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User Topic: Need help and advice - BS welcome too.
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am hoping for some help figuring out what is going on.

Short rundown (all details in my profile); Dday 2 years ago, separated almost 2 years, BW says we are getting D, and I agreed that once she gets a job and insurance we will file. BW says no way to R.

About 2 weeks ago BW and I had another conversation were I again told her I would do anything for a chance at R, she again told me no.

Saturday, I was picking the boys up and while on the phone planning time, BW tells me she had been sick all night. I say I am so sorry to hear that, I can come get the boys right now if needed, BW says no, coming in 30 minutes, I saw o.k. and hang up. Get there 30 minutes later, she is in bed resting, I ask her if she needed me to get her anything, from the store, or whatever, and she gets upset…says ‘why didn’t I ask that while we were on the phone’ that she ‘doesn’t understand how my mind works’ etc.

I was taken aback, but just got the kids, told her if she needed anything later I could get it for her, she said she can take care of it.

So I leave confused, a little pissed off at the exchange, and with my head spinning thinking, fuck, if I only asked on the phone, she would see how great I am and maybe, maybe we can R. forward 1 step, back 3 again.

Then I start to pick it apart, and this is where I need help from SI, did I really do the wrong thing? I realized that part of the reason why I hold back with her is that in the past she has told me that I tend to check in too much, invade her space, and hoover too much. I took that to heart, and have worked hard on detaching. It’s hard, but I am slowly cutting the emotional part of myself off from her.

She is doing the same, but I feel like she is playing both sides with me. If I offer to help or text her, she says no, she is not ready for me to be around, or ignores my texts and tells me that she wants NC. When she wants a certain reaction from me, and I don’t do it, she gets pissed, and then refuses the help anyway. Let me add, she does offer to help with things with me, covers my travel when I am on the road for work, helped after I had minor surgery, etc. By and large we have got a good co-parenting thing going on.

Am I over reacting? I feel like it’s a no-win situation. I also feel like it’s a complete mind game sometimes.

Talk me off the ledge guys, show me what I can do different in the future. Thanks.


[This message edited by badchoice at 12:52 PM, April 7th (Monday)]


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Badchoice, this exchange between you and BW is like an "empathy" case study, and I'm a newbie, but I'd like to dissect it in terms of what I learned from reading Nonviolent Communication by Rosenberg, which should be required reading for every human.

First, good on you for expressing your feelings, you said you felt confused and pissed off at the exchange, and I'm seeing you take responsibility for your feelings instead of blaming them on BW. Well done, the IC must be working.

There are several possible interpretations of "Why didn't you ask that while we were on the phone?" and a few that spring to mind are:
"I'm annoyed at myself, because as soon as we hung up I kicked myself for not asking you to pick up Nyquil."

"I'm annoyed at you, because you didn't offer to bring me anything when you heard I was sick!"

"Now I'm feeling guilty/conflicted, because you're expressing concern for my health and being Mr. Nice Guy, but you broke my heart and I still don't want to R."

The "I don't understand how your mind works" was a put-down, because she was deflecting her feelings (annoyance, or whatever) and shifting the blame onto you. If she wanted you to pick something up, she coulda asked while you were on the phone, but maybe she wanted to avoid the appearance of being indebted to you. And she could've taken you up on your offer after you arrived, but that would've required her to thank you...and maybe that's just not comfortable for her. Maybe that feels too intimate.

When she wants a certain reaction from me, and I don’t do it, she gets pissed, and then refuses the help anyway.

You're not overreacting, your reaction was totally valid and understandable. But, you may be over-analyzing BW.

You asked what you could do better in the future. Why are you offering to help her, if she usually reacts that way? Yeah, obvious, but ask yourself. Are you selflessly doing it because you love and care for her, and you want to make her life easier? Or, are you trying to win her back? Both reasons are fine and valid, all I'm suggesting is you be clear with yourself about your motivations. In any case, as hard as it is, let go of the outcome. If she keeps getting pissed about these things, I reckon you'll eventually quit offering and/or quit caring if she gets irrationally angry at you for not being a mind-reader. You can't control her reactions, only your actions.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1236 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

20wrongs, thanks for your feedback...

