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It's been a weird sort of week R wise. I keep on having these thoughts that it's really time to let go of some of the pain and negative thoughts that I am clinging on to. I'm over 20 months out now and I have this hankering to take a leap forward in my recovery.

Our attempt at R has, so far, been a bit brutal. My biggest stumbling block has been relentless anger. A torrent of it. fWS has in many ways been a really good fWS - always willing to talk about the A and R(if I bring it up), kind, willing to do anything I ask of him, happy to not do anything I don't feel comfortable about, spending all his free time with me and the family, fully committed to R... but in others not so great - he gets angry when I am angry for any length of time, conflict avoidant, blame-shifts (not about the A, but about other stuff) inclined to be defensive.

Both of us, while not always successfully (sometimes not even remotely!) have genuinely worked hard at digging through the mess, facing our issues, trying to improve. But for the last while I have felt stuck. It's like we're in this cycle of having a good patch - lots of talking, lots of progress - and then stumbling over the same old issues and getting into a downward spiral (I get angry, he gets angry, I get more angry, he gets defensive and cold, I get resentful), slowly coming out of it and then... wash-rinse-repeat.

I've been feeling very strongly that we have to somehow get off this track, we can't keep going round and round like this. I feel like we aren't achieving anything by covering the same old ground again and again. It's becoming really destructive.

I think that the problem is that often when the going has been good for a while I pain-shop. I will start dwelling on A-related hurts and then my anger starts building and ... there we go... I think it's time for me to let go of some of those hurts, and I figure the only way to do that is to accept them. That stuff happened - it's not going to go away - confronting fWH about this stuff again and again is not going to make it go away - dwelling on it is not helping....

So yesterday I made an extremely long and detailed list of all the things I need to accept (thanks LA44 for the idea) and I thought about it and honestly, I reckon 90% of it I have accepted, it still hurts, but I have accepted it and I can sort of let it go - not forget about it, but stop carrying it around in my pocket like a pebble I can't stop rolling around in my fingers. My issue is with the 10%... there are those same old issues I can't find rest with.

One of the issues is something that has bugged the hell out of me from Day 1. fWH is adamant that he never mentioned me or our marriage to OW (co-worker, she met my kids, he wore his wedding ring the entire time) He says not once did she ask what the story was with our marriage and not once did he ever raise the issue. Had it been a ONS or a short fling I could buy it. But he slept at her house on alternate week nights, every week, for 4 months. He was accepted by her family. They told each other they loved each other. He phoned me from her house. HOW can it be possible that she would put herself right out there emotionally, physically and never enquire what the long-term prospects were, when he was living in her house for half the week?? I can't accept that. I can't believe it. It is a huge problem for me. I can't let it go, I keep coming back to it.

We have discussed it in MC and she says it is one of the things I am going to have to accept and let go. HOW?

There are a couple of other issues that I also have trouble letting go, but this ^^ is the big one.

So, please, can anyone give me advice on how to get past this? How can I force my mind to not go there? How can I believe he is telling the truth? Why is this so important to me, especially in light of all the other stuff that I have accepted?

I really feel that if we can clear up these issues, we will take that leap and get off this treadmill. I just don't know how

Not sure I have any great answers, but... everything I know about the A is from WH. I have zero external verification of anything. No texts, no emails. WH insists that they just didn't communicate much when they weren't together. Is that true? I have no way of knowing. I did see a set of emails where WH is trying to help her get jobs, both in places that would have split them up, which verifies that there was no long-term plan to be together (they were from quite a while back, too, so he couldn't have planted them).

In short, I have to take pretty much everything he says about the A on faith. That has been very hard for me to accept, but I guess I'm at the point now where I feel like... well, it's either all true or all not true. Either I'm the subject of a truly grand hoax, or it is what it is. Even if he is still lying to me about details (which I honestly don't think he is), what does it matter? We're here now. He's not perfect, but he's doing all I can expect from him. Like your WH, he's defensive at times -- and he recognizes this and is working on it. I suppose I'm just so exhausted by the whole thing now I can't be bothered to dig and I just don't care. This awful thing happened -- who cares about the details?

