I still lurk often and have been reminiscing quite a bit about the early days post dday.
I think of you all so often with so much love.
One day I know we will meet face to face.
I don't know when or where but I know it will happen.
In my house FWH continues to do the minimum. The children's health has deteriorated and my boss is a lazy, incompetent, bully, fuckwit who is giving me a very hard time. But I am OK. I really am.
I stay because I need to. For the children.
For the newbies. BIG HUGS. Do what you need to do to survive. Don't let anyone ever tell you what you SHOULD do. Do what works for you.
If I had followed the "wise" advice of some on here I would have left years ago.. ...But in my case I stayed for the kids. I am so glad I did. Sometimes going the hard road is what will bring you peace in the end.
My life is far from ideal but I am so happy I made the choices I did. I work hard, I tolerate FWH and my boss but I sleep well at night knowing I am a woman of integrity.
When I do meet my maker I will be proud of the choices I made.
One of the comments someone made-about how the BS must have known something....even if it was on a gut level? well....like you I did not have a clue that my husband was carrying on a 5 yr LTA!
I knew he was depressed and grouchy and unhappy and difficult to live with but I never for a minute guessed that those characteristics indicated an affair.
so maybe some BS knew something and chose to ignore the gut feeling? That wasn't me
I feel these kinds of comments are very cruel. So many of us had no idea. In a way this type of comment suggests that the BS is at fault: "Dumb bitch/bastard should have seen what was going on under his/her nose". These comments really piss me off. They should piss us all off!!!
Thanks for your comment NJ. As`always your words of wisdom are so helpful to everyone.
To my old friends from LTA who continue to suffer in myriad ways, I am so sorry. My arms are reaching for you from down under.
Love to all
[This message edited by Laura28 at 3:02 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]
During his A, I did notice that he was more and more emotionally distant, and that I felt disregarded and unimportant to him, to the point where it was so unlike him that I dragged him to the doctor and got brain scans and testing for strokes, memory loss and whatever tests/evaluations they could do for dementia and Alzheimers.
Little did I know there was a disconnect from me because he was having all of his fantasies met by a real live prostitute who he thought was his friend and he was helping her out by giving her money (and she thanked him so prettily with sex!)--she was so pretty, younger, blonde, fake boobs, slender, "waxed" so he could face plant himself *there* and she gave him lap dances and did strip teases, and oh-so-yummy sexual positions just for him! (so very special)
Here are the red flags that he explained away:
1. I forget what year this was (WH retired in 2008, and this boner pill discovery was before that), but I was looking for something which I knew he kept in his dresser drawer. In the drawer, I found his boner pills. There weren't viagra, and I had to look them up on the internet to find out they were boner pills--I thought they might be blood pressure pills.
Since we weren't having sex (for decades!!), and I found out they were boner pills, I immediately called my sister, and I was kinda panicking. She calmed me down and said he's probably using them so he can get himself off, since she knew he had ED and PE. She asked if he was acting weird, of if there was anything suspicious going on. I said no, he goes to work, he goes bowling and since I know the bowling buddies, they would have mentioned something if he was missing the games, and he goes to movies. He comes home when he is supposed to. I never did ask him about the pills.
2. I went out to the Man Cave and walked in and he jumped when I went in --he didn't hear me coming-- and slammed his flip phone shut. I asked who were you talking to? He said someone from the bowling league about the game coming up. I believe that because there was nothing to NOT believe. He was a team captain and he talked with the team and made calls etc. I should have been more suspicious of the time, because it was after 10:00 PM, but I also knew he and the team --and his parasite succubus bad penny friend from the old neighborhood-- made calls in the late evening.
3. He went to movies 2 or 3 times a month (this was his excuse so he could fuck the slunt--movies I never wanted to see) and I usually would ask him about the previews. For one of the movies he went to see, I asked him about the previews and he said it didn't have any previews. I said that's really weird because they always have previews to get you in to see another movie. He said yeah, it was weird, but it didn't have previews.
4. He went to see the movie "Lincoln" which was a cover, I know now. I asked him how was Sally Field in her role and he gave some lame, half-assed answer that I thought was a typical man, a guy who watches the movie but is not paying too much attention to an older female actress who is playing Mrs. Lincoln.
5. One time I was helping him do something on his phone, maybe showing him how to set an alarm or something, and I went through his Contacts and saw "Mich"--I know WH is a poor speller, so I thought it might be his spelling for Michael. I asked him Who's Mich? He said oh, that's someone who subs for us on the league some times. I never thought anything more of it. I believed him.