Are you selflessly doing it because you love and care for her, and you want to make her life easier? Or, are you trying to win her back?

great question, one I ask myself all the time, and really, while at first it was cause I was willing to do anything to 'win' her back, I have let go of that, and do things because I do love and care for her.

It is when the conversations get off track that I start to think "if only i did things better, maybe that will win her back" When she tells me that I got what I wanted, out of the marriage, I start to try to argue with her about that, that is not what I wanted or want, and there is just no fighting that. I am slowly learning that I do not have to engage, I can just accept that she thinks what she thinks, and I cannot change her mind.

You can't control her reactions, only your actions.

Yep


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
Teach8
♀ Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((Badchoice)). As a bs who never asked for nc, I'm probably not a lot of help. But I hear your pain and your second guessing of your actions. You offered to pick the kids up early, you offered to run out and get her anything she needed. Maybe you could have asked on the phone, but you asked. I think that is the most important thing. You expressed concern and caring. Don't torture yourself too much.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 509 | Registered: Aug 2012
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 4:19 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And to paraphrase a couple SI maxims you've seen 1000 times...

Infidelity can be a deal-breaker. No matter what/who you become now, "No" may be her final answer.

You can't "nice" her back into the M.

By and large we have got a good co-parenting thing going on.

Focus on the positives, and what you can control. Incidentally...is she looking for employment?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1236 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 5:15 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Incidentally...is she looking for employment?

Yes, she is, and she is also planning on going back to school to complete her degree and update her skills in her field. That will take her until earl next year, but she is looking in the mean time too.

And thanks for your feedback. I keep thinking that I have accepted that it was a deal breaker, and then I realize that I still think there is a shot, contrary to everything she has said. I keep seeing hope in things that are not hope or signs, and I know that being so enmeshed is not always good.

It is just so depressing after we have a conversation that seems normal and real, and then it all hits me like a ton of bricks; IT WAS A DEALBREAKER.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't torture yourself too much.

That is the hard part. I analyze everything to the extreme. I over think, I over plan, etc.

The guilt plays a huge part in it too.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
Teach8
♀ Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I so understand. I realize saying that and doing it are totally different things. I have to pick apart everything and scrutinize it from every angle. But honestly, in this instance, you did offer to do something nice for her. Maybe it wasn't exactly what she had in mind, but you did it. You are in nc. I don't think you can be expected to be totally in tune with her wants and needs. Even when couples are together they can't be expected to read minds. You are walking on egg shells. I can imagine how difficult it is too figure out what's too much or not enough when it comes to her wants and needs. It must be a difficult line to walk.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 509 | Registered: Aug 2012
SBB
♀ Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think this is the first time I've noticed that you're a madhatter. Friend, not only is this a dealbreaker for her she also sounds like almost every other unremorseful wayward out there.

I'm guessing her infidelity was/is not a dealbreaker for you.

Tell me, do you think she is emotional cake eating?

You are in limbo hell. There is nothing you can do if this is a dealbreaker for her. There is nothing you can do that can make her remorseful. Has she done any work on herself?

You would have read many times in S/D that a wayward has a big head start on us because they detached long before we ever became aware of it.

You did nothing wrong here. Perhaps in her eyes you can do nothing right. That's all her - not you.

Keep doing the work - for you and your future. There has l come a point where you have to push yourself off the fence. I don't know if her actions are giving you false hope or if you're doing that to yourself. I don't know if your co-parenting is in fact is actually a functioning co-parenting arrangement rather than a dysfunctional arrangement thinly veiled as 'co-parenting'.

You are way too enmeshed. I've seen madhatters here talk about learning to wear their BS hat without the crippling guilt of their WS hat. Perhaps you need to try to do that.

Madhatter, WS or BS we all have to reach a point where we choose what we'll tolerate, how much abuse we'll take, how much we abuse ourselves and make some very hard decisions for our healing.

Will you wait until she has a new SO? Would that change your decisions here?

How long will you keep your life on hold? How long will you keep self flagellating?

Don't think about who you want her to be or what you could have - take a good, long hard look at who she is and what you do have.

As a great tag line here says: Always know if the juice is worth the squeeze.

[This message edited by SBB at 7:36 PM, April 7th (Monday)]


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

emotional cake-eating

I've said before that this is the feeling I get from many of your described interactions.

However, take that with a grain of salt because I realize that your interactions also have the added component of children involved so it's different than what I would be familiar with.

