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Divorce/Separation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Follow up question from my wtf thread regarding supervised visit
BrokenDaisy
♀ Member
Member # 37063
Question  Posted: 6:13 PM, April 28th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

See previous thread for context: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=528654

I want to outline rules in an email to xwh so I have it for documentation purposes. What do you think? Good or bad idea? Worth breaking NC over? I think it is. I also thought you all will have good suggestions for rules too. Since I think it's time it's spelled out to wxh. Here's the first (very rough) draft:

Due to your inability to handle normal social situations clear rules need to be outlined for future visitations. For the safety of both myself and DS the following rules will apply:
- As was agreed in our settlement I will be present as supervisor. However there will also be a security guard with me from now on.
- I am not part of the visit so will not engage in ant conversations or small talk with you.
- I will only intervene with your visitation if you cross boundaries/act inappropriately/DS is in danger. As well as to look after his basic needs eg when his diaper needs changing.
- no social setting where the 3 of us eat together or chat. I will pack snacks for DS and myself and make sure he eats. You are welcome to eat with him at a restaurant if you want but I will not join at your table and will supervise from my own table with the security guard.
- If he is on any climbing structure I will be the one standing underneath him for "spotting" purposes. You can observe but I will handle the protection. This is due to your uncertainty in such situations and inability to act when needed which was proven by DS falling off a high structure to the ground under your observation with previous visit.
- In the unfortunate event of DS getting hurt during visitation I will do the care-taking. Again due to your propensity for uncertainty and panic in such situations. I know how to handle emergencies and can stay calm and collected. DS is also more secure and familiar with my care-taking and comfort abilities.
- A distance of at least 2m will be maintained between us at all times
- If either DS or I require the bathroom he will accompany me to it.
- We will continue to only meet in public spaces.

I feel it is important to outline the rules again due to concerning events during the previous visitations. Particular concern is your declaration of wanting to hurt us due to your own pain as well as your inappropriate sexual thoughts/urges/fantasies about us. This is not to alienate you from DS or intervene with your right to supervised visitation. It's purely for our safety while you do see him.

[This message edited by BrokenDaisy at 6:15 PM, April 28th (Monday)]


Me BxW, him SA NPD WxH
1 wonderful toddler - sole legal custody to me and supervised visitation to xwh.
DDay 01/2012
10/2013 Divorced!!

Posts: 242 | Registered: Oct 2012
Gemini71
♀ Member
Member # 40115
Default  Posted: 6:29 PM, April 28th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Looks good to me. You tone is factual without downplaying your concerns.

Good luck! Hopefully he won't go ape shit when he gets this.


Edited to correct stupid typos.

Two steps forward and one step backwards, is still progress.


Posts: 1621 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Illinois, USA
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 2:12 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What you wrote is quite emotive and mentions your own feelings quite a lot. In case it ever gets read in a court, how about making it more impersonal & factual, focusing on DS, more like?:

On previous visitations the following events have happened:
1. On [date] [event] happened
2. On [date] [event] happened
3. On [date] [event] happened
4. On [date] [event] happened

These have led myself and DS to feel unsafe. As a result, DS and I need the following to be in place to ensure visitation happens safely:

1. As was agreed in our settlement I will be present as supervisor. Due to [event] there will also be a security guard or other third party present for my protection
2. The visitation is with DS. Do not engage in any conversations or small talk with me. There is no need for me to eat a meal with you. I will ensure that DS has snacks available during visitation. You are welcome to eat with him at a restaurant if you wish, but I will not join at your table and will continue to supervise the visit from my own table with the security guard/third party
3. My role is to intervene if you act inappropriately with DS, or if I feel that DS is in danger, and also to look after DS basic needs eg when his diaper needs changing.
4. Due to [event] If DS is on any climbing structure or similar, I will be the one standing underneath him for "spotting" purposes.
5. Due to [event] you are to remain two arms lengths away from me at all times.
6. Due to this being a supervised visitation, if I need to leave the room, play area, etc, for any reason (such as bathroom breaks), DS will need to come with me.
7. The supervised visitation will continue to happen solely in public places.
8. In the event of an emergency I will resume the primary care-giving role


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - Susp EA 'The Baker'
COW - EA/PA 'Fat Bottomed Girl'
COW - Susp EA 'MiniMe'

Posts: 824 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
BrokenDaisy
♀ Member
Member # 37063
Default  Posted: 2:21 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you softcentre that helps a lot!


Me BxW, him SA NPD WxH
1 wonderful toddler - sole legal custody to me and supervised visitation to xwh.
DDay 01/2012
10/2013 Divorced!!

Posts: 242 | Registered: Oct 2012
stronger08
♂ Member
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 4:27 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Seems to me the guy is a danger. I honestly think you might be better served if you allowed the courts to supervise his visits. Why are you getting so personally involved in this ? Not a bash, just trying to see your POV.


