IDK and ICR
Hasn't she learned anything yet? That those words are painful. william I'm pissed off for you. I can only imagine how you feel.
Continuing to send you courage and strength.
Thinking of your daughter too.
when did you all start sending photos? IDK
why did you send the photos? IDK
how many photos? ICR
what kind of photos? definitely nude but ICR
when did the photos stop? IDR
was there any flirting in your phone calls or texts? ICR
im not even sure what to make of it. shes full of remorse but just cant seem to remember all sorts of stuff. i KNOW if id been messing around on her id sure as hell remember it because it would have been noteworthy to me, that she cant even remember makes it seem that it was all so casual to her - nothing special, nothing to remember ... which means that she was cheating without even a second thought or even putting importance to her cheating when she was cheating. somehow that makes it seem that much worse
from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA
??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys
2010 - my wife met him outside a club. was a friend of a friend. hes a sound technician for many small bands. she found him "good looking".
june 2011 onwards - my wife started running into him at shows she went too. they talked each time and it got easier to talk as they went. she admits that part of the reason she sought out talking to him was because he was attractive.
sept 2011 - my wife was working for a small time musician. they needed a sound tech. he knew this guy - my wife and he agreed that he would be good for the job. my wife's decision was influenced by the fact that she found him "good looking". phone numbers were exchanged "for work" and one of them added the other to facebook. their facebook conversations were never work related while their phone calls were primarily work related but had some personal element to them. In october 2011 she had a ONS with another guy who worked with the same musician but this guy did not know about it.
sept-oct 2011 - he comes to milan (lives in another city). he was working up the street from where the musician lived. 1x she went up the street to see him - she had brought our daughter to work one day and after work decided to see this guy - she walked with our daughter up the street, met him outside of his work place, and they chatted a few minutes . at this point their discussions hadnt gone much beyond her being unhappy with her marriage and what an asshole I was.
nov to dec 2011 - my wife stopped working with this musician. at this point onwards all contact with this guy had no work relation at all. From this point onwards there were many facebook chats and texts between them and maybe 4-5 phone calls between now and spring 2012.
winter 2011 - he comes to milan for work. my wife met him for a beer for about 30 minutes and engaged in a bragging contest of "who's life is more F'ed up" with him. at this point there was definitely flirting involved. My wife was trying very hard to get his attention.
summer 2012 - photos start. originally of my wife's tattoos. always unsolicited. morphed from my tattoos to definitely my wife's breasts and quite possibly her ass. maybe about 5 photos sent over a roughly 3 month period. All were sent using facebook. while sending him nude photos my wife is also trying to portray herself as a victim/martyr in a bad marriage who is loyally hanging in there despite being incredibly unhappy. she sees how hypocritical this was now but didnt then.
sept 2012 - he is coming to milan. my wife asks him to come by the family business. he does but she is too busy to talk to him. he hangs out in front awhile and then leaves. this is the last time she saw him in person.
sept - nov 2012 - he expresses discomfort with being between involved in the dispute between her and the musician. he gradually stops replying to her texts and eventually doesnt answer the phone. My wife tries to keep their relationship going but eventually the relationship is severed. This story doesn’t really make sense because the relationship with the musician had ended almost 10 months before so its not like he didn’t know about it for a long time. However, my wife has no real explanation although it could tie into the fact that she stopped sending him photos.
June 2013 – false R begins between my wife and i.
July 21, 2013 – goes to a concert with a friend who is also a friend of LTA guy who arranges to meet co-worker with LTA guy. My wife doesn’t leave the group but does “detach”. Afterwards she goes to eat with her friend and while there they see a guy who is a friend of this guy, my wife and he chat together. At the time she doesn’t see that this is a betrayal of her new “commitment” to me and our relationship.
My wife was the driving force behind their relationship becoming personal. She was also the one that brought sex up as a topic for their discussion (not between them but in general). She sent him between 3-5 photos beginning with tattoos, as an excuse to send him photos, and gradually culminating in photos of her breasts (definitely) and possibly her ass. She sent him these photos because she found him attractive and wanted attention from him which he wasn’t giving either enough of or in the right way (he wasn’t explicitly flirting with her enough). She says she often used the same photos for more than one guy so its very possible she shared these with others but cant remember who with. She also asked him for photos but he never sent any to her. She has no idea why she “only” sent 5. She knew that he thought she wanted sex from him and “joked” with her once telling her that if she didn’t stop he might take her up on her offer one day – in a round about sort of way. She says she never really considered that it might actually lead to sex because she thought she was in control of the situation. However, she also concedes that she felt in control of the situation with ONS 1 and ONS 2 guys – up until she was having sex with them and that it is possible she might have ended up in this situation with him too but that there is no way to tell now. she says if she could go back in time she wouldn’t have started really even talking to him at all, just a hi and bye which would have left him as no more than a friend of a friend that she vaguely recognized instead of bringing him into her life and putting herself into a crap position.
