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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Living in the "now" - realistic?
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'll call bullshit on this too. a large part of beung a mature human being is foreseeing how the consequences of our actions will effect others and taking ownership of that
Right. Other people's actions can be the stimulus for our own feelings, but they're not the cause in the literal sense of the word. Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that other people can be impacted by the decisions you make, but that's not the same thing as causing those feelings.

It's a slippery slope of an entirely different sort if we start holding other people accountable for what we ourselves feel.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2164 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
brokensmile322
♀ Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree, Ascendent. Took me a long time to get to this point.


Regarding Codepency behavior…

It is true that we all probably display the behaviors of codependency every now and again. The defining factor between codependent and interdependent is in autonomy. Are you a "whole" individual who is sharing your happiness with another and creating more happiness together or are you the person whose boundaries of where you begin and the other person ends so blurry you have lost yourself? Your happiness cannot be solely dependent on another.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1541 | Registered: Jun 2012
DixieD
♀ Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

t/j
RipsInMyChest, you haven't read Codependent No More, so I don't understand how can you think the label gets thrown around too much when you don't seem to understand it fully, and are focusing solely on the label, like it's a bad thing.

It's only negative if you stop at the label and think your life is therefore hopeless. It's not. If a person can identify with it and see the traits in themselves, and ItsaClimb did that, and is now trying to work on her own behaviors, she's ahead of the game. That's a good thing. Without the label, she may not have known where to look or that it's a problem or how to work on it and continue to repeat the pattern over and over again. I don't see how that benefits anyone.

Itsaclimb didn't say she acted like this only during this trauma. She recognized it's a long standing behavior and the trauma brought it to her awareness.
end t/j

Itsaclimb, it take time. Yeah, that dreaded word. You aren't alone.

You know you can't control or fix his issues. It gives a false sense of security when you do that.

Codependency is complicated and not to be confused with interdependence which is not to be confused with independence. It will likely be a life long struggle for me because some of the behaviors will be there forever in some degree, but I'm moving closer to interdependence. I recognize that now.

One of the reasons I stayed with my husband after dday was because I thought it would give me the greatest chance for growth if him and I could really work through our individual issues while still being a couple. It would have been easier for me to live alone and isolate myself rather than learning to navigate how to have a healthy relationship.

This new life, while far more real, true, honest and genuine is a pretty scary place sometimes!

Because it's new. We've never been here before. I think sometimes the feelings we have of fear and hopelessness and being utterly tired happen right before we see more growth and big breakthroughs.

((((ItsaClimb)))


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Althea
♀ Member
Member # 37765
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The word that is coming to mind right now as I read this post is control. Although you aren't putting it that way, the assurance you are looking for in the future is wanting some control over something that can't be controlled.

For some of us who grew up in scary households, control over ourselves and perhaps those around us was the only way to calm the chaos. As a result, things either feel in control or totally out of control. Does this resonate with you too?

For me, the current journey is accepting that I control is a spectrum, and just because I give up some control, or accept some chaos, disorder, unknown, doesn't mean there will be a disaster or that things are totally out of control.

The truth is that even if your WH was 100% trustworthy, he could die tomorrow. You can't really count on anything in the future. Should that stop you from making plans, joint bucket lists, or saving for vacations? Not if you don't want it to. It just means that plans change, and you understand and accept that.

I get where you are coming from here. Have you read any of Claudia Black's books? I found Changing Course to be hugely helpful.


Taking it one day at a time.

Posts: 457 | Registered: Dec 2012
DixieD
♀ Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just wanted to add, I don't think I looked to my husband for my happiness. That's not where my codependent behavior was. I just didn't think he was capable of bringing me such unhappiness.

I want to look to the future, plan our retirement, make a joint bucket-list, start saving for future holidays... and at the back of my mind there is something stopping me from doing those things.

You can still do that now. After dday my husband and I used joint bucket lists as a way of reconnecting and rebuilding. Life is short. One thing we've learned through this is to not wait till tomorrow because it might not be there. If you want to see things or do things, make plans to do it now.

Athea and I cross posted I have Claudia Black's Changing Course but haven't read it yet, her other book Deceived was very helpful.

[This message edited by DixieD at 12:32 PM, May 8th (Thursday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Althea
♀ Member
Member # 37765
Default  Posted: 12:44 PM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DixieD, great minds think alike.

I'm pretty sure you are the one who turned me on to Claudia Black, so thank you for that.

end t/j


Taking it one day at a time.

Posts: 457 | Registered: Dec 2012
DixieD
♀ Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, May 8th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Glad it helped you Althea.

[This message edited by DixieD at 1:11 PM, May 8th (Thursday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
crossroads2010
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Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 6:04 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there is a balance...if I am really living day by day, there is no goal, nothing to look forward to and no security for tomorrow, next week, next year....if I am so concerned about what may happen tomorrow, I may miss the beauty and joy of my life today.