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5584 | Registered: Nov 2007
Holly-Isis
♀ Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 5:53 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My only change, because the above were good suggestions, is take out the "be sure he eats".

AFAIK, eating isn't a part of your WXH's perversions. He can supervise eating, otherwise it looks like you're truly trying to control every aspect of his relationship with your son.

You guys meet infrequently for short periods of time. If your DS doesn't eat the snacks you pack on these occasions or eats other than what you would select for him, he'll be ok. Based on your previous description, your DS will make it clear he's hungry. The ego kibbles your WXH tried to get...you can intervene if it leads to a meltdown or happens to frequently.

Basically, you want to appear to the court as though your protecting you DS from sexual incidents rather than trying to control the entire father/son dynamic.


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

Posts: 11097 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Just a fool in limbo
wonderpets
♂ Member
Member # 35901
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How is your order written? How many of those rules can you enforce?

Posts: 202 | Registered: Jun 2012
BrokenDaisy
♀ Member
Member # 37063
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Seems to me the guy is a danger. I honestly think you might be better served if you allowed the courts to supervise his visits. Why are you getting so personally involved in this ? Not a bash, just trying to see your POV
.
Yes he is a danger and that is precisely why I don't trust anyone else to look after my son. He is a danger and very charming and has fooled many people. I won't risk him fooling the supervisor and getting access to my DS. However the biggest reason is to be there for my very young son. I won't leave him with his dangerous father AND a stranger. It would be traumatic for him. I don't enjoy these visits or being "personally involved" but I am and I won't abandon my son. I addressed this in my previous thread too:

I just can't let myself leave my son with a stranger and his fucked up dad without any support or familiarity. I can't do it. He is still very young and does not like unfamiliar social situations or people. I also don't trust anyone else to completely grasp the dangers of my xwh. He is incredibly charming and disarming, he knows how to be liked and he has fooled many people. I just can't take that chance. I can't. Even when I do spill the beans on xwh people don't easily grasp the full extent or generally think I'm a bitter ex wife. I only trust myself to be there for my son and more importantly my son feels safe and secure with me there. I can't leave him alone with someone so dangerous even if there is a very good appointed guardian, he wouldn't know the guardian. And what if he needs a diaper change? Who would do it? Wouldn't want xwh or a stranger doing it.

My only change, because the above were good suggestions, is take out the "be sure he eats".
AFAIK, eating isn't a part of your WXH's perversions. He can supervise eating, otherwise it looks like you're truly trying to control every aspect of his relationship with your son.

You guys meet infrequently for short periods of time. If your DS doesn't eat the snacks you pack on these occasions or eats other than what you would select for him, he'll be ok. Based on your previous description, your DS will make it clear he's hungry. The ego kibbles your WXH tried to get...you can intervene if it leads to a meltdown or happens to frequently.

Basically, you want to appear to the court as though your protecting you DS from sexual incidents rather than trying to control the entire father/son dynamic.

Very good points. The only reason I put that in is because in the very early days before I knew about the pedophilia and other issues and we were still in in-house separation. There was a day that I was horribly sick and xwh looked after DS. (Or was supposed to. He did a horrible job of it) I fell asleep. I was woken up by DS's hunger screams, xwh didn't feed DS at all. So it's just about making sure there is food available but I get your points and will pack snacks for in case but won't say anything unless I see wxh doesn't think of feeding him. I'll take it out of the list.

Just for the record. I'm not trying to come between a father and son. I'm forced to protect my child. Xwh literally does not care about DS. I'm doing my best to protect my son, unfortunately the rule that all children need both parents don't always apply. I exposed son for 17months to a monster because I desperately tried to give him a relationship with his father. I learned the very hard way how incapable and twisted xwh is as a father. I will try and make up for it for rest of my life. It was very hard for me because I also believe my son deserves a father. I'm not bitter. I'm not doing this as revenge towards xwh. I have been forced to defend my son. Most couldn't even imagine half the things xwh has done. He has nothing to offer DS other than dysfunction, heartache and sickness. I am fully aware how I am judged for this and how many think I am wrong. However none of them have lived this. DS already had issues born from xwh handling of him even at such a young age. I'm trying to negate the negative effects as much as I can. To make up for choosing such an awful biological father for him.

Sorry this is a very emotional subject for me. I wrestled with it a lot. I still do. It's an impossible situation and I'm doing the best I can with the info I have available.

I am going to consult an attorney again as well.


Me BxW, him SA NPD WxH
1 wonderful toddler - sole legal custody to me and supervised visitation to xwh.
DDay 01/2012
10/2013 Divorced!!

