for the fine women here.. Well, you can see what a typical man thinks.
on a positive note, got WH to get chinese food and these were the fortunes
love how the universe speaks
1. Nature, time and patience are the three great healers
2. An angry man opens his mouth and shuts up his eyes
3. You will do well to expand your business
4. A thrilling time is in your immediate future
Our youngest son is turning 6 Aug 29th... we usually celebrate labor day weekend (his due date - boy's got his dad's pun-humor) and were talking about going to 6 flags and of course the Montgomery County fair is up and running... so hoping for "thrilling" to be confined to physical roller coasters as I have to admit I am wacked-out tired from the mental ride I've been on this year
hugs to everyone and hopefully enjoy the weekend
WH is katumus and I am not reading his posts but we talk a lot and working on listening better!
married 17 years
Here are some examples (we're usually out with friends, and no one asks to see one another's fortune because we read them aloud. We used to add "...in bed" at the end, but no more).
Man who lies will not be trusted.
Time wounds all heels.
Be honest in thought, word, and deed.
It is good to be of good character.
[This message edited by Hope2B at 11:41 PM, August 9th (Saturday)]
Not just the brokenness of the affairs, but the personality issues like compartmentalization, projection, lack of empathy, fear of intimacy, conflict avoidance and such that allowed the affairs to initiate and sustain.
This is what I fear in my M. Is this how WH chose to be during the affair, or is this how WH just is?
Ugh. We've had a peaceful and even enjoyable weekend. Most of the time.
Last night after a movie we walked by a loud bar that I've only been to once. WH went multiple times with OW, sometimes with coworkers as well.
Before I knew about the A WH mentioned in passing that he'd nearly gotten in a fistfight there once. Color me surprised; WH had always struck me as the type to talk his way out of a situation and he'd looked down on people who resolved things with their fists.
I don't remember the explanation but it involved something happening to "one of the girls" that was out with the coworkers. I remember being surprised and annoyed that any girls were around.
After D-Day I found a reference to my WH defending OW in that bar.
As we walked by the bar I triggered hard and said, "If somebody bumped into me in that bar, you wouldn't get in a fistfight over it. You'd blame me and ask me what I did to have that person bump into me."
WH got upset and said it wasn't true. That my comment was inflammatory, baseless, and unhelpful.
I just stayed quiet for a little while and eventually we moved onto another subject.
But the truth is, that really IS how I feel. That's how I think WH would react with me in an identical situation.
So how should I have handled it? What should I have said or done? Should I have just kept that feeling to myself?
What should I have said or done? Should I have just kept that feeling to myself?
"If somebody bumped into me in that bar, you wouldn't get in a fistfight over it. You'd blame me and ask me what I did to have that person bump into me."
Much better lead off would have been your statement:
But the truth is, that really IS how I feel. That's how I think WH would react with me in an identical situation.
You can re-open the topic with him by stating you are sorry to say he would blame you, but that it is what you feel. Tell him rather than bury feelings that are the seeds of resentment, you want to confront this with him.
Not blaming you for handling it wrong, your WH missed a chance to step up and comfort you and own his past history.
was on facebook this am, and saw one of those quotey things that was not the ususal and i loved it....do not know how to post a photo so will just have to retype all it says:
There comes a time in your life when you walk away from all the drama and the people who create it,
You surround yourself with people who make you laugh,
Forget the bad and focus on the good
Love the people who treat you right and
pray for the ones who don't
Life is too short to be anything BUT HAPPY!
Falling down is part of life,
Getting back up is living....
-Jose N. Harris
One of the things i had hated about all of this shit is and was "how" to tell someone something, the proper phrasing so that you can get all the info you need, or not put the person on the defensive like ats has just stated....and you know what...i felt it then and still feel it now....that should not be my job, my job is to do what i need to do for me, his job was to make sure he did what he could to repair that with which he broke....and if he couldn't fix it then it was time for me to begin anew.....i am not the type to pussyfoot around, i am not the type to sit and pick and choose my words carefully.....and i am the type to sting with my words.....and if he was worth any salt he would take it and fix what needed fixing...
now i grant you, learning how to talk to someone like ats had mentioned and even how tryn likes to do.....would prob get you more of the answers you seek......but i just didn't care as much about getting the answers then i did in getting to root of it all and will he be the one to "STEP UP"......i was tired of being the one through all the years of trying to fix what i knew was broken with our marriage...and he never did squat and infact was doing far worse then i knew at the time to destroy our marriage and me!!! This to me became HIS opportunity to either step up or as far as i was concerned....step out....i was done.....and instead of stepping up he chose the topics to step up with and remained steadfast in that which was responsible in breaking "us" he remained a liar....and still is!!!!
life is too short to never feel safe with someone that you love and supposedly love you in return...for me, i would rather be alone!!!