I've never been one to know all, though, and perhaps this is a form of denial on my part.

Are you in counseling? It sounds like both of you may be talking at cross-purposes -- that each of you have needs that the other is missing. It sounds like both of you recognize your patterns, but maybe you don't recognize the emotion (and emotional history) that's fueling the patterns? Perhaps if you can get at that, you can de-escalate?

Right now I'm reading Gottman's The Science of Trust, which has some interesting stuff about how we get stuck in these negative interactions.

I've been struggling with something similar in terms of feeling stuck. It is such a depressing place to be, especially when it feels like overall we have come so far and our relationship is so much better.

I got the same line with regard to never discussing me. I grilled WH repeatedly on the issue as it made no sense. Why would she stick around, put herself out there, want to make future plans, etc. with someone who not only wouldn't discuss his wife, but in my case straight up told her he loved me?!

Maybe some of what I figured out will ring true in your case. If not, ignore me

First, these guys are master compartmentalizers. If your WH is like mine, when he was with her, he didn't want to think about you. If he thought about you, let alone talked about you, the fantasy would collide with reality. She probably asked about you, and he probably gave some distant dismissive reply that made it clear he wasn't interested in talking about it or changed the subject. Just a guess, but seems like for the highly conflict avoidant WS's out there, this is the MO.

In terms of what she was getting, here is my guess: she found a guy who was a "great listener." He let her talk and talk about her problems, complimented her, and made her feel good about herself. Since he was cheating, she figured there had to be something awful about you and he was just too good a guy to speak badly of you She was unhappy, broken, and in desperate need of validation. He gave her attention, validation and listened to her. Because he kept coming back again and again, she figured if she waited it out, and made herself the better option, he would leave you.

This is all conjecture. I don't know WTH OW was thinking. She is someone I can't ever begin to relate to, and more than anything I feel sorry for. My WH was offering very little. But, it does help me to make sense of something that makes no sense at all - and more importantly, accept it.

I agree that the subject (your M) may have come up once and he let it be known that would be the last time. And yup, her being broken, knew not to cross that line again.

Perhaps she liked the part time arrangement. I begin to think if WH and I end up D, I most likely would not want/need a man around full time. If they said they loved each other, who knows if that is really true.

I'm only 4 months out and know there will be a lot that will take some time to come to accept. With so much still to work through, I wonder what will be "that one thing". Or maybe there is just too much and we won't R after all. Time, time, time....

I understand why a MC would desire this. And truly, if this is not a deal breaker, then you can try to move on and accept. Perhaps, you can just shelve it for now and the answers you seek will come later as you work through others areas of healing.

Personally, I would ask what will change if I know? Will I still hurt not knowing? Can I continue to live with myself? I too have lists. My very first list started with it still hurts because...... Now my list has changed. It has more of a focus on his betrayal, his decision process, less on her. Some things we work on together, some things he works on and must tell me the truth. these are the deal breakers. (From here, I know to call BS when the trite, common WS versions spew from his mouth. The saddest part is that he actually believes them at first.)

I cannot tell from your post if your driving concern is her knowing intimate things about you or that he talked trash about you or that she is or has talked trash about you or sadly, if you just ceased to exist the minute he walked out the door for her.

Do you believe you never came up as he shared his dreams while he was on his best behaviour with her. You were part of his life, how did he skip over that. Or maybe the minute he walked out the door, you ceased to exist. There isn't a happy ending here at all if you think it through. No wonder this hurts you so much.

I do believe that he gave her hope-hope for the future, a future with him. She introduced him to her family, made him part of her life. Did she have enough hope to believe she would become the better partner or the better wife, if that was her goal. To me these things come from sharing intimate details of ourselves with others, where we can envision more than what we have now. NJF's speaks more eloquently to this than I can.