There is some debate between us over the word “excited” and “over-excited”. Shes very fluent in many languages, English included …. But its not her mother tongue. Getting her to define those words is difficult, she uses them a lot. I have asked her to get 5 synonyms for each so I can better understand what exactly she means by those words.
this whole story really bothers me, i cant exactly put my finger on WHY it bothers me. perhaps because its the first one so far that she had no prior history with or that didnt involve them both acting inappropriately but instead involved my wife basically chasing this guy. i think this story is going to haunt me for awhile
instead involved my wife basically chasing this guy.
Could it be that your wife has a deep need to please people and that when they either ignore her or start to turn away she tries that much harder to please them?
i posted this in another thread. its something else we have spent the last few days on...
the abuse in my wife's parents house was incredible.
i can still see the mental abuse now, its ongoing. no matter what my wife does its NEVER good enough. whereas her 32 year old brother has never done wrong - despite being an alcoholic drug user who has never had a job, doesnt know how to use washing machine, and has never successfully completed a task (no matter how simple) in his entire life.
the emotional abuse i dont see because it doesnt happen when im there because her family is a little wary of me but i still see flashes of it.i know last week her brother threatened to throw her out a window while her dad sat there silently watching. her mom used to scream she was a whore at age 10 or 11 for wanting to play outside and was told that she must be going to the park to suck dick for money. no kidding. her dad never gave her any attention except to tell her to shut up, that she messed up, or to deliver a kick to her while she was going by.
the physical abuse was astounding. her mom beat the hell out of her regularly. a story that made me whenever my wife needed to go to a dentist as a young child for a cavity. her mom pulled the teeth out - and 2x even got the wrong tooth. not always were these milk teeth but were also permanent teeth.
the sexual abuse was bad. my mother in law made my wifes brother sleep in the bed with her until he was 12, she masturbated him every night. known pedophiles stayed in the house for weeks and months on end. her brother was probably raped several times. my wife - who knows ... she has blank periods in her memory that encompass years of her life. she had a cousin share a bed with her and every night the cousin would masturbate herself to sleep.
the stories go on and on. easily verified stories. i knew a few of the stories before the last year and a half but had no idea of the extent, the pervasiveness, and much of the sexual abuse was kept from me. much of this came out after my wifes mother died.
but my wife doesnt really connect her FOO issues with her cheating. its me that is starting too. she had never really considered it. in fact she had psycho therapy for years (stopped about 5 or 6 years ago) and NEVER told the psychotherapist alot of stuff so the psychotherapist was convinced (and shocked)that my wife had managed to get out of this family mentally intact (she was familiar with the family because child protective custody services remanded my wifes brother there for psychological care). the family is pretty well known to the police and social services as well.
in fact my wife was astounded when i made the connection and told her what i thought. she had never even considered it.
i wish id known much of this stuff before.
but yeah, this explains part of it all. i think. but there are other issues as well that explain another part of it. but of course that still leaves the other half of the equation to be discovered.
my wife isnt in IC yet. the italian system moves slow. however - she has done something HUGE in relates to this (on her own and without my input).
my wifes father is a piece of shit who is very sick. hes unable to care for himself. he picked his son to caregive him. naturally this fuck up cant take care of himself much less the father. at one point they had 2 carrots and a zuchini in the fridge - as the total food in the house. in italy the family is legally liable for the care of the parents - so my wife is legally liable if stupid brother manages to care give his father into the grave. the brother has repeatedly threatened the life of the father and the house is almost devoid now of furniture because hes broken it all in drunken rages. even if he wants this caregiver - it doesnt matter, my wife can be found liable. so my wife has been having to go to the house to feed her father, bring food, etc. ive argued against it - ive argued emancipation legally and let the fucker rot. my wifes said "no, i cant".
so my wife went to social services. reported the situation. the father is going to be put in a nursing home (where my wife will never need to see him again) and most likely her brother will get police visits. social services wanted to know about my wife. she confessed her affairs to them and asked for help - for her and for repairing the massive damage she has done to me, our daughter, and our marriage . they say they are going to try to help her after they sort the father and son out. the wheels are now in motion and can not be turned back or aside in the italian system.