Posts: 242 | Registered: Oct 2012
nowiknow23
♀ Guide
Member # 33226
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((BrokenDaisy))))) I think of you and your DS all the time. Sending you strength. You're a good mom, honey. It's obvious you have your son's best interests at heart. I just wish you didn't have an actual monster in your lives.


You can call me NIK

"Sometimes it takes a good fall to know where you really stand."
-Hayley Williams


Posts: 24720 | Registered: Aug 2011
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BrokenDaisy, I'm sorry if you have addressed this and I missed it, but why can't these Supervised Visitations happen at a facility designed for them?

The county I am in has a building where these take place. There are toys, county-appointed supervisors and I believe interactions are recorded if requested.

It would be safer for everyone this way, with "official" documentation of any issues.

I also suspect that the number of visits would decline or cease entirely, since they wouldn't be opportunities for tomfoolery any longer.


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 740 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
BrokenDaisy
♀ Member
Member # 37063
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh wow NIK thank you. I'm such a lurker I didn't think anyone would really remember or recognize me here. Thank you for your very kind words. I appreciate them. I constantly question myself, it is hard to always know the right course but I'm doing the best I can. Thank you for the validation. I needed it and appreciate it.

Landabear I don't know if those are available in our country? Sounds good to me as long as I can also be within eyeshot of DS (for him to feel secure with someone familiar closeby. I don't want him to be surrounded by just strangers and xwh). Something else to ask my new lawyer (who I am still looking for. Trying to find a good family lawyer!) Thank you for mentioning it.

The other good suggestions was the bikers one from my previous thread and I looked into that. Unfortunately no such organization here. I loved that idea!


Me BxW, him SA NPD WxH
1 wonderful toddler - sole legal custody to me and supervised visitation to xwh.
DDay 01/2012
10/2013 Divorced!!

Posts: 242 | Registered: Oct 2012
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Google "county name state supervised visitation" and whatever information there is for your county should pop up.

I just tried it with my county, knowing the service is available, and got tons of hits.

The other option is call the county and ask - they will know what you are talking about. If supervised visitation is ordered in your decree, you shouldn't even need a lawyer to get the visits moved. They (the visitation center) will walk you through it.

Another option, if you can't seem to get anywhere calling the county: call a local women and children's shelter. They'll have the info, and maybe even a contact.


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 740 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
BrokenDaisy
♀ Member
Member # 37063
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not in a county, I'm not in the States. I'm in a third world country but I will definitely find out about it. A quick Google search didn't show any such options in my country. I don't trust the system much but if I have to resort to it I will.

All the social workers I spoke with before said the same to me: I really can't protect my son much legally in our country to prevent harm even with the overwhelming evidence of xwh's perversions and addictions and harmful behaviours. Only when he has actually physically assaulted DS will I have some options and even then they say the system fails the children. Parental rights are seen as more important than children rights and most judges just immediately assume the parents are exaggerating and acting vengeful. When you try to protect your child. The example my social worker gave me was of a father who raped his young teen daughter and inpregnated her. He spent only a few years in jail and when he was released she couldn't even get a restraining order because "he served his time". It's really a very powerless feeling. I was incredibly fortunate to get supervised visitation and it is only because I gave in to so much for xwh (financially) so that he agreed to it. I was strongly advised the best approach is to get him to agree to terms which I did at great cost but the only important thing to me was DS safety so I gave other things up gladly in the settlement to gain all legal rights to DS and supervised visitation. It's very complicated situation and the divorce took over a year to finalize because of it. Xwh really was not interested in having rights to DS, just in material things, I didn't even have to make suggestions he came with what he wanted and said I can take DS if I give it to him. At the time I wasn't even aware of the pedophelia yet. I have moved cities and I am looking at getting legal counsel again and to just reassess our options and limitations. The system hasn't been very good so far and thus I rely more on my own ability to protect my son because I know what wxh is capable off and I am able to stay neutral and non-confrontational in his presence (19monthd of in house seperation made me a pro at that)

My IC also suggested a woman shelter organization. I will still get on that too. Up until the last visit I was okay with doing the supervision solely but with new info it's clear it's not safe. I thought a public setting and strong boundaries was protection enough. I was wrong. Luckily I have lots of time before the next one to figure it all out.

Thank you! Hope this all makes sense. I struggle a lot to talk about this and explain it all and worry about giving too much info and being recognizable in searches.


Me BxW, him SA NPD WxH
1 wonderful toddler - sole legal custody to me and supervised visitation to xwh.
DDay 01/2012
10/2013 Divorced!!

Posts: 242 | Registered: Oct 2012
Skan
♀ Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, April 29th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((hugs))) It's obvious that you're doing the very best that you can to protect your son under some incredibly hard circumstances. I'm keeping the two of you in my prayers.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4671 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
Topic Posts: 14

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