Knowing this, can you change your line of questioning to when did you quit thinking of me, when did you start thinking about me, did you ever think of me when you were with her.

(((hugs)))

edited because my battery died.

[This message edited by ItStillHurts at 3:29 PM, April 25th (Friday)]

(((Itsaclimb)))

Would he take a polygraph? One question I asked during my H's poly was if he ever told OW that he would leave me. He didn't. Yet she hung on for almost four years of decreasing frequency late night booty calls.

My H says that he never discussed me, or her H. She was in the "work" compartment of his life. She actually got divorced during, and a few times threw that in his face. He claims that he quickly shut her down and told her that her divorce didn't have anything to do with "them". (He didn't think of her and him as "them".) Now they never professed their love, but she did waste lots of years. My H assumed that early on she thought he may be unhappily married (cause why cheat otherwise, right? WRONG! He knew better, of course).

Later he flat out told her he loved me and would never leave. Why did she put up with this? My H feels she was lonely and desperate and "just as sick as he was".

It's possible your H's OW knew better than to push the issue. After all, they weren't involved very long. The subject usually does come up eventually, but sometimes not for years.

Best to you.

[This message edited by catlover50 at 3:18 PM, April 25th (Friday)]

Thank you so much for your responses.

It's really a strange feeling I am having. I keep feeling like I have processed and dealt with all the other aspects of my husbands A and now we are down to these outstanding issues, and they are the ones that I seem to be unable to neatly tie up and say "right, that's that dealt with... now move on to the next thing". I keep banging my head on these same issues, and getting no further with them.

Would he take a polygraph?

catlover, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that he DID take a polygraph and this particular issues was one of the questions. He passed the polygraph. It's just that it makes no sense to me that his marriage never came up in conversation, that she never ONCE asked about it...

I've been thinking about what althea and LovelyDaffodils posted about how the OW might have been thinking, which may have made her comfortable with not asking questions about me or our marriage... I think that probably was how she was thinking - I can't imagine being in her position. I have been trying to look at it from my perspective... imagine how I would have reacted, how I would have behaved in the relationship... and that is clearly not going to work in this situation! If she had been thinking like me she wouldn't have been in such a messed up relationship in the first place!

She is someone I can't ever begin to relate to, and more than anything I feel sorry for. My WH was offering very little.

^^ I think this sums it up.. I don't understand how her mind was working, I can't begin to imagine being in a relationship where you are so under-valued at a deep level. I can't understand being willing to put yourself out there, be so very vulnerable, all while you are being offered no promises regarding the future, no commitment at all... it makes no sense to me, none..

I cannot tell from your post if your driving concern is her knowing intimate things about you or that he talked trash about you or that she is or has talked trash about you or sadly, if you just ceased to exist the minute he walked out the door for her.

I have been pondering this^^ over the weekend and have come to the conclusion that my driving concern is that my fWH may have been willing to talk trash about me. I have come to accept that, for the most part, during the A I ceased to exist in fWH's head... I don't like it, it hurts, but I can accept that, I am relatively "okay" with that. What I have difficulty with is the times that he knowingly belittled me while he was with her. Being ignored is one thing, being humiliated on purpose is more difficult for me to deal with. He did this on a number of occasions (eg when he phoned me while she was in earshot) these are the things that I am still trying to process. This is what is driving me to know what he may have talked to her about regarding me and our marriage. I have this desire to know how far under the bus he was willing to throw me while he was with her. When I posted the original post, I felt like I needed to know in order to reach acceptance.

I have been churning over this for days now. Ultimately I think it comes down to a deeper layer of acceptance. These particular issues that I am having trouble with are things that are more difficult to accept for me, mainly because I have to rely on faith that my fWH (who has proven himself to be capable of lying to me and gaslighting me..) is telling the truth, even though these issues defy (my) logic. So so hard to accept....