i am a former marine - pretty straight and narrow kind of guy. try to live my life by the code of "semper fidelis" - honorable, honest, etc. i was in a direct action special operations capable unit and after i got out i provided executive security - on the extremely high end of the scale - for at least 15 years (god, i cant think of dates and stuff right now ... im drained) and have taken martial arts since i was a teenager.
so my wife felt safe with me. im not bragging or anything but i AM the most dangerous capable person in the room in darn near most rooms.
i neglected my wife in early to mid 2011. maybe because she was angry at me or maybe she was angry because i neglected her. hard to say now. but i noticed the script being changed - suddenly i was the asshat in the story. yeah, i resented it. i detached. she got angrier. i detached. on and on.
i do know about many of my wife's ex's. one used to spit in her face while having sex with her. another "ordered her" to never contact him - only he could contact her and she had to respond as he chose. she agreed . another, after taking her virginity, told her that it was her fault that he orgasmed so quickly and that she was terrible in bed and they stayed together for quite some time with her hearing this constantly from him. lots of real winners in the history.
my wife did demonize me to EVERYONE during this two year period she was having affairs. i know this. she twisted stories to make them worse than they were. i MADE her go out in a berlin winter while 8 months pregnant and walk 6 blocks to get a cake - the truth is she asked me to go, i said i didnt want the cake, she said she would go, i said "no, ill get it then", she refused and insisted that she would go and did not want me to come and if i did she would be very angry at me. so i let her go. not nice. i know. but certainly not i forced her to get the damn cake. i hate that stupid cake story. its one of her persistent whines and i put up with her version for years and finally corrected that shit this year - called her on bullshit and refused to accept her revision. she was shocked.
so maybe she did twist some stuff with them to worse than it was. but id wager reality was still pretty bad. i take what she says now with a grain of salt and the same with everything that she has told me in the past too. i dont take anything she says on faith anymore. i know where that led and dont want to be there ever again. however, not one of these guys consider themselves normal. they KNOW they are F'ed up.
my wife says she always knew what was right. but she had learned through life to lie, cheat, and manipulate to get around what she didnt want to do or didnt like (and yes, this defines italians in general) - although she had never cheated on anyone before me.
we are now up to
-about a dozen guys she sexted with.
-a ONS with a different guy
-a ONS (that might actually be sex twice) with one of those roughly dozen guys.
-a LT EA/PA
not one of those guys are "normal" either. they are literally the dregs of the sewer. as an example - LTA guy doesnt brush his teeth, is an alcoholic, has anger control issues, and evidently doesnt know you are supposed to even clean a toilet or an apartment.
so WHY my wife chose the most F'ed up people possible while being incredibly gorgeous herself is something i hope to discover one day.
sorry for the length of this post.
i am SO PROUD of my wife for how she decided to stand up, draw a line with consequences, and then enforce them in regards to her dad and brother!! this is really, really, really HUGE for her.
[This message edited by william at 10:51 AM, May 16th (Friday)]
I am too. That is a huge step for her. She certainly has some major FOO issues that she needs to work on if she's ever going to heal herself...and in turn give you some peace of mind. But the fact that she's getting stronger is a great sign. Hopefully she can continue to build on that. There's some horrific stuff in her past that she needs to acknowledge much in the same manner that she has to acknowledge her own atrocities.
Acknowledging my own shit has been just as important as acknowledging my own FOO issues in my healing process. IMO you need to work on both,
but one thing really hit me.
my wife goes to a show at a small club. at this club are the following people:
- ONS 1 guy
- guy she is sexting with and sending nude photos
- this guy
- two people who knew about one ONS 1 guy.
there are about 80 people at the club total.
it never occured to my wife that if you are inappropriately involved with that many people and such a large percentage of the people in a given club - you have an F'ing problem. it does now, but it certainly didnt then.
how someone can have their head stuck that far up their ass ... ill never know.
one was just a stupid guy she had worked with who made inappropriate remarks to everyone. nothing more to him. well, except my wife at a work party decided to help a co-worker climb on a table to dance and got up with her (IDK as reason why), this guy had a photo taken of him pretending to lick my wifes boot (another IDK as reason to allow this).
the other was a sad guy with an unhappy marriage. he confided his problems in my wife. she confided hers to him. mostly on facebook but they did meet 2x to drink coffees together. the main problem here was how she opened a serious window into our marriage to him. the most part of this was that while she was talking to him about saving his marriage and how he should go about doing it ... shes knee deep in her LTA and is sexting multiple people . sometimes the hypocrisy is just astounding. he ended up getting divorced and contact fizzled out.
we are planning on covering another 5 easy people the day after tomorrow. none are ones that she was sexting with, exchanging photos with, or had sex with ... but are rather just more stupid and inappropriate behavior.