I've finally been able to write some of my story in my profile, but it is very difficult for me to relate. Learning of my WW's LTA has been the hardest thing I've ever lived through. And I remember that first night, I honestly did not see how my heart could possibly keep beating until morning.
I don't feel like I've had much luck with IC's; my last one told me I just need to get over it and move on. He said he feels WW is sorry and would not cheat again. He tells me I should not be telling her about my triggers or asking for her any more details (I haven't gotten a full, truthful timeline, though I have asked). He seems to say the opposite of what I read here on SI. He also thinks very little of SI, saying its just a bunch of angry betrayed people "grinding" on their spouses and doesn't think it helps. I think he's clueless about the pain infidelity causes, and the help and comfort SI can often be.
We just relocated to a different state so I'm probably feeling a little isolated and lonely.
Hope you are all having good days. The move away from home and my job search and buying house here I think has added some additional stress; I seem to be triggering and thinking about the affair all the time again.
first off...get a new ic....any ic that tells you to get over it needs to "feel" what it really is to be betrayed especially with a lta....so any ic that tells you anything like that needs to go
second....while i understand the need to be able to tell your ws anything and everything you feel (i am one to do just that) it usually will not produce what you really seek....
most ws's do not know how to react in any other way but defensive...and when defensive,you do not get answers and you do not get the words you long to hear...with possible exception to the "im sorry"
this thread can be very quiet especially on weekends....it can also get chatty...although latley it seems to have been quite quiet....being that you are male..the thread for men might also be helpful to you....
keep posting, it really helps, even if there isn't anyone to respond...just getting out helps....
take care of yourself, eat, drink and exercise if possible...it will help in more ways then you can imagine
and take each day one at a time....do not make any decisions until you can make them from a non emotional standpoint....although since you have been at this since 2013...you are not so raw.....but a lta is different breed of betrayal.....years in the making and often years in the healing...even in the event of divorce....its still a betrayal one must learn to live with....we never quitte "get over" but rather move past....
tribe....summer days go so fast...please each of you take each day and make the most of it......
i played with penguins last week...was awesome....can't wait til the next adventure...wish i had another lined up...these days just fly so damned fast....and i could remember a time when each day felt like a year and a day...and then on the other hand flew by faster then i could blink....and yet concerning the lta....moving past this shit just cant seem to go fast enough....and that sucks...more time out of an already short life just trying to move past this shit i dont deserve...none of us deserve this shit...it just sucks...but i hold on to knowing that I WILL!!!
Keep posting. Moving, Job search is very stressful
You might look for a BAN (Beyond Affairs Network) group in your new area. I've found it very helpful.
This does profoundly change your life, and you had no say in the matter, and there wasn't anything you could have done to prevent their choices. They are so very broken.
Stressful times seem to trigger me too. It sounds like you are depressed about the move and the job search. Both of these in the best of circumstances can be challenging.
Do give yourself credit. You have weathered the storm of one of life's most difficult and tragic events. Tap into the qualities that got you moving in a positive direction. Granted, it may be tough, but you can do it!
As for the former counselor telling you to get over it, been there. Your IC may have been trying to tell you that you are stuck in some negative feeling. Mine, suggested that I examine why I could not move past certain things.
Please continue to post here. SI has been both a source of good information and a avenue for healing. Like any other source of information, we take what we need and leave the rest. Sometimes we have to do that with a therapist.
Both feet pointed forward; positive
Shirley Glass in her book: Not Just friends changed all of that. She wrote the book based on a long career as a therapist and she felt that those that did not rug sweep and instead examined all aspects of the infidelity had a better chance of reconciling.
The first marriage counselor that we went to also insisted that I needed to just get 'over it'. Especially since my husband was so remorseful.
I challenged this therapist and asked him how he could expect me to 'get over' the revelation of a five year affair in just a few months?
I also had the feeling that he was relating way too much with my husband (the WS) and suspected that he had been a WS himself. When I asked him that question he refused to answer but his demeanor made me think that I was right.
Not that a former WS could not do a good job in counseling a couple dealing with infidelity but this particular guy obviously could not!
So... we looked for another marriage counselor and the next one was much better.
But, having said that- I really think that what helped us more than MC was individual counseling.
My FWH went to IC for 1 and 1/2 yrs after d-day as well as attending AA meetings and I went to IC for 4 years after d-day (thank goodness for good insurance!).