It's difficult to get over my being such a gullible fool, and curiously, I wonder if I'm the oldest BW on SI...
The LTA may be a deal breaker for me even though WH is doing what he can to show his remorse and make amends. Some people may just be too broken to stay with, and some hurts may be just too big to swallow.
you were no fool.....there are way too many of us here....and we simply believed in our spouses...believed in the vows we took....believed that any issues we had would be worked out within the marriage...
Gosh, I just vented some more, didn't I?
Oh, Laura 28, I just posted then saw your post, and came back on to say HI!!!!
So many of us had no idea. In a way this type of comment suggests that the BS is at fault: "Dumb bitch/bastard should have seen what was going on under his/her nose". These comments really piss me off. They should piss us all off!!!
[This message edited by Hope2B at 3:11 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]
We all obsess over the hints we should have seen.
Dear God, mine was at it for 25 years!!!
I can't obsess too much I suppose because there must have been so many hints.... Where does one start???
Silly bitch that I was I missed them all.
This should give you a giggle.
I worked days and he worked evenings. MANY times over the years I would call him on his cell phone for some reason mid morning (we call them 'mobile phones' in Oz). He didn't answer. When I asked him later he told me that there was something wrong with his phone and it kept 'switching itself off' or he was 'down the back' and there mustn't have been any signal.
Sometimes I picked up his phone to see if he had had any calls from the children. The message file was always empty. So was the call file. When I asked him about it he told me he emptied them because he was worried they would get full!! I thought he was a tech illiterate!!! One day he started to send me texts and started to text the children. I asked him who showed him how to do this. He told me one of the children had. I now know they didn't (I asked them after dday).Ow3 taught him!!!
Many times at night he had to work back late (from 11pm until 12 or 1am). One day I noticed there was no "overtime" pay on his payslip. (His pay always varied as his shifts did and I rarely checked - just accepted what appeared in the bank account). When I asked about it he said he didn't claim it to cover for his mates who were late to work.
These things went on for YEARS. MANY years. I never thought he was cheating. Never once.
Please stop second guessing yourself. Sadly honest people are often the least suspicious.
Looking at these and so many other things- dozens of in your face hints I can't believe I missed them.
When I start to feel stupid I think to myself "I'd rather be naive than a cheat!!!"
I am chatty tonight!!!
I sure remember, often, BEGGING my WH to please pay attention to things and to please think and be thoughtful because if you think and are thoughtful, everything will follow. I also recall actually yelling at him numerous times in frustration, "What is WRONG with you??"
Didn't do me a bit of good because he was so far away in fantasy land. (sigh) I guess working on the M is a good thing as I do see progress...but I still can't stand to look at his face directly--too much pain for me
Believe me, when the thought first entered my mind that maybe my H was interested or was involved in someone else, I laughed it off. Not Mr. TBM, he's a dirt bomb and a bore. Of course no OW would put up with him. I drew the conclusion that my H was simply a jerk.
The gentle, sweet man that I knew morphed into a mean and nasty individual toward me. He was not that way with other people. So I knew that my H was selective and his attitude was directed towards me. It was at this point that I could no longer attribute my H's distance and dislike for me to anything other than him being in a relationship with another woman.
Once I accepted that my H was having an A as a possibility for his behavior, then my mind was open to connect the dots. Boy were there many dots!!!
Both feet pointed forward; positive
When I left her in 2010, I came back because I was worried about her, I saw the disconnect between reality and her perception. I came back to ensure she got some help. Well, she did get help and worked hard with IC and reading books and journaling to work on her perceptions. I know that now she can "see" that what she feels is not always what is real. But that was not enough. She and her family and friends are talking about what an ass I am, a cheapskate, an abuser. I struggle between wanting to again try to help fix things, and remembering our M has never been good for any sustained period and that D will be OK. I will thrive on my own. I have IC scheduled for a session tomorrow, and my beloved boat is listed for sale to reduce my expenses and generate some much needed cash to facilitate all of this.
