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I Can Relate Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 34
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:12 PM, June 11th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ostrich....our stories have so many similarities....thanks for sharing....living the existence you live is so so hard...and i know this first hand....i am now looking forward to my NEW beginning...

hrtbrkn: hon.....believe nothing he says and everything he does.....many and i mean many ws will say everything you want to hear to basically save their own asses....my ws tried it all, including that there was no physical with #1 or #2.....well there was plenty of physical...way too many to count....bottom line is you need to remember that he has been lying to you, to your face, looking you in the eye for years.....so he is an accoomplished liar.....i hope his words are full with action for your sake....you are still quite new....and so is he...and he is total cover his ass mode...


the timeline.....there is no possible way to remember every single contact if its gone on for mulitple years...and for some of us years and years and years....however, you can find out all the logistics...how often, where, what time of the day, excuses used....and how was it pulled off...

the remorseful ws will try his/her darndest to put it together as best as possible but also keep in mind that the human ego goes into self protect mode....and they will try to downplay as much as possible and probably whitewash the story and prob even add lies...all the while telling themselves that they are protecting you from the hurtful information...after all what does it matter, all that matters is the its over and they do not need to hurt you .....think about in simple terms...you have an obese person asking you if whatever (s)he is wearing makes them look fat...the truth is everything make them look fat just because they are....does anyone tell them that...HELL NO...you tell them things like, oh that one complements you better then the other one...or it makes you look thinner...never ever does anyone say yes it makes you look fat....we may even say that it just doesn't look good....but never that they look fat...well the ws does this with every hurtful truth....they do not want to hurt your feelings..especially since it them that caused it....they also want to cover their asses and make themselves look better if possible...downplaying as much as possible...

and the excuse of memory...remembering things like the color of underwear or each and every time is not an excuse...most of us could not remember shit like the...but the ws will come up with some doozies...my favorite one from my ws was "i honestly do not remember if i fucked her"....seriously...you cannot remember whether or not you stuck your dick in her pussy...methinks thats a big fat lie....i KNEW it was a big fat lie....


the bestme:....i hope your questioning goes well....honestly tho i think you already know....and im thinkin you hope you are wrong...and i say this because it was what i kept hopin for in my own sich.....hence on my screen name..., i knew but i wanted my miracle...i wanted to somehow save my marriage, i wanted HIM to save our marriage...


ok...thats it for me...i forgot everything else i read....i think i need to go to bed now...

(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

and i keep on steppin!!!


Posts: 6046 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Ostrich80
Member
Member # 34827
Default  Posted: 11:42 PM, June 11th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read your story IWM) I stopped looking too. Well I was kind of forced to stop because he got a new iPhone and now I can't see his daily shenanigans..Sometimes I really feel the urge but then I tell myself, why? I was a bit obsessed about looking several times a day so maybe its better I don't see.
I wish I could crawl in his brain for one day to get answers to my many questions. I have gotten nothing from him except what I've found myself where he couldn't deny. So many hours of my time I will never get back playing detective


BS..me
WS..him
Been with him over half my life
4kid
DD1 10-01-09 DD2 02-12-12 discovered it never ended
OW..nothing special. Just your average skank
Status..#$%@????

Posts: 5066 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: midwest
catatonic
Member
Member # 40758
Default  Posted: 1:15 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First time posting in this forum. Though I follow threads. Initially after DD, I would never imagine that any marriage could survive a LTA. And I am amazed at the knowledge and strength that I see on this thread.
I am currently really having a difficult time accepting, understanding WH LTA ( approx. 4 years, and I'm sure EA prior). And I am struggling in that I feel this may be the deal breaker for me. We have been working hard, In IC and MC. WH answers all questions, and really wants to .R We are 10months out. I just feel that everything was so calculated, secret. And WH coming home every night slipping into the role of father, husband. I am nauseated at the years they spent together, the emotions, the sex, the familiarity.
Of course the ever so popular.."I always loved you", " It was just sex". How do you begin to make sense of this? And how do you get past all the Holidays, Special days? And do you every know if WH did truly want to be with you, or did that other relationship just run its course, and now I'm special again.
Please share your thoughts.

