Don't leave SI. You are smart enough to weed out the non-constructive responses. There are pearls in these posts.
wow, what a crappy thing to say to someone that already has expressed they're leaving the site due to remarks like yours.
wow, what a crappy thing to say to someone that already has expressed they're leaving the site due to remarks like yours.
You're right, the first sentence was harsh.
I apologise Split.
The second part is just something for Split to think about.
It may or may not be valid.
"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras
There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Anyway, from a broad pov, I think things like "It doesn't matter; these things will never affect our world." If I get the debate itch, I go to a political forum & engage a bit.
And it threw me off when something I always assumed would be a theoretical difference of opinion had a real potential to cause unrest in our marriage. I'm hoping that we'll be able to bridge future issues as they arise. It's a learning experience, to be sure, and I truly do lean on the MC advice/lessons on how to hear each other, converse, understand. It's my nature to worry about things that may never happen...it's a control thing. I like to prepare for all possible outcomes. It's a coping mechanism.
My best thinking brought me to SI.
You're surprised that your H has a very 'law and order' approach to your suggestion that you illegally obtain something for a relative. However, you empirically state that if he ever found out about your A, he would summarily D you. Therefore, I'm surprised that you are surprised at his attitude. IMO, this is a case of your not knowing yourself. Perhaps not wanting to know yourself.
Also, you say that you like to debate. I understand that. I love a good discussion. You did have a debate. You want to do something, and you want him to agree that it is a good thing because you see it as a good thing. He can't agree, and he has given you his reason. That, my dear, is a debate. I would suggest that your intent was for approval, not debate.
You have to be honest with yourself. That is the basis of this site. Some self-examination might be in order.
Ok, people, I seldom come to Wayward, and I see no stop sign.
1. Every veteran knows that full disclosure is (ultimately) the best policy.
2. splitintwo is (currently) in the take-it-to-the-grave camp.
3. We are all concerned for her BH. Hell, as a BH myself, I certainly am.
4. Nonetheless, the way to change her mind is not to beat her over the head. She's proven that her skull breaks 2x4's.
5. splitintwo has more issues than Newsweek. FOO issues, addiction issues, fog issues. She's mere weeks out of the A, and only days into NC.
I propose it might be more fruitful if y'all try to help her gain what control she can. Aid her in making baby steps in the areas she's trying hard. GENTLY point out the logical inconsistencies, like her insistence that her BH is an idiot, so it's ok for her to make all the important decisions in the marriage by herself.
Help her deal with these HUGE immediate issues:
1. Addiction (split, are you in a program?)
2. Addiction (split, is your BH in alanon?)
3. NC. Help her find the strength.
4. Father's suicide (split, are you in IC?)
5. KISA tendencies (split, what are your priorities? Who's important to you? What is the legacy you leave them?)
6. split's self-harm (split, do you have the suicide prevention line on speed-dial?)
7. MC. Yes, it's limited by her living a lie, but limited is not worthless. Building a house on a foundation of sand, but maybe there's time to shore it up later.
Help her make the baby steps, gain some control, some perspective, and some maturity. Control looks like the main issue to me. She's good at controlling other people, but needs to learn to control herself. And to learn to see there are things she can't control.
splitintwo, you're new enough, but you have noticed the SI wayward's justly earned reputation for being hard on newbies. It's because they care. You just don't see that they're right. Yet.
Hang around. Don't go away. Get stronger. Get better.
It won't hurt you to listen to what people say. You still get to choose your own path. We all do.
Sad in AZ--I don't know why I didn't associate his "law & order" worldview with this, but I didn't. My sister thinks I'm a dumbass because she saw it coming, but still.
And I wanted discussion, or at least, I was open to it. But this is how it went initially. "Things are looking grim. Even the PA at her doc's office is telling her to go buy some pot. I know someone who could get it" and then BH interjects (because he can see where I'm going) with an immediate "no. It's illegal."
That is not a discussion. Sometimes it's not bout being right, it's about being heard. I needed him to hear me re: my helplessness with her suffering, he needed to hear that I've accepted her death, I'm only interested in easing her passing. And so on. We actually needed to talk it through. And we did. But we both have a tendency to jump to end game, and at that point, one of us needs to back it up & walk us through the steps for how we got to that point. Odds are decent we've made a wrong assumption or two along the way, & it's good to hash it out.