As for the comments about seeing signs, I did in 2007. I drove myself nuts, I confronted FWW. She and a well-meaning friend convinced me it was in my head. Had I found SI at the time I would have known different, but I did not. I went on to IC that was very helpful for me and issues of enabling, codependency, perfectionism. FWW went on to her next and last OM. Signs continued in front of me, as FWW said; she and last OM had their A in front of me. They both assumed I knew and did not care. I assumed it was my insecurity and my jealousy, after all, I had been "wrong" before. I kept looking for some clear sign, and it was not until I saw a Facebook post from OM saying miss you, wish that you were here XOXO that I got a clue. FWW was out of town at the time. When she returned home I went through her phone and found the sexting between her and her BIL. Less than a week later I had a confession of LTA with OM1 and OM2, 2xONS/EA OM3, and EA with BIL. It would be another 7 months until I really understood the depth and breadth. I recently attended a session by Greg Poland on the role of cognitive biases in judgment and decision making. Many of the topics described in this session apply to the pre-dday BS.
iwam, you are right on the timing to wait and see what the WS can And will do. I wrote that during a period of pain and some substance abuse. Beyond that, I really do not think that I will regret my 5 years post dday. No matter what FWW's family or even my own children may say or think of me, I KNOW that I did the best I could. I suspect the FWW did also. I can also honestly say that some of our best times and my best memories of the M occurred in the last 5 years. Of course, so did the very worst.
FWW thinks we are going to D because of her A and that I will never forget that. She is right, I will never forget that, but we will D because I have not felt loved by her in any sustained way for a very, very long time. I think that I will go to my grave loving FWW and who she was for me, but I think what TheBestMe wrote is true; sometimes we have to leave those we love to be the best we can be. I often wonder what my life and family would have been like with a supportive wife.
So, I look towards the last half of a very busy year. So far I have had some great professional success that continues to build, my youngest graduated HS with honors and starts college. My youngest stepdaughter married her longtime BF. I will be divorced, starting a fourth phase of my life and planning what I want my final act to look like. My oldest son will graduate from a prestigious State school.
Welcome to all the new posters. I am a bit too wrapped up in my own stuff to be of much support just now, but there are other wise folks on LTA who can provide insight and support for you.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:43 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]
This reminds me of the story about the blindfolded people that are asked to identify something by touching it. The object is an elephant but they don't know that. One person grabs the trunk and thinks it's a snake, another grabs a leg and thinks it's a tree, another grabs an ear and thinks it's large plant, and so forth. Until they take off the blindfolds they will argue all day about what the object is. My life prior to Dday was like that.
You know when I did see signs. After the year of false R. After I had been here with people that understood my situation and could "school" me on exactly what a remorseful spouse shoud look like. They could help me understand that there was nothing wrong with me standing up for myself and my kids. They could help me understand what I was dealing with. They could help me understand that even if I divorced my WW I would be okay. If you don't know what you are looking for then you will ALWAYS miss it. I filed for D because SI and the people in this thread helped me understand what to look for.
SI helped me learn how to identify the elephant by taking my blindfold off. The pieces of information I had prior to Dday had no context at all and could EASILY be explained away by my WW. I trusted her and had no reason to think she was lying. When the false R was over and I started thinking I was holding trees, snakes, and plants again I immediately thought elephant and filed. I didn't even have proof but I now knew what it felt like when she wasn't being honest with me so I ended it.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:44 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]
...but I now knew what it felt like when she wasn't being honest with me ...
Well put. This is what I "felt" on my return from my travel. There was no new OM, but there was "something". That is why I checked her phone and found the texts referring to me negatively to friends and family.
Interestingly, these referrals are only with her 2 family members who do not like me, and a friend who does not like me and another who does not know me. These family members and friends who do not like me did not like stbxFWW doing the IC and changing, because she had been one of them in her outlook, blaming others for her unhappiness. With the scales falling form her eyes she challenged them to see their reality also, which they did not like.
With those who know or like me, the story she is giving is that we were "holding it together" these last 5 years for the children, but with youngest out of school it is time to do what was inevitable.
these referrals are only with her 2 family members who do not like me, and a friend who does not like me and another who does not know me.
ATS, I am sorry for your situation. I was pulling for you just as I pull for everyone that wants and are working towards R. When I filed there was a sense of calm and freedom in letting go. For me, I got tired of fighting by myself for something my unremorseful WW did not want. I said before my WW wasn't vindictive or overly evil. She just couldn't fix herself and ultimately was going to drop another DDay on me. I essentially had to put myself out of my own misery. There is freedom in walking away KNOWING you gave 100% to your M and even more to R even if it didn't work. I know you know this but make sure you keep doing the things you did that make you happy. It truly does supercharge your healing whether you R or D. It really does help though when the choice is D. I was pretty much detached when I filed but it was still tough. I wish you the best.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 10:02 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]
closed the door, I work with maintenence/construction types most of the day and crying or red eyes would not sit well.
I hope for feeling calm with a direction set, but for the last two days I am feeling anxiety like I did at dday. Part of the problem is that I thought that we were doing better other than stress from the wedding and that we would reconnect when I got back. I was so suprised. Even at the wedding we went for an evening walk together at her request to enjoy the end of the day.