Even if he is still lying to me about details (which I honestly don't think he is), what does it matter? We're here now. He's not perfect, but he's doing all I can expect from him.

^^ This, as Blobette stated, is going to have to be how I reach acceptance on these issues.

Working on this!

Thanks for your support

[This message edited by ItsaClimb at 1:09 AM, April 28th (Monday)]

I too had a long list of things that would come up and like you 90% of them I had dealt with, they were just swimming around my head. Organising them helped me let go. So with the others, I brought them to WBF and there were some that had no answer.

For example, I couldn't find evidence of the NC call anywhere and he immediately looked though all his call logs and couldn't find it. I knew he had done it, I saw the txt from her immediately afterwards, so I had to accept that there was a call even though no evidence existed.

Another one was more tricky, I needed to know how many sexual encounters there were and he insisted on a number. The same number he gave me at his full confession. I felt as though he was sticking to the story even though I would have accepted a change to it based on my gut and emails I had read and pieced together. He then gave me the 'I don't remember' line. I explained that maybe it was a definition issue and that what he thought was a sexual encounter was to me physical (kissing etc.), still couldn't remember.

In the end, without a new admission from him, I accepted that my gut was to be trusted more than him and I KNOW there were more than the number he gave me. Like I should have trusted my gut in the first place rather than believing his initial story. I will trust my gut over him any day now.

Being ignored is one thing, being humiliated on purpose is more difficult for me to deal with

If your gut is telling you he talked about his marriage with her and the logic backs that up - believe that and work with that to heal. You can progress then rather than being reliant on what he tells you. Hope that helps, it helped me to have something to address rather than an unknown that would remain that forever.

Here's a thought that may or may not be helpful

What I have difficulty with is the times that he knowingly belittled me while he was with her. Being ignored is one thing, being humiliated on purpose is more difficult for me to deal with. He did this on a number of occasions (eg when he phoned me while she was in earshot) these are the things that I am still trying to process.

The very aspect of having the A is humiliating IMO. He made a fool of you whether or not he openly badmouthed you. Cheating is the ultimate act of disrespect regardless of how it goes down. Your WH may have refused to discuss you or your marriage during the A, or he may have complained all day long about what a lousy marriage he had or how unappreciated he was by his demanding wife. Either way, you were disrespected equally.

How did you get to acceptance regarding the overall disrespect shown by the act of cheating? Did you? If you didn't, maybe focusing on this will help you put this detail to rest. It could be that it is a sign of a much bigger issue that you haven't fully accepted. God knows it isn't an easy one.

I accepted that my gut was to be trusted more than him

This is what makes me disinclined to believe even the polygraph! My gut was shrieking at me at the time of the A and I ignored it and chose instead to trust him.... well we all know how that worked out for me!

I've got to the point in the last couple of days where I have realised that if I am going to stay married I have to accept this. He is not budging on his version and we have discussed it AT LENGTH the last few days. I either have to move forward even though I don't entirely believe him, or I have to accept this is a deal-breaker. Because it is clear that he is sticking to his version.

How did you get to acceptance regarding the overall disrespect shown by the act of cheating?

I only realised I had accepted this the other day when I made my long list of "things I have to accept" - afterwards I was going through each thing, one-by-one and I realised that I have accepted this. I reached acceptance I think, by realising that his cheating was not about me. I realised that it was all about him and her, I was an innocent bystander. Yes, it showed disrespect to our marriage, and disrespect to me and of course that hurts... it's taken me nearly 2 years to process that hurt, but I can accept that it happened and I was not the cause of it, or even a factor in the decision and I have accepted that he wasn't thinking about me, or the effect it would have on me, when he made the decision. So although it hurts, it doesn't feel like it was a malicious act directed at me. BUT him talking ugly about me to her... that would feel like it was malicious...