this list is really long. we are working on a purely chronological basis - counting their start as the time they entered OUR lives. so if she knew someone in 2002, lost contact, and then regained contact in 2012 they would go under 2012 in order of being discussed. this kind of allows me to better understand all of this crap and how it all went down.
so far im noticing some startling trends.
my wife is looking these people up for the most part - shes got no real idea why. both guys above - one leaves her work and she stays in contact with him. do you like him or even think hes a nice guy? no. so why stay in touch? "idk, i felt i had to reply to his mails". why? "idk". the guy divorcing ... she barely knew him in 2002. she looks him up in 2009 or 2010. why? "idk. i was curious how he was." why do you care? "idk".
my wife seems to put herself into stupid and dangerous positions blissfully unaware that shes putting herself into them. she goes up to a guys room that she barely knows. why? "idk". nothing happened ... but what if he had raped or killed her? of wanted to have sex ... could she have said "no" ... because so far theres a few guys that she didnt want to have sex with but did because she didnt feel she could say "no" to them.
she was handing her phone number, contact information, etc out to anyone and everyone that wanted it. then would talk to whoever it was that called - then feel obligated to call them back later ... and then wind up in sporadic contact with them over a long period of time. she would push the talks to the personal, spilling personal details about herself, me, our marriage, our life, etc to anyone that would listen. they would respond in kind. then shes surprised that personal feelings (not necessarily sexual or "love" although sometimes) would develop (id think its inevitable to develop them after sharing deeply personal talks). it would appear that shes basically offering herself to them in some cases and shed be surprised that they respond but disappointed if they didnt. she craved the attention. then if they pushed it ... she couldnt say no. it seems shes lucky she didnt wind up in more back seats of more cars
on the other hand shes seeing how stupid she was then. shes deeply shamed. shes trying hard not to be that person anymore. i can see the effort in her NOW but i have to wonder how she got her head so far up her ass for so long and that i didnt notice it.
i mean, WTF .. you meet some guy, you exchange phone numbers, you talk 2x, you go to his place to give him a ride somewhere, hes not ready so you leave after a bit, and a few weeks later you are picking him up at his place to take him clubbing with other friends. did the common sense button get turned off or was it never there????
but my wifes behavior with these two guys didnt reach a point of inappropriate that they get numbered and put on the comprehensive timeline that im building.
[This message edited by william at 6:13 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)]
the mother masturbating the brother is just the tip of the iceberg. my wife's mother and father ALWAYS had people staying with the family in the house - amongst others a heroin addict who dangled my wife's brother (as a very small child) out of the window and threatened to drop him unless he got money for drugs, a convicted pedophile, a nymphomaniac who would go to the parks to meet guys for a quickie in the bushes and slept with any male she could - including family - and masturbated in the bed next to my wife (who was then 6-8 years old) every night. the further one digs into the FOO issues the worse it gets. sexual, emotional, and physical abuse were very common.
when i agreed to come to italy with my wife i didnt know most of this, i just knew some weird stories (my wifes mother pulled her teeth by hand and sometimes got the wrong tooth instead of taking her to the dentist type stories), id id known, id never have agreed.
for my wife coming back ... it opened a can of worms in terms of old memories and she would go to their house and get put back into mental and emotionally abuse situations - never when i was there but always when i wasnt. my wife then would minimize it all or keep it secret from me. im only now learning wtf was going on there.
my wife has mental black periods in her life. some cover entire years of her childhood while others cover specific times and incidents. she went to psychotherapy for many years about a decade ago and got much stronger. the psychotherapist knew of the family history and was "shocked" that my wife got out of it unscathed.
but my wife didnt get out of it unscathed. my wife just hid from her psychotherapist the details that would have allowed the psychotherapist to realize that my wife wasnt "unscathed". my wife lied (to herself as well) to the therapist about what her relationships with boyfriends and guys she knew was like - always painting very negative situations so they appeared positive. it caused, IMO, a false diagnosis - sort of like telling a dr your wrist hurts but hiding that your ankle is broken, if you dont mention it hurts or tell him its fine he doesnt look there too deeply. part of this massive coverup was my wife portraying her father as some sort of good guy and her mom as the devil (her mom is the devil and while her father isnt as bad as her ... if he werent compared to the mom he would earn the title devil on his own merits).
we have got the wheels churning in italy for my wife to get counseling, for me to, and for us to get it together. unfortunately, nothing in italy functions very well (perhaps im prejudiced after living in germany for almost a decade where EVERYTHING functions like a swiss watch) and everything takes a very long time (my daughters tooth ache took 1 trip to the dr, 3 trips to the emergency room, and 3.5 weeks to get fixed) and is often done very slapdash (the same tooth ache was caused because a dentist messed up on how he did her filling and left a huge hole inside of the filling).