We don't really know what life will bring tomorrow...life can change in a millisecond. The thing about this A rollercoaster is that it robs us of the one thing we assumed to be true...that barring death, our spouses, our soul mates (for lack of a better term) would be there to support us, to put us and our children above all else as we would have for them. Now we can never KNOW that for sure...at least I can't.

My decision to stay in my M is truly a decision I make everyday now...one I never thought about 5 years ago.

I am not sure if I am or have been co-dependant or interdependent...I probably need to read the book...it has been mentioned on SI a lot and may lead me to a new understanding of this craziness.


Posts: 600 | Registered: Nov 2010
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My decision to stay in my M is truly a decision I make everyday now...one I never thought about 5 years ago.

and this is why affairs are so very life changing.We have to think about things we didn't before and assimilate those things and actions into moving forward in some way. It's tough.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

The conditions we face do not define us. They remind us of who we are and who we want to be.


Posts: 5261 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
cayc
♀ Member
Member # 21964
Default  Posted: 6:40 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When you grow up in a house with some sort of abuse, so the sands are always shifting beneath your feet, you learn as a child that your behavior can directly influence the outcome. So my dad was an alcoholic and I learned how to tip toe around that and manage his outbursts. Great for survival as a kid. But as an adult, it taught me to focus on someone else's behavior and feelings and moderate my behavior and feelings as a result. Voila, codependency. It's less trying to control the outcome, and more making yourself a bit player in the action so that the outcome isn't bad. You wind up in the same place (moving chess pieces with an eye to getting somewhere in the future), but I think the way out of the habit is not thinking "I need to let go of controlling" but instead thinking "what do I really feel here. And why?"

It's getting in touch with your inner self, who actually has good thoughts and opinions, they've just been buried under the hyper-focus on everyone else's feelings and opinions.

It is detaching ever so slightly. To a codependent who has glommed on to their partner like a barnacle on a boat, detaching seems scary. You associate detaching with not caring. At SI we tend to say 180 and we often do it as a form of removing ourselves from the crazy so we can organize an S or D. But detaching also works when you want to be with someone. Detaching means you recognize how they feel, but instead of adjusting yourself, you say, "now what do I feel".

Istaclimb, your husband isn't sailing your ship. You are. You have all the control you need. That you feel scared to do some things because of a what if? A perfectly valid feeling. Let it be for now. Theres' no need to force it, it's a feeling. It's not the truth, it's not a fact, it's a feeling.

Just honor your feelings. You will find much more peace that way than you will via berating yourself with shoulds (e.g. I should do this/not do that b/c my IC tells me so).


"The difference between involvement and commitment is like ham and eggs. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed." -Martina Navratilova
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 3120 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Mexico
LA44
♀ Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok, I am nodding my head from one post to the next and then AFrayedNot says this:

I'll call bullshit on this too. a large part of being a mature human being is foreseeing how the consequences of our actions will effect others and taking ownership of that

and I nod my head. Followed by Ascendant writing this...

Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that other people can be impacted by the decisions you make, but that's not the same thing as causing those feelings.

Ok, so I have control over my feelings but my H's behavior WAS shitty so how else was I supposed to feel following a betrayal?

Help! I am confused!

[This message edited by LA44 at 7:27 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)]


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2443 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
ItsaClimb
♀ Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For me, the current journey is accepting that I control is a spectrum, and just because I give up some control, or accept some chaos, disorder, unknown, doesn't mean there will be a disaster or that things are totally out of control.

^^ I have such a hard time with this. I have such difficulty with letting go.. I know it's co-dependent, I know it comes from my extremely chaotic childhood, I understand it, but geez letting it go is hard!

Ok, so I have control over my feelings but my H's behavior WAS shitty so how else was I supposed to feel following a betrayal?

Yes LA44 I battle with this too. Our MC would often say "you can't blame WH for making you feel like that, you choose how you feel, he doesn't "make" you feel anything" Uuuuh but if he is behaving like a total shit, well then SURELY my natural feeling would be pain/anger/whatever and he is responsible for that? He IS the cause of my pain/anger/whatever... I wouldn't be feeling that way if it weren't for his actions. I just don't get it.

I understand that if his behaviour is really offending me, then I could simply walk away. But that won't alter the fact that he hurt me. surely if we are both intending to R, then he has to take responsibility for how his behaviour affects me?

[This message edited by ItsaClimb at 9:03 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)]


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 19yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 1022 | Registered: Oct 2012
ItsaClimb
♀ Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The thing about this A rollercoaster is that it robs us of the one thing we assumed to be true...that barring death, our spouses, our soul mates (for lack of a better term) would be there to support us, to put us and our children above all else as we would have for them. Now we can never KNOW that for sure...at least I can't.