It really did help to read you had similar thoughts and observations, that maybe it is not just all in my head.
The only other emotion I didn't expect but hit me like a ton a bricks was anger after stbxww moved out. I posted about this before but it was mostly anger at myself for trying for so long. I was pissed that I wasted an additional 2 years on a lost cause. That was stuff I had to work out myself though and I did. May or may not happen to you but in the end I was mad but I was okay with working to save my M even if ultimately I could not. I am okay with the choices I made.
Speaking from experience, perspective is everything. I viewed getting a D as the beginning of whatever came next. It wasn't an end it was a beginning. I am still figuring out what comes next but it's fun and WAAAAYYYY better than where I was before. You will get there too.
ETA: for others reading, I am not pro-D. I had a unremorseful WS so there was no chance for true R for me. It just took me 2 years and much prodding from SI to figure out she was unremorseful.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 10:41 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]
How is your son doing? I hope everything is going ok.
Everyone has to make the best decision for their situation. I know I made my decision to stay at first because of the kids. I was deathly afraid that he would kidnap them overseas for the first few years. I had forgotten that.
With a LTA, it's often with a Long term M. We have a lifestyle, kids, family, etc. It's hard to change everything.
Even if we are trying to prepare for the worst, it still hurts when it happens.
I am starting down the same road, and I'm scared and although I know it'll hurt, I know in my heart when it actually happens, I'll be a basket case.
With a LTA there are a lot of choices.
On SI, the usual advice is to wait 6 months before making a life changing decision.
This is very sound advice.
But the main thing we have to do is to heal ourselves. Although it has been suggested that the WS should help the BS heal, don't count on that. We must heal ourselves and not rely on the WS for that.
It is extremely difficult and hurtful.
We have to make decisions for ourselves now. Not like the old M where we made decisions together. It's a new M. We decide what is best for us.
Sometimes we may decide that although the new M isn't what we really want, we may decide to stay because of a myriad of reasons like the kids, family, lifestyle, etc.
But the main thing that I highly suggest is that if the WS is not remorseful, is not treating you right, is blaming you, etc. THIS IS THE NOW.
You do not deserve to be treated like this.
If they are not remorseful, and are blameshifting, still in the A, etc. they are not thinking of you at all., They are thinking of themselves.
You cannot force them. You cannot change them. You can only heal for yourself and be the best person you can be.
Do not allow the WS to treat you less than you deserve. You are worth more. If they cannot change, you must end the M.
Sometimes this wakes the WS up, sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes the WS doesn't wake up till years later and it's too late.
DS38 saw xWH#1 for Father's Day. For the first time in the 25 years we've been S/D, xWH#1 tells my son, " I still love your mother".
Remorse? Regret? Who knows?
Heal yourself!!! You are important!!!
[This message edited by Hrtbrkn2 at 2:09 PM, June 18th (Wednesday)]
its scary when you think about how long we have been at this shit isn't it?!?!?
sorry to hear that your kids health is deteriorating...i hope its a temporary setback
hope: vent away.....we all need to vent, time and time again....we are here to listen
ats: i need to play devils advocate just for a bit..
mrs ats callin you an ass in her text to someone else.....many a time before d-day when i was pissed at pfm i would say something like that and worse to my friends...lots of wives do...its just simply the way it is...we perceive sich different then you guys do and many of would not think twice about callin our husbands as ass....
as for you callin it quits because of her affair....i don't believe its the sole reason, but i do believe that there is the possiblity that if she didn't cheat you would not seek divorce now....especially since one of the main reasons for you is the lack of intimacy or for her sex....and she was ready willing able to do just that for and with her ap's......
i didn't know that mrs ats stopped goin to ic....that to me is a biggie...it means she has given up....and that is not good for either of you or your boys...
anyways...just wanted to offer a bit of perspective and try not to take those words of her personally....because honestly i am sure it really has nothing to do with you personally, but of her "perceptions" which we all know can be warped...
honest: oh dear heart, you have come a long way baby.....reading your posts now compared to way back when you have really come into your own...you go girl...
hrtbrken: oh my...reading your posts brings me back....when i found out about pfm....
before d-day pfm was an angry man, always yellin about something, plus a workaholic..always on his phone..in front of me and the kids was always business...non stop business....anyways..after d-day he changed completely...my dd who knew nothing looked at me one day and said...."you know mom, he is trying"....
that was when i sat down with my kids...all teens at the time...and told them that daddy and i were having big issues that were between he and i...but that they needed to know that daddy was very wrong, and what he did was very serious...we are going to marriage counseling to get help to work through it...