To answer your question, though: I don't think you did anything wrong. You can make yourself crazy overanalyzing things like this...I've been there.

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 7:30 PM, April 7th (Monday)]


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried.


Posts: 2232 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SBB, I appreciate your feedback, I really do, a lot to think about. My first reaction is to defend BW and I think that is part of my problem. I let my guilt and shame for what I did be the focus.

I will say this though, BW is very remorseful for what she has done. That I am sure of.

Is she cake-eating emotionally? Maybe.

Will you wait until she has a new SO? Would that change your decisions here?

How long will you keep your life on hold? How long will you keep self flagellating?

I wish I knew the answer to this. Again, this is something that in my head I know what I need to do and should do.

heart - thanks.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
SBB
♀ Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will say this though, BW is very remorseful for what she has done. That I am sure of.

I ask again - what work has she done? By now you know the difference between regret and remorse.

What makes her worth all of this self-loathing? Or I should ask why aren't you worth self-love? If R is still your nexus for healing and self-love then you're either not really doing the work or you're not doing it for yourself.

What would be different about how you feel about yourself if you were in R and she was treating you like this?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

What she is doing has nothing to do with you. It is all her. What you are doing has nothing to do with her. It is all you.

I'm considered a madhatter here. His betrayal was a dealbreaker for me. D was speeded up by his complete lack of remorse but even if he had been the poster boy for remorse it would not have made it NOT a dealbreaker. All about me - not him. It just was.


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, April 7th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SBB;

What work, IC, seminars on self expression and growth, years of introspection, etc.

I get what you are getting at though. I have asked myself if BW asked me to R, would I jump at it, or think about it.

What makes her worth all of this self-loathing? Or I should ask why aren't you worth self-love? If R is still your nexus for healing and self-love then you're either not really doing the work or you're not doing it for yourself.

It's all about me at this point. My guilt over what I have done is what I am still dealing with. While R is not what I consider to be the nexus of my healing, it was my focus for a long time during my first year and 1/2 post dday. Over the last 6 months I have made strides in the areas of detachment, making my own path in my life, and feeling good about myself. With that being said, I have these times where I struggle with it, and again, I see how this comes down to self esteem and self love/care.

Self care is something I am working on in IC.

What would be different about how you feel about yourself if you were in R and she was treating you like this?

What I see is that I would talk about how it made me feel, about how I felt it was unreasonable, but with NC, I feel like it is not appropriate and I do not want to look at BW as that support network when I have others.

Thanks SBB- lots to think about and process.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 2:08 AM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So BC, you know me and you know that I don't give any type of *credit* to a WS who, imo, doesn't deserve it. I look at a situation six ways to Sunday before that happens.

I've done that, and I just can't *find* where you erred in this situation (and you also know that I have an incredibly *soft spot* for Beach).

But for *practical* reasons, the two of you would have started divorce proceedings. There is no chance of R in your future.

So to this situation: she says she's sick and you offer to get the boys <whenever>. I think that if you had *offered* her anything else at the time, your offer would have been rebuffed (not to mention boundary-crossing and overly intrusive/solicitous based on your particular circumstance). If she wanted or needed something, she could have asked. So you get to the house and see with your own eyes that she's *really* not feeling well.......and you extend the offer of <some type of help> to her.

did I really do the wrong thing?

Unless you have left out some type of pertinent info, I just can't *find* any mis-steps on your part. (and trust me, I looked for them).

I don't know that you could do anything more than what you did different in the future in order to get a different outcome.

It is when the conversations get off track

You two need to move to text/email only conversations. The *voice* communication is keeping both of you in a state of animated suspension.

Without knowing *her* side of the story......it doesn't seem that you are over-reacting and it DOES seem as if you were in a no-win situation. FWIW, I see your actions as reasonable and her response to you as out-of-whack.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8088 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
badchoice
♂ Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Gonna.

You two need to move to text/email only conversations. The *voice* communication is keeping both of you in a state of animated suspension.

I know, but I think it's the one thing that gives me hope when there really isn't. I get that it is most likely the unhealthiest thing I do at this point. I have gotten rid of all of my other unhealthy habits, but this, I cannot seem to let go of. I know it is holding me back n my being able to completely heal and move forward.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
Topic Posts: 15

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