Posts: 113 | Registered: Sep 2013
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 7:35 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do you begin to make sense of this? And how do you get past all the Holidays, Special days?

For several months after DDay I spent a lot of time trying to understand and make sense of my WW decision making process. The problem with this that I eventually came to was that there was no way I could even try to put myself in her shoes and logic my way through what she did. I would never make the choices she made and because of that I am unable to fully understand them.

Their decision making is flawed because they are broken on some level. What I have done is protect myself going forward rather then spend more time trying to understand how it happened in an effort to prevent it from happening again.

The holidays and special days suck, there is not much to do to get past this early on. They get better with time as the years pass by.

[This message edited by ReunitePangea at 7:36 AM, June 12th (Thursday)]


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 485 | Registered: Nov 2012
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:37 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I went through FWW's phone last night.

Text to her older DD saying she thought the wedding went well, but that Atsenaotie was an Ass. (no idea what she means by this, I enjoyed the wedding more than I expected, especially considering her xH, one AP, DD and her husband who hate me, and people who knew of A's and heard her pre-dday stories of what an awful H I was were there and FWW was spending time with each of them)

Text to her friend explaining she does not have a newer car because her "cheapskate" husband will not buy one. (you may recall she has been unemployed 2 of the last four years, we have had a child in college during this time)

Another text to fiend expressing she wished she could buy her house that is for sale because Atsenaotie has been gone (I was at wedding and conferences for 2 weeks) and she has enjoyed it.

Maybe just as telling, texts I had sent the last two weeks commending her on an accomplishment at work, asking if she liked a dress I sent a photo of from a store, all went unanswered while I got repeated texts asking if I couldn't change my flight to arrive near a time she was dropping a friend off at the airport earlier in the day. The amount of online and in person contact and providing pick-up and drop-off for this female friend is very similar to her behavior with OM1.

The lack of physical contact and activities together, the eruptions if I bring up a topic that she is defensive or sensitive about would be easier to take if I thought she loved me and had my back. When I read that she thinks I behave as an ass, act as a cheapskate, and she has not confronted me with these perceptions, I just do not see the point.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4132 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:48 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

catatonic,

RP response is very well stated, so I will not repeat that part.

As for truly wanting to be with you, I think you will see this over time, but it could take a couple of years. Is he working on his issues in IC to understand what enabled him to pursue the A, and then learning and practicing new behaviors to replace those old maladapted behaviors? Has he learned your love language, and can you see a sustained, new habit of expressing love for you in your language? Has he learned not to be conflict avoidant (you too), and are you both able to express and resolve conflict in healthy ways and then move forward with deeper intimacy? Can he explain how is love for you now is different than his love for you when he was willing to cheat on you? Has he corrected any “false tales” he spread about you to others in his efforts to justify his A in his mind prior to his dday?

When you can answer yes to all of most of these statements, you will know that your fWH truly wants to be with you in the present time. You do not want to settle for “special again”, because when you were special before he felt compelled to cheat on you to meet his needs. You want to see sustained evidence of a person who has changed behaviors and perceptions, is not afraid of intimate communication and sharing emotional intimacy.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4132 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
krsplat
♀ Member
Member # 43242
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For several months after DDay I spent a lot of time trying to understand and make sense of my WW decision making process. The problem with this that I eventually came to was that there was no way I could even try to put myself in her shoes and logic my way through what she did. I would never make the choices she made and because of that I am unable to fully understand them.

Their decision making is flawed because they are broken on some level. What I have done is protect myself going forward rather then spend more time trying to understand how it happened in an effort to prevent it from happening again.

I am coming to the conclusion that LTA betrayers are more broken than most other WSs. Their ability to compartmentalize, living two lives without having them accidentally bleed into each other, is mindbending. Their ability to lie without conscience -- every single day for YEARS! -- is breathtaking. These are some seriously f*ed-up people.

I'm stuck on this right now. If someone has a brief A, you can say, "They lied. They betrayed me. They did wrong." Discrete, singlular actions. But my WH has been at this so long that I now feel he IS a liar, he IS a betrayer, he IS wrong. Maybe it's not bad behavior, it's bad character, bad values and a bad person. Again, just plain f*ed up.