I think that IC for the WS is key to them figuring out how they had allowed themselves to behave the way they did. So that they do not repeat the patterns.
So often on SI you will read about false reconciliation-with the WS continuing in the affair or embarking on a new one -even years after d-day. The one thing that those stories tend to have in common is a WS that wanted to sweep everything under the rug and did not do the hard work and a BS that forgave too soon and did not make any demands on the WS because they wanted to R.
[This message edited by njgal480 at 2:12 PM, August 17th (Sunday)]
For those of you whose WS had a LTA and are reconciled. Why did you decide to work on forgiveness and gift R to your spouse? How did you process the thought that your WS practically had a double life? How did you overcome all the negative emotions of a LTA?
Why did you decide to work on forgiveness and gift R to your spouse?
I would say that there were several reasons why I offered R to my WW. First, off she was remorseful for her actions - NC and other requests of mine were followed so I could feel safe going forward. Second, we have kids. I don't believe that kids can be the only reason to stay together but they can be a reason to give it a shot. I want to be able to be a positive influence on my kids lives on a daily basis, the D route would likely have not made that possible. Third, we actually had a good marriage all along. Yes there was the LTA but in my case my WW had cheated from the very beginning. There was not a falling out of the M that sparked the LTA. We were really not also dealing with a broken M (yes I do realize the LTA in a sense broke the M) on top of the LTA.
How did you process the thought that your WS practically had a double life?
I found this part to not be easy and still deal with. In my case my WW was truly a double life. She was with OM1 even before I knew her and maintained that relationship until I found out on DDay. I know it happened and have just had to accept it and move forward. I still struggle with it at time - old photos are very difficult to look at for me.
How did you overcome all the negative emotions of a LTA?
I know I had some negative emotions but for me it wasn't the negative emotions that I found difficult, it was the indifference. I actually found when I was angry about it, it probably was easier to deal with. When you don't have the lows, you don't have the highs either and that is what I found to be the most difficult. That's just me though.
Thanks for thinking of me and shouting out.
As more and more time passes from the decision to D and her moving out, I really do find myself feeling better and better.
I recently attended a party with mostly academic friends from my time working at a University. stbx felt stupid around my academic friends and did not ever want to participate. It was nice renewing some friendships with people I had not seen much since I left that position 2 years ago.
While the uncertainty and lack of control surrounding the D process bothers me, I am for the most part feeling happier and more optimistic about myself as time passes. I enjoy who I am. I have lowered the barriers and flirt back with some of the women at work. I can do things (trim bushes, re-arrange furnishings, throw out old food supplies) without asking permission or worrying about being yelled at or second guessed about doing something without her approval. I actually have more people to do things with at the moment than I have time to do things with them.
Once the D is final I will be able to re-exert control over my life and plans again. I see things only getting better. I rarely think of the Affairs or OM anymore. I realize I really am a nice guy, fun to be with. People like me and I enjoy being with people. I can honestly say that I tried too hard and I waited too long. I am thankful that stbx decided to pull the plug, because I am not sure that I ever would have.
For those of you whose WS had a LTA and are reconciled. Why did you decide to work on forgiveness and gift R to your spouse? How did you process the thought that your WS practically had a double life? How did you overcome all the negative emotions of a LTA
For me, forgiveness is not essential to moving forward. His lies are lies that I will never forgive. His double life, is a deceit that I will never forgive. What I can do is, accept that these things happened. There is no changing that, or behaving like the mindset that allowed Mr. TBM to make those choices did not exist.
The signs were clear that infidelity was almost a sure thing. Unfortunately, I did not have the tools or the willingness to see it prior to our M. Each person in his family participated in infidelity. Disrespect for marriage was played out in the open. There were so many FOO issues between the two of us, that this low moral behavior did not register as the most important. I thought that this wonderful man would NEVER do that. I honestly thought that loving my H would cover a multitude of sins.
I will spend the rest of my life working through the anger and pain that this betrayal has wrought upon me. Things that were second nature to me have been broken such as my: give a damn, trust and faith in my ability toward good judgment.
I am no fool, nor am I desperate. I choose to work toward R because he came clean and asked me to. R is on my terms. I stayed through the worst trauma in my life. I can give my best effort toward creating a M that is healthier and deeper than the pre LTA marriage.
[This message edited by TheBestMe at 4:07 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)]
Lately I have been feeling like I'm just waiting. Waiting to feel better. Or worse. Waiting for a sign. Waiting for the little voice inside to give me a clue. Waiting for WH to cheat again or prove definitively that he won't. Waiting to feel... something.