It is totally possible, totally. I have hundreds of emails between my H is his OWs, long term, short term and everything in between. He NEVER mentions his wife or family, never. They never ask, not one word. His 5-7+ year LTA partner never once asked about his relationship status and he never asked about hers. I believe that. His last 9 month long affair, the first D-Day was a colleague he never mentioned his family and she never asked. When the shit hit the fan and he sent her the NC letter and explained he had a wife and family...her reply was "I don't have those issues in my relationship, good luck with that"....slapping at me for being upset that he was fucking her.

They just don't care. They find people as broken and selfish as they are. Some WSs seek out the weak ones in the herd. Your H's OW was clearly one of the weak ones in the herd, willing to take his scraps. I completely believe it. It defies logic, but after 5 years I have read enough and seen enough of these OWs to totally believe any number of logic defying scenarios could involve them.

I hope you find some peace.

I have realised that if I am going to stay married I have to accept this. He is not budging on his version and we have discussed it AT LENGTH the last few days. I either have to move forward even though I don't entirely believe him, or I have to accept this is a deal-breaker. Because it is clear that he is sticking to his version.

Fact: You are in pain because you feel disrespected and humiliated by WH and A.

Fact: He passed the polygraph. He is adamant that his marriage never came up in conversation, that OW never ONCE asked about it.

Could your residual pain result from feeling invalidated? Does your WH discount your pain, discount your feelings of disrespect and humiliation?

I am in the camp that that thinks mentioning the BS is a huge buzz-kill in an affair. She was probably afraid of comparisons, or afraid she'd force a choice, and she'd lose. It was better if you didn't exist. So, they pretended you didn't. That is painful enough, but better than being demonized, surely?

Are you familiar with the work of Byron Katie? I am wondering if it might help you here. Your thought appears to be "He/she should have mentioned me during the affair." (I think the evidence is pretty good that they didn't, with the poly.) She would ask you to look at that thought, and see that it is causing you distress, and then to do a little bit of radical acceptance on it. The "should" is what is causing you issues - it seems incomprehensible, right? But, really, it does makes sense.

So she would ask, "is it really true that they should have mentioned you during the affair?" And finally, the turnaround -- acknowledging that they shouldn't have mentioned you, and the way you know that, is because they didn't. Tough stuff!

Itsaclimb, my husband also says that he never discussed me or our children, they asked but he refused and told them it was it wasn't up for discussion, never said he loved the ow, never texted or emailed with kisses or i miss u etc. told them up front that it wouldn't go anywhere he would never leave me. I do believe him, he compartmentalised so well, to him it was just sex. I can't imagine anything more broken and for the ow to accept that but it seems the just sex arrangement suited and shows just how broken people can be. Unfortunately i've seen the texts and emails so i do know for fact that bit is true.

ItsaClimb:

HOW can it be possible that she would put herself right out there emotionally, physically and never enquire what the long-term prospects were, when he was living in her house for half the week?? I can't accept that. I can't believe it. It is a huge problem for me. I can't let it go, I keep coming back to it.

I think most Betrayeds know how this feels-- to get stuck on some particularly vexing / humiliating data point from our Wayward's affair narrative. To your husband, this particular tidbit might seem relatively minor in the grand scheme. Yet for you, it has enormous significance, because it either suggests an almost unbelievable capacity for compartmentalization on his and AP's part, or worse-- that he's still not being full honest with you. (This is, I suspect, what's making this such a sticking point for you.)

The honest truth is, it's damn near impossible to let go of these kind of things-- particularly if they become a point of irritation for your husband. I mean, from his perspective, he took the polygraph and passed this one-- so he's probably thinking, "What else do I have to do to get you to believe me?"

I think Bionicgal is dead right, though. An affair is a collusive fantasy with two authors-- and the narrative they are scripting is of some Perfect Romance without guilt, without shame, without end. Bringing up betrayed spouses being made secret fools and victims of this Perfect Romance renders it imperfect and even "wrong".