sidenote...my kids had already known that something serious went down...and to top it off a part of it was that he had hid money from me...i found it....and it was in an account with his mother....and my mil upon pfm telling her that we needed and wanted her signature to get that money out of their names....my mil decided to write checks to my kids....with all the money...so i had to tell my kids that large deposits were going in their bank accounts and as soon as those checks cleared i would be taking the money out...so my kids were already privy to this thanks to my mil...and even without this...my kids knew something was very very wrong...
and here i am 5years later...all my kids know..they are now 18, 20 and 21...and ironically....because this became a house divided (pfm became the dad who lets them do pretty much whatever they want) 2 out of 3 kids are not and have not been speaking to me...(i know this will bite pfm in the ass...but it could be quite a while before that happens...and right now i am hurting because i seemingly have lost the biggest thing that matters to me...my kids...and the 3 kid is barely speaking to him or i)
as for how long will the anger last...it could and probably will last for a couple of years....especially if you are staying within the marriage...no matter what you decide...just living together exacerbates the anger...
you are still quite new....quite raw, and extremely emotional....it will take time...lots and lots of time.....go to ic if able...and take up something...walking, zumba, swimming, painting...some kind of activity that just for you that feeds your soul....
and i keep on steppin!!!
I have been reading this website for almost 2 yrs now but this is my first post and I need some help. Sorry I this is long and I do not have all the abbr down. Any and all advice is needed. - The good, the bad and the ugly. I have read everything on this site and have to say I did a lot of things wrong.
We dated for 7 yrs. Married for 9
Found out in July 2012 my husband was having an EA/PA affair since he believes since 2000. We had broken up and he had reached out to girls who use to hang out with the divorced guys back in the day when I first met him. He said it was mostly chit chat - lunch or coffee and they had sex only a few (4-5) between 2007 to 2009. During this time we were selling both our house and building our dream retirement home. I was totally clueless until I found text message in July 2012. This is DD#1. He TT and gave me a high level timeline. He moved out we both went to IC and MC. I asked for a NC letter sent but both our counselors thought it was a bad idea because she was not mentally stable and that would open the door for her to contact him. My husband is caring and has a big heart. But the emails did not stop with one, there were multiple ones about her wanting to commit suicide and had no reason to live. He sent me each one he got and we discussed it. The reason my husband said he had an affair was due to communication issues. So we worked on that - by the way he decided that in the shower one day. He was very transparent said he would never do this again he understood why he did it and had the tools not to. He did not want to go through this pain again himself. SO this takes us to DD#2- Mother Day weekend 2014. He was acting strange lately and I had a hunch something was going on. So I checked his phone while he was sleeping and found emails between them. He said she emailed him back in Jan that she did not think she was going to be alive to see her Daughter graduate. He felt he needed to let her ask the questions she needed so she could get closure. He felt like he was the reason she was suicidal. He said they did not meet in person just emails (which he deleted right away) I kicked him out and told him to file for DI. I was looking at buying a house. I was out. But then on May 30th He said things were going too fast, so I then told him to go back to IC and figure his stuff out and I would give him some time. So now we are at DD#3 - This last weekend I had a feeling and asked him to send a NC letter to her, he did she responded so I asked her a few questions, I know this is wrong but I needed the truth. They had been physical 2 times before I found DD#2 and 2 times after that but nothing since May 30th. I kicked him out again and told him to file for DI. He made this decision he can end it. He now is reading SI and understands what I said all along by reading SI. He wanted to be a KISA, he is selfish, has low self-esteem, needs validation and is conflict avoidance. He said it was like an alcoholic once you take a sip it is hard to stop even though you knew you should By the way she says she was diagnosed Borderline personality disorder and she cuts herself. He realized after reading about BPD that he could not help her. Oh she knew he was married the 2nd time around, so no excuse. So this is where we are today. I love him but not sure he can be fixed and if I want to stay around and risk going through DD#4. I have been spiraling the last few days and feel like I am about to have a huge anxiety attack (yes I am already on drugs for this) I plan to go back to IC and visit an attorney. This will be an amicable DI . But not sure what I want for my future. I think I am going crazy…..
I think that after the embarrassing wedding of her older DD, she wanted to put on a show for this one. She got my folks involved, all our family there, new clothes, lots of money spent. I think my parents and I were props to show the nice, normal family. Then with the wedding done she was ready to discard me (us).
I understand you tell your spouse he or she acted as an ass, and then may share that in conversations with people outside the M, but not talking with your spouse and only with people outside the M is the beginning of demonization and the road to entitlement