Ats makes a pretty convincing case for walking away. TBM demonstrates that staying even if you feel "meh" does not equate with selling your soul if you get what you need out of it.
I need some sky writing or something.
[This message edited by krsplat at 5:12 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)]
How was I able to do it?
Well.... it took time.
I was devastated when I found out about the LTA.
I was a complete mess and had a break down.
I kicked my FWH out of the house after d-day and began to search for divorce lawyers.
I contacted the OW, the OW's husband, my husband and OW's co-workers, his boss (they were co-workers).I outed the affair to everyone -friends, family....
I was convinced that we would divorce.
We were separated for 6 months before I allowed him to move back home. The reason that I decided to try to reconcile was due to the changes I saw in my FWH.
He was extremely remorseful immediately after d-day, he threw the OW under the bus immediately and never contacted her again (even though we were no longer living together and it looked like we were heading for divorce).
But, the biggest change in him was that he got sober for the first time in our marriage.
He went to AA after d-day and went to 90 meetings in 90 days. He also went to IC for 1 and 1/2 yrs. The first 6 months he went to IC 2x per week!
During our marriage he was a functional alcoholic- he held on to a professional job and was able to take care of his duties at home but the drinking and going out with the guys was a constant source of trouble in our marriage.
So his getting sober was a huge deal for me.
He moved back home on our wedding anniversary day- it was our 30th!.
I insisted on new rings (I had taken mine off after d-day) and a re-commitment ceremony.It was just us in the minister's office.
I did not renew my marriage vows or anything like that- instead we both read statements to each other about our commitment to try to save our marriage.
I needed something memorable to mark his return to the house. I did not want to rug sweep or have him think that he would just walk back in as if nothing had happened.
In my mind he had destroyed our marriage and now we were starting over.This was a new beginning.
And this time everything in our marriage would be different.
So... how was I able to reconcile? well... it didn't happen over night.
It was a long journey.
I went to IC for 4 yrs after d-day trying to make sense of all of this mess.
I needed to take meds after d-day (anti-anxiety and anti-depressants) to help me get through the trauma.
The main thing that was consistent was my FWH's resolve to do whatever it took to win me back and to save the marriage.
There were many times in the first year or so after d-day that I raged and said and did things that I had never done in my life!
But, he kept trying....whether it was with a kind gesture like bringing home flowers or planning a nice dinner out etc. or a vacation etc. or just simply helping around the house and just being there.
But, even with all of this there were many times even after he moved back home that I questioned my decision to reconcile because it went so against what I thought I would do in this situation.
I really thought that infidelity, especially a LTA would be a deal breaker for me! And meanwhile..here I was forgiving him.
So there was this struggle within me.
I think it wasn't until I was 4 years post d-day that I began to see the light at the end of the tunnel....meaning that I stopped having random thoughts about divorcing him and started to think more about a happy future together.
We now have a new and improved marriage and are really happy together.
My husband regrets everything that he has done in the past and wishes that there was a way to take it all way but he can't.
I will never forget about the LTA but... when I think of it now I do not have that fight or flight reaction that I used to have or... the stabbing pain in my heart that I used to feel.
Now..its just a thought... and it passes.
Hope this explanation helps....
In my mind he had destroyed our marriage and now we were starting over.This was a new beginning.
And this time everything in our marriage would be different
NJ, this is so true. I discussed this very point in IC. As far as I was concerned, my H had divorced me and was living another life. This has been a difficult concept for Mr. TBM to accept. He sees his turning back toward me simply as the continuation of the existing M.
Just as I have come to know him, he is experiencing a changed me. Our interactions are different than what each of us had been used to. I call bullsh&t when I hear it as opposed to my former reaction of holding things inside. I have come to know that my desire to make his life happy was well intended but misdirected. Each person is responsible for their own happiness. Most importantly, I have learned that being a good spouse is not insurance against unbelievable heartache.
@krsplat- Each and every day I listen to my inner voice for guidance in this M. Not a day goes by that my ear is not to the ground. My H has proven to me that he can be cruel without being violent. Mr. TBM has put people, places and things in my life that I never intended to know.
His behavior has forever changed me. My na´ve and trusting nature is gone. Mostly, I will not die if this relationship does not work. But, while he is trying to "make it up to" me and to be the "man that I deserve" because I "am the love of his life", I am going to enjoy it. The caveat, I will not do so with blind faith.
[This message edited by TheBestMe at 5:10 AM, August 21st (Thursday)]