I was amazed to read the texts and emails between my former Wayward Wife and her Affair Partner. Neither I nor the other Betrayed Spouse were mentioned by name-- over several months. We were, in a sense, unspeakable-- for the obvious reason that the invocation of either of us tainted the delusion of the Perfect Romance. (As an aside, at the height my wife's fog, she admitted she responded favorably to his talk of getting married. Yet never once did the obvious fact that two divorces would have to take place first ever get mentioned...)

So, while I would allow that your husband might be not telling you truth, I would at least suggest that it's possible that he treated you as a non-entity, and his AP followed his lead-- or vice versa.

I would say this-- your husband's tone in responding to this repeated line of inquiry is as important as the point of contention itself. He needs to understand that-- even if it's annoying to kept having to deny it-- that the proper tone of response is patient lovingkindness. You should NEVER have been put in a place where you'd have to think ANY of these trouble thoughts- let alone forgive them all.

He has the far easier job in Reconciliation-- and he needs to acknowledge in tone and word that he knows you're stuck, and he's sorry he put you here, he wants to do everything possible to help you get through this. If he hasn't fully disclosed all emails/texts, he should do that-- so you can investigate this to your heart's content. And if, after polygraph and full disclosure, you find no cause to doubt him-- you'll have any easier time letting this one go.

Thanks so much for posting that bionicgal... brilliant concept and one I will be investigating further.

An affair is a collusive fantasy with two authors-- and the narrative they are scripting is of some Perfect Romance without guilt, without shame, without end. Bringing up betrayed spouses being made secret fools and victims of this Perfect Romance renders it imperfect and even "wrong".

I have come to realise that this is true ^^

It's been such a struggle for me the last few days since I first posted, but I have really scratched at this and picked at it and finally last night I had a break-through. A couple of things contributed to my new understanding of this:

* I read all the responses to this post and I was quite staggered at the number of responses indicating that the OW are really happy to not discuss the WS's marriage, or plans for the future etc. I can see that I have been, in a way, projecting how I would have handled the situation onto the OW and then assuming that she would have behaved in that way. I can see now that in all likelihood she wouldn't have responded in that way at all.

*I spent some time recalling the fact that my fWH passed the poly (which he volunteered to go for BTW)and asking myself why I have not accepted those results?

*fWH and I spent a lot of time discussing this issue in the last few days. 2 things he said really jumped out at me: He asked me how I thought he would benefit by lying to me about this... what he would gain by that? And then he said "do you know how tempted I have been to make some stuff up and tell you I said that about you and our marriage to AP, just to satisfy you, to make this all go away... but I am not willing to do that to you. I'm not willing to lie to you again" That gave me pause for thought.

So last night I was lying in bed mulling over all of this and I finally realised that I actually DO believe that he didn't speak to OW about me our our marriage. I have finally come to believe that. And as I acknowledge that to myself I got quite panic-stricken.. I then asked myself why that was.. and it hit me..... I am scared stiff to change my thinking on this and believe what fWH has been telling me all along, because that is SO VERY reminiscent of all the gaslighting that happened during the A. I literally feel a very real sense of panic when I acknowledge that my thinking has changed and I actually believe fWH about this.

Having been lied to and gaslighted (is that even a word? ) for 8.5 years I have come to feel that the only way to protect myself is by trusting only my own gut and my own logic. And by carefully running everything fWH says to me through my super-sensitive bullshit-meter. It's a hard habit to break.

And I can see now, that when I get right down to it, this whole episode has not been so much about whether fWH said bad things about me and our marriage to OW, but rather it has been about me trusting that he is telling me the truth. I am terrified to trust him. Terrified to let him persuade me of things. Because when I allowed that to happen in the past I got hurt so badly.

Clearly there is some work to be done here!

