he expect people to ask "How High??!!" when he says jump.

Of course the kids love and miss their father. But guess what? They will continue to love and miss their father whether they visit him for a week or not. He still will not be in their lives.

Being an Only Parent is incredibly hard. Asking her to spend 16 hours driving so that he can see his kids is too much to ask. HE needs to make an effort for the kids and if he is not willing to do that then the kids will be just fine without him. I say this from experience.

HTH

eta: damn you autocorrect!!!

[This message edited by Dreamboat at 4:16 PM, March 21st (Friday)]


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17605 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
StillLivin
♀ Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The thing is, she sets a precedence now. If she always accommodates, then it becomes expected. If for some reason down the road she really and truly cannot do the drive, she becomes the bad guy.
He is still trying to control her and she is setting her boundaries.
I know it sucks for the kids, but HE is the reason, not her or her decision not to meet him half way. Kids know when parents aren't doing their best.
If he cannot even make the trip to see his kids, how much effort will he make with them while he has them?
I've seen this play out over and over with different friends and with my own DSSs. Their bio Mama never made an effort for a damn thing. And, when she had them, they ended up being sorry they went and having even worse self esteem because she showed them over and over how little they mattered. As to the friends who didn't accommodate, they taught their children what right looks like and to enforce your boundaries. So I guess that is where my perspective comes from, seeing this scenario played out both ways.
Now the MIL isn't stepping over those boundaries, and she probably legitimately can't make that big of a trip.
Question, why didn't the son go see his kids when they were with his mother?


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2210 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am thinking of the kids

I have had this type of statement thrown at me so many times whenever I am not agreeing to whatever my stbx *wants*, that it has actually become a bit triggery for me -- throws me right into 'defense' mode every.single.time.I.hear/see.it -- so I'm going to keep this short.

He is the parent. It is his responsibility to keep in contact with his kids and arrange to see them. He chose to move himself 8 hours away -- he should have realized what a barrier this would create for him to easily see his children. It is reasonable for him to ask your friend if she's willing to meet him, but it is unreasonable for him to get upset if she says no. He'll just need to suck it up and drive the extra time. Does her placement agreement address this relocation/transportation issue at all?

I'm wondering -- has gma always lived far away or did she relocate herself also? Bringing in the fact that your friend will drive to see the kids to see gma, but not dad.....seems like a bit of *dirty pool* to me. Different relationship, different circumstances. Not an apple-to-apple comparison at all, imo.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7869 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
neverbeokay
Member
Member # 8275
Default  Posted: 6:49 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's not hard to justify...why can't HE choose to drive? HE chose to move away. Kudos for her making sure they have a relationship with his parent - he could always choose to see them then.
Look this is a guy whose actions have screamed I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU to his children. Why shouldn't he have to make the effort? She's not actually keeping him from his children, just has the entirely reasonable expectation that he will show by his actions that he really does want to see them.

If an extra 4 hours each way stops him from seeing his children...she is NOT the unreasonable one here

Exactly. If I hadn't seen my kids in nine months there isn't any distance I wouldn't be willing to travel to spend time with them.

And here is the thing, there is nothing she can do or say that will make him be a good father. He is a lousy father who will only see the kids when it is convenient for him. He has not bothered to come visit them once since he moved. And NOW he expect people to ask "How High??!!" when he says jump.

Of course the kids love and miss their father. But guess what? They will continue to love and miss their father whether they visit him for a week or not. He still will not be in their lives.

Sadly, this is the truth.


Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2005
LoveHerStill
♂ Member
Member # 31504
Default  Posted: 9:42 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to agree wit most of the other members. He chose to move 8 hours away. He didn't have to, he chose to. It is his burden to provide transport to and from the place he chose to move to. He sounds like a real piece of work. It is up to him to maintain the relationship with his kids, which he has done minimally. If this is due to his choice to move so far away then tough shit asswhole, it was his choice. They are divorced and he can no longer expect her to help him out in any way, nor is she obligated to do so in any way. He created this distance problem, he should deal with the inconvenience of it, not her.

Just because it is in the best interest of the kids does not equate to her providing transport due to his choice to move so far away. That is solely his responsibility now. I hope that you can see this line of reasoning.


Me BH-45
Her WW-44
Married-20yrs
Together-26yrs
D-Day 4/11/10
Divorced 9/13/2010
XWW Married OM 5/23/2011

There is hope. Once you truly commit to focusing on yourself and letting go, it comes back, and you will appreciate it like never before.


Posts: 456 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: Seattle, WA
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can see him sending two plane tickets to your friend and expecting her to put her kids on the plane & fly solo. If she doesn't he'll squawk to the judge that she's not facilitating the relationship.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9461 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
SBB
♀ Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 10:01 PM, March 21st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He chose to move 8 hours away from his kids therefore he chose the consequences of that.

No way in hell would I be driving 4 hours there and 4 hours back (twice!) to accommodate him. Those poor kids are doing 16 hours of driving for it. Don't they have flights?