Do I really want to live with that long term? Even if he does get himself together and do every thing I could want, he's still the same kind of broken that landed us here in the first place.


Me & WH: 48, married 22 years, 4 kids
DDay: 3/5/14, 7 yr LTA plus multiple ONS
Status: Back on the coaster. Who knows?

Posts: 349 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Virginia
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

krsplat,

I am coming to the conclusion that LTA betrayers are more broken than most other WSs.

In general, I believe this. I think there can be with a shorter length A the situation where a person slides down the slippery slope, or makes a drug/alcohol influenced bad choice and finds themselves over their head. In such a situation, some focused work on addiction and/or boundaries may be enough to set them forward on the straight and narrow. With the LTA I find it often appears that maladapted behaviors from childhood and/or personality issues fuel and sustain the relationship and compartmentalizing as you describe. I could envision myself having a brief, short term A under the influence of alcohol or is I allowed my boundaries to drop. I can never see me sustaining a LTA.


Maybe it's not bad behavior, it's bad character, bad values and a bad person.

In my situation I believe that much of what enabled FWW’s affairs, and continues to interfere with any significant emotional intimacy in our relationship are behaviors and perceptions that she learned in response to her childhood life. She had an abusive and alcoholic mother, and a father who was much more focused on his work than his family. FWW is not a bad person, she just relates to life as a scared child trying to protect herself instead of a mature adult. She has little internal guidance, and instead behaves and perceives based on her environment and what she believes that she sees around herself; eg: if she feels bad it is because someone makes her feel bad, if someone does something that injures her it is because that person does not like her, if she feels insecure she perceives the cause as other people judging her. Throw in some borderline personality traits and she really leads a conflicted and turmoil filled life. She is not a bad person, she does not have bad values, but she is impulsive, emotionally mercurial, and uncertain about her self.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4132 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am coming to the conclusion that LTA betrayers are more broken than most other WSs.

While this may be the case more often than not. I think that BS of LTA's may have more issues that they have to deal with personnally than the typical BS dealing with an A. I am trying to say that carefully as I don't think it means we are any way at fault. However, at some point in time, I think we need to ask ourselves what it was about us that allowed ourselves to live in the situations even though we may have had no idea it was occurring for as long as we did.

In my case, I know I put my WW way to high up on a pedestal and was very content thinking everything was perfect. For example, I have never bought a new car for myself. I let my wife buy new cars for herself and then to let her get a new car sooner I would take her old one. It would mean that I would still have a decent vehicle but it was never what I would have picked out. Recently I bought a brand new vehicle for myself - my first new vehicle ever and one that I always wanted. I am working on standing up for myself more and more and it feels good.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 485 | Registered: Nov 2012
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that BS of LTA's may have more issues that they have to deal with personnally than the typical BS dealing with an A.

At the risk of sounding like the Chair of the RP FanClub, I agree with this also. I know that in my sich I was much too quick to take responsibility for OPPs (Other Peoples Problems). I was conflict avoidant. I thought that if I could be a perfect, or near perfect, person than people would like or even love me. These issues affected not just my relationship with FWW, but all of my relationships with people, coworkers, family, etc.

I had a head-start working on my stuff when I started IC about 2 years before dday when I suspected an A, was talked out of it and was told by FWW that I was "broken". After dday, I did additional IC and bought and read more books from Amazon than I care to recall. I think I have a handle on some of my relationship issues now, and I think this is reflected in the excellent professional success I have had the last few years.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4132 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((ats)))) I am so sorry. You have made huge efforts in trying to reconcile with your WW. I feel she takes you for granted and doesn't appreciate one. single. thing. you have done for her or accepted from her.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9710 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

At the risk of sounding like the Chair of the RP FanClub

ATS, I have always been a big fan in your fan club. I just wish your WW was the chair of the ATS fan club. I agree with sister that she is taking you for granted and you deserve so much better.

I was much too quick to take responsibility for OPPs (Other Peoples Problems). I was conflict avoidant. I thought that if I could be a perfect, or near perfect, person than people would like or even love me.