[This message edited by splitintwo at 6:47 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]
I don't pretend to know your full situation, but what I've learned in IC is that personally I need to find ways to stimulate my wild/risky/high seeking side and not just bury her. We're exploring ways to incorporate acceptable challanges and risks so I don't feel the need to binge with another A or alcohol. This was a big revelation for me, and I really want to stop the cycle before I topple over this wonderful life of mine. Plus I want to actually feel every day that this wonderful life is wonderful.
Keep opening up here. You are getting some remarkable advice and encouragement. I don't know if anything I have said has helped in anyway, and I hope you see that I was not trying to attack or offend you in any way.
As I said previously, I am the BW in my M. However, I do know how hard it is to look at who you really are and what you are capable of. I have been there, and in many respects still am. I am a work in progress and have my own unhealthy patterns that I am trying to break. So I can relate to you very much on working on yourself and offer my support as you struggle.
((split)) you are safe here. I'm glad to see you letting down your defenses.
We actually needed to talk it through. And we did. But we both have a tendency to jump to end game, and at that point, one of us needs to back it up & walk us through the steps for how we got to that point. Odds are decent we've made a wrong assumption or two along the way, & it's good to hash it out.
You were able to talk this out and reach a compromise. It sounds like you asked for more discussion and he was open to it. From your post it seems you're worried about a hypothetical issue coming up where you cannot agree. Why not cross that bridge IF you come to it?
My question is, do you like who your husband is as a person? Does thinking about him make you smile? Do you laugh with him? Agree (for the most part) on how to raise your children? I think those questions are more important than the possible future issue you might have. Think about all of the positive qualities your H has. Do you want to be a better person FOR him?
I also deal with the urge to disappear. It doesn't seem as bad now as yours seems to be but it's there. I can't compartmentalize but sometimes I shut off the emotions that have come with traumatic events. I now know that's not healthy. All it does is keep you from feeling anything at all. I fight my urge by trying to connect with people who know me and love me.
Gently, you do seem to have some thinking that is a little awry (such as the idea that truth is somehow a dangerous thing), so I hope that you can strengthen yourself and find the courage to go to IC, and to read, or go to AA if that is applicable. To reach out. I am guessing your affair was a reaching out of sorts, but in an inappropriate and ultimately self-destructive way.
It feels to me like you are a person who has so thoroughly fortressed their heart, that they have difficulty recognizing help or real kindness when it is being offered. There is so much wisdom here. . not every person will resonate with you, but hang in there, and try to have courage.
I won't comment on the argument other than to say that you are likely not seeing your H clearly right now, and should probably hold off on any judgements about your M until you get some assistance. Marriage is all about compromise, and 2 people having a difference of opinion on a naturally divisive topic is hardly reason to call your marriage into question. However, looking for reasons to discount your H and his point of view is sort of standard wayward behavior.
Things can look very different in six months if you take risks and allow yourself to be uncomfortable. You can handle it; lesser people have.
[This message edited by bionicgal at 8:58 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]
I edit, therefore I am.
Since I can dry drunk, I can mitigate some damage.
You go on telling yourself, honey. But as someone who is watching her alcoholic elderly mother die a very slow death, I'm not buying into your delusion. There is no way to mitigate any damage when you're still an active alcoholic, dry or otherwise. All that can happen is the damage gets compounded. And it's ugly, really really ugly.
Pretty pretty please, don't you ever ever feel
Like you're less than, less than perfect
I know that ^ isn't a popular opinion and it doesn't fit in every situation but I do think it is an option, for some people.
My WH have opposite view points on a lot of issues near and dear to our hearts. In the past it has caused me to question why I was even with him, so strong were my values on certain issues. Thankfully, we now work through these issues with consences decision making and are willing to step aside if an issue is essential for the happiness of the other.
If we had a doomed relationship, it won't need this to push things along. Conversely, if we had a strong relationship, he doesn't need to know how I've robbed him of the image of the GF he thought he has.
He told me I'm an expert liar and I think because like jokes, for it to be effective, it needs to have a certain degree of truth. I justified myself out of every single good deed I could have done for myself (not lie about attractions to another man, not start the EA and then not turn it into a PA). The truth I'm uncovering in the past few weeks are that I'm so good at lying, I lied to myself and failed to protect myself. By protecting myself I mean the choice to start any EA/PA isn't one that brings good into your life and should be avoided at all costs. Obviously I failed to protect him as well; he was so emotionally invested in me and the amount of pain resulting from my actions was excruciating to endure. It's like watching your SO bleed profusely, staring at your hand holding the knife and watching it stab repeatedly. The problem for him was, the longer I held the truth, the more it hurt.