I also do not believe there is any great benefit to kids to seeing a father who only sees them once a year. Does he even talk to them throughout the week? 'For the kids' my arse - she's sending them into a lions den of parental alienation and trash talking their mother and she knows it. I wouldn't be bending over backwards either.

This is him abusing her - forcing her to either travel 4 hours both ways twice OR make her feel responsible for his kids not seeing him if she doesn't agree to it. These abusers get so good at it that lots of folks don't even notice.


Buzz- The word you are searching for is 'Space-Ranger.'
Woody- The word I'm searching for, I can't say, because there are Pre-school toys here.

Posts: 5527 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
sunandmoon
♀ Member
Member # 10180
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, March 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry to have bailed- school event last night.

I see your perspectives and support what you are saying. HE absolutely chose to move. HE absolutely should just pony up and drive here to see his kids. That is what a REAL father would do.

I guess as a child who had D parent truly co-parent me k want that for any child of D. And I recognize in order to do that you have to have both parents willing to make the kids the priority and not themselves.

I just hate to see these kids know they could be seek g their father " if only"

I've decided to stay silent on this as my POV is clouded by my own experience as a child of D.

sunandmoon

ETA- someone asked about the visits to Grandma- she has always lived where she lives, the kids have always been driven back and forth for the summer visit. My friend has kept this up cause it means a lot to the kids and it isn't Grandmas fault her S made the choices he has.


Posts: 1634 | Registered: Mar 2006
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, March 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Doesn't it speak volumes that the ex-daughter in law drives the grandchildren up to see their paternal grandmother...and not him?

Yes, you're clouded by your own experience and wants. And in many ways it's lovely, because you know how you would want to parent if it came to D...but yes, it does take BOTH parents. Trying to 'fix' the situation is actually quite co-dependent. Something to think about, perhaps?

But anyway, your friend is being emotionally healthy. She has clear and healthy boundaries but is quite happy for the children to have a relationship with their father...if he choses to do so. What he's actually doing, is manipulating the situation and it could go one or more of the following ways:

1. He doesn't really want to see the children but wants to be able to blame her. Then he can tell everyone (usually a new woman) he loves his kids but his awful ex won't let him see them . If she says yes, he may find another reason why it won't work. Probably by asking something ELSE unreasonable (his current 'request' is already unreasonable). Or else she'll drive up there to find he doesn't turn up, blaming engine trouble or an emergency or something.

2. His life is going to pot/he's not getting enough validation for his ego, so he wants to provoke her into a reaction AND get ego kibbles from the children. Just her saying no may be enough. Her saying no, may create enough drama around that to feed him. Her saying yes may feed the ego spiral where he may demand more and more to try and get under her skin and look like superdad whilst actually doing very little.

3. He realises he has lost control over her, so is trying to exert control via the children. If this IS the case, then any action to 'placate' him will lead him to try and demand more and more. This is why some people start demanding more custody, not because they want it, but because they know the other one doesn't want to lose their children. or will go to court to demand she pays half travel costs, showing that she has already set a precedent for doing it. Then he gets a 'victory' controlling ego kibble for making her have to pay when HE wants to see the children.

Probably it's a big old mess of all of those.

The kids have already lost out. It's not really about them, it's about him. Please don't blame her for HIS choices. Then he's succeeded in manipulating you too.

[This message edited by Softcentre at 9:52 AM, March 22nd, 2014 (Saturday)]


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - Susp EA 'The Baker'
COW - EA/PA 'Fat Bottomed Girl'
COW - Susp EA 'MiniMe'

Posts: 836 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, March 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

she has always lived where she lives, the kids have always been driven back and forth for the summer visit. My friend has kept this up cause it means a lot to the kids and it isn't Grandmas fault her S made the choices he has.

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. I asked in response to your saying this:
***I do know 8 hours is a long time. BUT she does this 2x a summer so the kids can see his mom (their grandmother) so its hard to justify that she would do that for the grandmother but not thier father.***

And as I suspected, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges.


I just hate to see these kids know they could be seeing their father " if only"

...."if only" their father weren't a douche. The guy makes zero effort to see his kids or keep in contact with them. No amount of do-gooding on your friend's part is going to change that fact or make it *not true*. I will guarantee you that he doesn't want to see them for the *right* reasons.
Poor kids.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7869 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
ButterflyGirl
♀ Member
Member # 38377
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, March 22nd (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My STBX doesn't even live that far, about 25 minutes, but I make him do all the driving to exchange the kids. And why shouldn't he? I take them to ALL their activities, school, extracurriculars, birthdays parties, grocery, food and clothes shopping, just on and on. Fuck him if he's gonna complain that, God forbid, he had to do a little extra driving..

FuckThatGuy!!


xBW~ 35
Two of the most darling sons ~ 10 and 7

Posts: 2060 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Florida, USA
Topic Posts: 17

Return to Forum: Divorce/Separation Post Reply to this Topic
adultry
Go to :
madness  
© 2002 - 2014 SurvivingInfidelity.com. All Rights Reserved.