That described me pretty well as well.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 485 | Registered: Nov 2012
Ostrich80
Member
Member # 34827
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that BS of LTA's may have more issues that they have to deal with personnally than the typical BS dealing with an A

I agree with this. I'm still amazed at my ws double life. I mean really, how do you keep your lives from colliding. I'm constantly calling my kids by the one of the other kids names, how do they keep from getting us mixed up. It must be exhausting. I feel like every day since 2009 has been a big fat lie. It's intentional, not a mistake, but on purpose, the lies


BS..me
WS..him
Been with him over half my life
4kid
DD1 10-01-09 DD2 02-12-12 discovered it never ended
OW..nothing special. Just your average skank
Status..#$%@????

Posts: 5066 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: midwest
TheBestMe
♀ Member
Member # 39476
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with the comment that for some BS of an LTA, we have our own issues. I know I do and did pre-A. Looking back, I gave my H permission to leave the M. He had crossed boundaries with another woman that he'd met at work. My feelings about that situation had not been reconciled. I was angry at my H and resented him for hurting me. These emotions led me to distance myself even more than I naturally did.

But, even through all my H's character flaws, the thought of having an A never entered my mind.

I am coming to the conclusion that LTA betrayers are more broken than most other WSs. Their ability to compartmentalize, living two lives without having them accidentally bleed into each other, is mindbending. Their ability to lie without conscience -- every single day for YEARS! -- is breathtaking. These are some seriously f*ed-up people
.

Years of lies; to the spouse, to the AP and to themselves. My H talked badly about me as a way to justify his choices. There is no way that I could do the things that he did and live with myself.

My mind keeps replaying words from the M&M song "I'm friend's with the monster that's under my bed."


ME Doing Better
WH Trying As Best He Can
Married 23 years
Status: Working towards friendship
D Day #1 - 2007 My gut told me
D Day #2 - 2010 His D told me
D Day #3 - 1/11/2013 OW Confirmed
LTA 7 years

Both feet pointed forward; positive


Posts: 434 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Inner Peace
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In my experience with my FWH, I don't feel he is more broken than the "average" WS or short term WS. Sure, he has some FoO issues. Conflict avoidant extraordinaire. I could easily use about fifteen "self" words I could use to describe FWH's behaviour, i.e. self-absorbed, self-serving, self-obsessed etc., etc., it all boils down to the overriding behaviour: selfishness.

What enabled him to continue to do this was his ability to compartmentalize. His affair had absolutely nothing to do with our marriage, in his mind's compartments. I was not discussed. I did not exist. Love and a future was not discussed with OW. At least not on FWH's part. OW later on (surprise) in the LTA decided MisterSister was the "love of its life". It was strictly FWB's NSA sex for FWH. When I describe OW as a cumdumpster I am not being facetious. FWH literally treated OW as such. I mean he liked it, as a friend, and was attracted enough to fuck it, but he totally used it.

Many LTA's are able to last so long because of the lack of emotional attachment. When OW started with the "love" crap, FWH realized he had to end it. Of course, he felt he had to wean OW off of his magnificent wiener, otherwise the poor thing would just lose its shit. Which it did anyway, so his long withdrawal didn't work out so good for him.

TheBestMe, I can relate to you in the way you built walls and held onto resentments. Because of FWH's overall selfish behaviour I built up walls to protect myself. I held onto resentments because the issues were never solved. If I brought up an issue at a "good time", when we were not fighting and just having a reasonable conversation, it would instantly devolve into him becoming defensive and attacking me for being such an awful wife.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:01 PM, June 12th (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9710 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
catatonic
Member
Member # 40758
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(Atsonaotic) yes my WH has been working very hard, and we are both learning each other's love language. And it feels good. But I am still trying to understand how some of those maladaptive behaviors ceased upon DDay, which to me shows he knew my needs, but didn't care.
Such as, a very simple thing, we have a new home with a long gravel driveway. We have 5 kiddos and a dog. The silt that was constantly being dragged in our home was overwhelming. I shared how this was exhausting to keep up during inclement weather. WH kept putting paving off due to $. ( though he was helping ow with $) I understood we had other bills. Though one complaint WH had was, I devoted all my time to kids and home. Well, 2 days after DDay I had a beautiful paved driveway. And happy kids on their bikes. But before I was a nagging wife.
So some he has done work in IC, reading. And many more he just neglected on purpose. I see how I'm happier now because of the changes, but the affects of the LTA are painful still.
And yes " reunitepangea" I see my flaws( and sure I will discover more) conflict avoider, working hard to make things oerfect( thus enabling time for WH to have A), put my needs last. But, if I would start reading a diet, health book, I would also say, " oh, I don't eat right, I don't exercise properly, I never have 5 servings of fruit, ect". So maybe we beat ourselves up too much. Our kindness allowed WS to take advantage.
Thank you for the responses. I am really struggling with all of this and wondering if I can accept this.