Some debated that with time, you allow the relationship to develop and you to build up that trust again since the infidelity. I'll say it takes some love and great fears of loss to keep at it.
TrustedHer brought up a great point that is applicable to me as well: control is a huge issue. I recognize now it isn't fair to play with someone's life like this, to deny him of his opportunity at any stage of life to make a decision on his significant other.
I wish you the best of luck. Instead of thinking that you will take this to your grave, you probably should consider if it can be hidden until his passing. After your passing, the only person who can answer his questions is now gone and he's left to suffer alone.
I wish you strength in whatever your endeavor but most of all, strength to really understand yourself.
[This message edited by timidhope at 12:10 AM, April 23rd (Wednesday)]
Here you are. You are still posting after you have been challenged, disagreed with and 2x4'd. You could have disappeared in a huff to go find another forum with folks who would be your yes-men, but you didn't. You are still here and still engaging. You are trying to look at yourself straight- on and I commend you for that.
Good for you. Trying for honest self examination is some scary shit. Opening up to the possibility that there are other ways you could handle this situation -I see that just barely beginning. Any steps down the path to self improvement and growth are good steps, and not wasted. You may end up in a place you never thought you could attain. I do wish you the best and I hope you continue with this work you've begun.
What I write below is not to bash you. I spent 4 years in MC, and our counselor, a very kind and intelligent woman, had to really work with my wife on her perceptions because of her FOO issues and her codependent and secretive behavior.
"Pot" that you can get, with minimal risk, he may see as much riskier as he looks at his kids and his wife and thinks of "what's the worst that can happen" (one of my childhood friends found that out, he died with a bullet in his head over a little pot, left behind a wife and a fatherless child). You view it differently. Sounds like you still view it differently. From what you write it sounds like he and you came to a conclusion with the palliative care doctor angle, but you are still obviously stewing over it.
Does he know that you are still stewing over it?
Then, there is the affair, which he doesn't know about, and which colors every conversation and disagreement you have. Are you sure, when you are in disagreement, about anything, and he is irritated or angry, doesn't matter what it is, that you aren't standing there thinking "if you really knew what I'd done you'd really be angry".
From what I've learned, in 4 years of MC as well as in 30 years of professional practice, I'd be inclined to believe that you are involved in an invisible power struggle with your husband, that he may not even be aware of (or if he is aware of it he is not aware of how serious and deeply it runs) so he simply cannot understand you and your positions and where you are coming from.
You cheated on him with another man, this is not truly a secret, others know, but it is hidden from your husband. He is kept ignorant.
Others know. Think of the position it puts him into. Go onto the BS postings and think about what it is like for the perceptions others have of your husband when they know that he is clueless that his wife betrayed him. How could he be clueless, "trust", suspicious untrusting people are never clueless...they have clues all the time and we call them paranoid and fearful. Trusting people are laughed at behind their backs by others, and I've witnessed that behavior by men who laugh when they talk about how the f----- someone other guys girlfriend or wife and the spouse or partner doesn't know about it (never mind that these are some of the most messed up men I've ever known who have really awful personal lives).
resent me for being willing to break the law & put our family at risk
What is his job as a father? To protect his family, first and foremost. What is your job as a mother? To protect your family, first and foremost. Not to relieve your relatives suffering, she has doctors and nurses for that. I know, I've been through that more than once with family, and doctors do actually know what they are doing particularly today with hospice agencies and hospice nursing. They don't need you to put your family at risk.
Yet, you indicate that you are willing to put your family at risk, and have already done so in other ways.
I can't conceive of a way to bridge that gap
Perhaps that is where you should start, perhaps that is the problem.
I value intellectual connection, debate, all that, and I can't get it at home very often
No, you don't. You have lied to your husband, cheated on him, conceal things from him, and continue to engage in that behavior with others to his detriment.
You have said as much, you can't be honest with him, open with him, or the marriage ends. By doing so, you are manipulating him with your behavior, to protect you from the consequences of your own actions. You are not protecting him, or your children. You are protecting yourself. Dishonesty in the marital relationship affects the children in ways you can't imagine.