In many ways I have learnt to trust him again. He spends many nights away for work reasons and I used to freak out about it. Now I don't, I trust him in that way. It seems to be the times when my reasoning says one thing and he says another that I have an almost PTSD-type trigger.

On the upside, the way fWH has handled this has contributed so much to the healing of our relationship. He has been so understanding and caring and just plain sad that he has brought me to a place where I am having so much difficulty with this. So that's a huge positive

itsaclimb, for what it's worth my H said that we (me and him) ever came up well. It was not really their MO, KWIM? As bionic mentioned, it would be a "buzz kill". My H said that when we (me and the boys came up), it would pretty much send things downhill so why would he break the fantasy up? This happened more and more as the A went on and actually seemed to pull him back into reality. Also, he told me so many terrible things that why not tell me this? Why lie? Like you, I already knew so much.

You were only doing what you knew to protect yourself following this traumatic event in your life. Your H seems to be proving every day that your healing is of upmost importance to him. And this is so hard to grasp and accept. It's going to take time but you are headed that way it seems.

On the upside, the way fWH has handled this has contributed so much to the healing of our relationship. He has been so understanding and caring and just plain sad that he has brought me to a place where I am having so much difficulty with this. So that's a huge positive

^^ That really is. Happy for you!

We talk a lot about words matching actions.

So maybe you and fWH can begin a series of healthy conversations about Respect (now, in the present and future; try not to dwell on past disrespect). What does Respect mean to you? What does Respect mean to him? What does it look like?

when I get right down to it, this whole episode has not been so much about whether fWH said bad things about me and our marriage to OW, but rather it has been about me trusting that he is telling me the truth. I am terrified to trust him.

I'm sure during your conversations on Respect, trust will be an important topic.

Good to see forward progress, ItsaClimb, and healthy conversations.

Itsaclimb:

I was actually thinking about something related today. I realized, that part of what is so f-ing unfair about the affair is that the BS is engaged in a competition that they are unaware of. So, the AP can fill all the holes, plug all the gaps, and make themselves to be this awesome person, while the BS is just schlubbing along in real life -- paying the bills, taking care of the kids, etc. Once the light of day is shone on it, the AP almost always lose the "competition." As my H said, there was really no competition at all. The only time she won, was when I was on the bench, unaware.

In one of the affair books we read, it said to the APs that "You both look a lot worse than you think you do." Meaning, the affair is a fantasy. If they invoke the BS too much, that is, like, reality, man. Total buzz kill. And really, most BSes look really, really good compared to the AP. My H said some of his worst moments in the affair were when he saw me clearly -- how hard I was working to make him happy, and how loving I was being; and he was being such a shit. He couldn't maintain the illusion.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 1:05 PM, April 29th (Tuesday)]

MH here...

I can't account for what occurred between my WH and the OW.

But I can tell you this.

With my EA OP, we talked about his wife exactly twice. Once at the start if the relationship when he put it all out there exactly where he was at in life and with his wife, and then again towards the end when it looked like our relationship was going to move from EA to something physical.

She was an entity we acknowledged as in "did this with the wife and kid" or "wife made dinner" etc. the same you would with any friend or acquaintance. Never demonized at all...just another person in his life. They had an arrangement where neither wanted to leave because of their kid and just accepted what it was.

Was he lying about any of it? Probably.

Did I care? Not one bit. He made me feel better. That's what I wanted to talk about, not his wife. I wanted an escape from reality, not talk about who was washing his socks.

Of course, it's nearly impossible for me to believe the same could be true in reverse for my fwh. But I think that's probably just the narcissistic part. You mean, they could have interactions where I never figured in?!??

Well duh. That's exactly what I did too.

I think at some point you will just have to accept the difference between possibility and probability. Is it possible they never talked about you? Absolutely. Is it probable? Look at the rest of the facts you have and determine from there.

After that, I think the real question you need to answer is this: does it really matter? And if yes, why? What will that tell you?