Posts: 113 | Registered: Sep 2013
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Strongly recommended AD for da tribe...

Posts: 2677 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

catatonic... A quality man always takes care of things around the house that are is responsibilities. Then, his wife will not nag. He is trying to change. A good sign..

conflict avoider

I have no doubt this is a behavoir very common in those of us who had spouses involved in a LTA. That is a great thing to change about YOU.

How you conflict is so important to stay most open and most intimate. There are different methods and ways to change how you conflict.. a good subject to read and discover.

Example about me.. I am out of town one day and my W calls and says she is going to a Pacer game with her boss, the OM. My "gut feeling" was screaming at me. But so many time before she got so defensive when I started asking questions. "I want a life too.." "it is only a game" "Stop being jeoulous".. etc.. So, I avoided conflict and said.. OK. defending my own brain behind the promise of an "I do".. People are people.

A man says.. I don't date any woman and neither is any W of mine. If I went to a game with a women you wouldn't like it and I don't either. We need to really examine our discuss our relationship if you need quality time with your boss. It is my hope you can make a choice to respect me as I will you. When I get home, do you want to go to a game with me?"

Then, no argue, no debate.. just listen.. And if they go.. YOU LAY DOWN consequences and more pressure.

- Make your point.
- Put them in your mind or you in thier mind
- Say what you want.
- Reset to safety

You protect yourself! It takes practice and a few tries to ignore your fear and try it..

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:02 PM, June 12th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2677 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:32 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

atsenaotie

Husbands and wives should love each other.. Love has no records of wrongs true.. but this is today.

Your W is telling you what she wants. Listen to her...

She wants things NO man can give her.. unless she first loves.. a choice, a decision.


Posts: 2677 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, June 12th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn: You have often posted that if you were more "quality" in the past that your WW would not have had a LTA. Do you mean that that it would not have been a LONG term affair? That you would have recognized the symptoms of the A earlier and confronted and tried to R before it became a LTA?

Please, someone tell me they NEVER had any "gut feeling" during the LTA time frame.

I post being most quality.. why? Nobody was perfect.. So look at those things and fix yourself first. When you do change something.. You will feel real good about Yourself. It is an Accomplishment.

My W would likely not have risk losing me as I am today.. you have to know all bad behavoirs first, and not do them yourself...Then, I choose to meet all her needs... with purpose..
But other good qualities is to address every bad behavoir.. If all addressed, she would have changed for me.. if not, she just doesn't want to love me... but it must be done in a safe loving open way.. And if she continued that bad behavior, I would place so much pressure on her to a point she would have left.. or I would have finally given her an ultimatum.. if she choosed not to behave, her choice, not mine, she choosed to leave the M, not me. I just execute her decision. Spouses want to meet each other needs. And if you happen to choose a spouse who does not want to meet your needs. Not much you can do but communicate and add pressures. If they don't change, the don't want to change. Their choice, not ours. We are empowered to do this.. we ignore our fears... we make wise decision becasue we love ourselves..

And behavoirs are many.. Sex I would say is number one issues for the typical M. It should be viewed as a gift of marriage.. By both.. And the typical man needs it.. and in different ways, he pursues, and yes is pursued.

And when it stops.. the M has a problem that needs to be addressed. When it is too much.. the marriage has a problem.. when you bring in a third party.. problem..


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