I will do anything in my power to help ease her suffering
That is not constructive behavior for someone who has higher priorities, namely the safety and security of your husband and children. That is what is referred to as Knight in Shining Armor behavior.
Opposing world views don't cause disconnection or irreparable harm in marriages, dishonesty and deception do. You will never get that "connection" unless you are willing to engage in constructive relationship struggles that ALL relationships have, in an honest and open manner. If you color that with secrets that you know will end the relationship, then you are manipulating the other person into staying, not letting them make the decision based on the truths.
Good luck, but there is no way this ends well without honesty, openness, and willingness to talk and letting the other person be free to make their own decisions.
And this OP illustrates that yet again. I posted because it was still nagging at me days after the situation had resolved in my favor. That told me, clearly, that it wasn't about getting what I wanted, but I didn't know what it was about...talking gives clarity, outside views give clarity, framing it gives clarity.
And, for me, it wasn't about the win. It's not about verbally beating my husband into submission of my idea of right (I know it comes across that way here, but in actual practice, this is not a fair assessment of our life & our interactions). It was about the fact that I thought I "knew" my husband & I could still be blindsided by his reaction. Had I anticipated it, I'd have approached the entire conversation differently. As it was, I took a very casual approach because I thought we were on the same page from the start. We weren't. That opened up a flood of "what ifs" in my brain, and like I said...it all goes back to control.
Like someone said, I have more issues than Newsweek. I work hard at NOT blaming those things because I don't want to allow them to have control over me, my actions, my behaviors. With damn near all of the things I battle against, I had no control of the original situation. It's important to me to own my behaviors now because I want to feel like I have control over them. I realize this can go rather badly, be taken to the extreme, all of that, and I'm working on it.
I do appreciate the honesty in this thread & in SI in general. Leaving here would be detrimental to me, and I don't wish to do that. I just need to control future threads with a stop-sign, at least until I'm at the point that I can handle the potential wrath of many BSs at my current stance of focusing on fixing myself without allowing my husband to have the ability to honestly assess our marriage in light of my A. I hear you. I understand your POV. Your arguments make sense. But I cannot do that. And my reasoning relates to this point from bionicgirl:
you do seem to have some thinking that is a little awry (such as the idea that truth is somehow a dangerous thing)
I know me. I know I have been completely shut off from emotion for over 30 years. I am only just now starting to feel again. Slowly. One thing at a time. One layer at a time. One emotion at a time. I needed to implode to find truths about me that I didn't know. I needed to break to a point where I'd get help. And I've begun that process. I was able to use SSRIs to fix the "off" parts of my brain, and now that I'm off of them, I can finally begin addressing my issues for real & without being mired in the incapacitating hell of depression.
And because I'm actually doing that...taking the hard look, reflecting, reading, trying to fix me...I can't give myself the "out" that this truth--my A--affords. My instinct is cut&run, and I will always, always have some part of me that wants to hide in a bottle. The quickest route to that life is to allow myself to be cast out, fulfill the "unworthy, horrible person" inner monologue, etc. Like I said--It's control. It's dealing with a stream vs. a flood. If I want to fix me--and I do--I need to take it one step at a time.
As a somewhat related point--I think I finally understand what you're talking about when you all mention the affair fog. I had trouble grasping this for a long time because my affair--at least the parts that mattered to me--was "over" long before I stopped behaving inappropriately. Looking back, I can see those fuzzy parts...I can see the fog timeframe rather clearly. And I can see it lifting. When my SSRIs started working, it helped even more. I gained more clarity when I accepted my alcoholism (it's no real shock that my sobriety date & the end of my affair are one in the same). Every day, I get a bit more grounded. Every day, I feel a little bit more. And most days, that's a scary place to be. But I am here. And that's what matters.
Split, you are not getting the *wrath* of BS's in this thread. We are not being hyper emotional and unreasonably angry at you. We are giving you our perspective, quite rationally and under control (if we don't, the mods will ban us).
I do think you are trying to protect your children. I think you believe you are protecting your BH and your marriage. And I think you are fundamentally mistaken in these beliefs.
I'm glad you're sticking around and working through the other issues in yourself and in your marriage. Good luck in resolving these. And even more sympathy and good luck to your BH.