i posted in the menz thread on this but hearing this stuff is very hard.
there are about a dozen guys she was sexting with, 2 ONS, and a LTA, + almost 50+ OTHER people that she behaved inappropriately with (at minimum opening a window into our marriage and ranging all the way up to flirting with them with everything in between - bad stuff but never terrible, if YKWIM).
i want to know all of it. without knowing, i have no idea of who, what, when, where, or why. i dont count any possible reconciliation as starting until ive found out all the details.
but there are so many people over such a long period of time (all of this was during a two year period) that its not possible to do this in one sit down.its so hard emotionally that we cant even do this everynight - we tried that and realized that we need a "break" in between. so we do it every other night after my daughter goes to bed. we sit and talk for 2-4 hours and cover as much as we can working both by person and chronologically to form an individual timeline per person.
the next day i transcribe both into the PC, email my wife the details, she double checks them to make sure its accurate, corrects what needs correcting, and then sends it back to me. i then enter her corrections into a final version per person and also enter an abbreviated version of those details into a massive timeline that covers everything.
doing it this way means that i get to sit and have diarrhea poured into my mouth (figuratively) as my wife tells me these details. then the next day i get to go over them again as i send them to her and receive them back. so a steady stream of diarrhea is constantly hitting me. its not very nice.
im one of those people who can sleep through anything and get to sleep within a second or two of lying down - at any time. but a month ago the insomnia hit. in finally had to get pills to go to sleep or else see how long i could go with no sleep.
now ive added an anti depressant to the list of drugs im taking. i just read the wiki on it and the side effects are freaking terrifying.
it seems like another injustice that im the one that needs this crap and will be the one that has to deal with the side-effects too.
maybe i just feel down today, but sometimes sh1t just doesnt seem very equitable.
[This message edited by william at 3:34 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]
but my wife doesnt really connect her FOO issues with her cheating. its me that is starting too
i remember going on a run in my unit one time.
no information given to us - no idea how fast we will run, where we will run, how far, etc. we take off from the barracks and run around the base - periodically coming back towards the barracks as if thats the end of the run. of course spirits lift as we see we are "almost done" and then we would veer away and go further out in another direction. the never knowing made it mentally very tough to handle - your body and spirit are worn down and you dont know WHEN its over so you dont know how much more you need to endure. each time we veered away it would crush the spirit just a little more. of course, this is precisely the run was done this way. going through my mind are thoughts of 'quitting' and falling out of the run, its just tough, to fast, to hard, and to much to handle. but i sucked it up and kept running. so did everyone else.
after a brutal pace for about 12 miles we run onto the grass of our barracks - we think "this is it". then we see that our rifles are stacked there and next to the rifles are our packs (each containing a 20 kilo sand bag). we ran over, got our rifles, put on the pack, and THEN went out running again. the feeling of going from "the worst is over and i survived" to realizing "oh crap, there is MORE and its going to get WORSE" was immense and hit like a brick wall. people fell out that had never fallen out of a run before. they hit "the wall" and couldnt get over or through it.
sometimes it feels like ive just run into the barracks, exhausted mentally and physically, and there is the rifle and pack waiting for me to put them on.
this anniversary felt like that to me.
As a marathoner and triathlete I can only imagine the physical and mental anguish you felt that day. But as a BS, nothing is worse. I'd run two marathons back to back before I took on another Dday if I had the choice.
However, I trust that you have the strength to get through this too.
Wishing you the best.
I hope you are being kind to yourself and getting some long needed sleep.
Still here listening...
the first was a former lover of hers from years before we met. in 2011 she looked him up on facebook, chatted with him, exchanged numbers, and talked over the phone. "IDK".
hes married and has children. that was more or less the extent of it. nothing sexual. no flirting. thats it.
the second was a former lover of hers from years before we met as well. in 2011 she looked him on facebook, chatted with him, exchanged numbers, and talked over the phone with him. why any of this? "IDK".
hes married and has children. he lives in rome and when she went in 2011 she called him to meet him there but he couldnt meet her. in 2013 she went back to rome and called him to meet her. they met, had a coffee, chatted, and he gave her a ride to the train station.
in a text he asked her to meet up for sex. my wife didnt encourage it but also didnt say no nor stop talking to him, she made it into a joke. this was before the second rome trip.
im going to let his wife know. she deserves to know shes married to a piece of sh1t who is willing to cheat on her.