My decision to stay in my M is truly a decision I make everyday now...one I never thought about 5 years ago.

^^ this exactly.

Detaching means you recognize how they feel, but instead of adjusting yourself, you say, "now what do I feel".
^^ working VERY hard on this.


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 19yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 1022 | Registered: Oct 2012
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1) Living in the here and now

This sounds like pure hedonism, but it's not. IMO, and in my interpretation, this means instead something like 'being aware of and controlling what you think, feel, and do right now'.

Mots BSes have lots of feelings stirred up by the A(s) conducted by our partners. The A(s) are all in the past, but our feelings are in the here and now. We trigger because of past events, but the triggers occur here and now.

At the same time, it's important, especially to our recovery, to distinguish between the past and the present. My W showed me love during her A, and she does now, too. It's important for me to realize that she has changed - she knows a lot more about what love is, she feels M love for me alone, she's doing her best not to hide herself from me now, etc., etc., etc.

Probably, the focus on here and now is aimed at not letting our past control our present.

I really don't see how we can consider the future without getting out of the here and now, and we need to consider the future in all our decisions.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10352 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can relate and never would have understood the whole Living In The Now stuff if I hadn't started MMA years ago. Focusing on the now doesn't make the problems go away, but it lets you be involved in what you are doing right then. It helped that I got the reinforcement of someone throwing me into an armbar if I was too spaced out. My instructor would tell me I was thinking too much and needed to be present more. Well he also told me I needed to stop fucking spazzing out.

It seems counterintuitive but ultimately it gives you more control, not less. Being present and calm means you have control over yourself and by extension those things and people you choose to have in your life - not as a puppeteer but as a way to define the conditions on which you interact.

I think the new age trendy stuff takes good ideas and runs them into the ground. Being present doesn't mean ignoring the future or not thinking things through - it's more like a simplified way of prioritizing things.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7477 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
brokensmile322
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Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, May 14th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok, so I have control over my feelings but my H's behavior WAS shitty so how else was I supposed to feel following a betrayal?
Yes LA44 I battle with this too. Our MC would often say "you can't blame WH for making you feel like that, you choose how you feel, he doesn't "make" you feel anything" Uuuuh but if he is behaving like a total shit, well then SURELY my natural feeling would be pain/anger/whatever and he is responsible for that? He IS the cause of my pain/anger/whatever... I wouldn't be feeling that way if it weren't for his actions. I just don't get it.

I understand that if his behaviour is really offending me, then I could simply walk away. But that won't alter the fact that he hurt me. surely if we are both intending to R, then he has to take responsibility for how his behaviour affects me?

See there is a slight catch in what you are saying vs. what your MC is saying….

Your WH is responsible for the "actions" that cause your feelings, but your feelings are your own. How you feel about any one thing in particular has to do with your experience growing up, your character traits, your self worth, your beliefs, your self esteem, your FOO etc… In any given situation, how one person reacts 'feeling' wise is different from another person's based on their own experience.

You are not wrong for feeling what you feel. Many times it is understandable that you feel a certain way.

But this

he has to take responsibility for how his behaviour affects me?

is where the differentiation occurs. How it affects you will be based on those things above. If it totally screws you up, the feelings you have may be understandable and justified, but, ultimately it is up to YOU to make you better. If you have a remorseful spouse, they can help you by being supportive, loving and remorseful but ultimately YOU have to make changes to make you heal. And you read this on SI over and over again in different ways... when the BS finally figures out that they have their own work to do… It seems counterintuitive, but it is true.

This is why, even when a person doesn't have a remorseful spouse, they can move on and heal without them. How it ultimately affects you is up to you.

^^This used to piss me off big time.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1541 | Registered: Jun 2012
ItsaClimb
♀ Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, May 15th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you sisoon, as always you speak a language I can understand.

Probably, the focus on here and now is aimed at not letting our past control our present.

I really don't see how we can consider the future without getting out of the here and now, and we need to consider the future in all our decisions.

^^ this makes a lot of sense to me.


Being present doesn't mean ignoring the future or not thinking things through - it's more like a simplified way of prioritizing things.

and this ^^ too

thanks for responding brokensmile, as always you give me food for thought.

Your WH is responsible for the "actions" that cause your feelings, but your feelings are your own.

In any given situation, how one person reacts 'feeling' wise is different from another person's based on their own experience.

when you put it like this ^^ I can grasp it. I think in MC I struggled with the feeling that our MC was allowing my husband to get away with things by continually pointing out that how I was feeling had nothing to do with him...he'd kind of sit there smugly and I felt like the stupid child trying to "tell on" him. I came away feeling like she had given him a "get out of jail free card" regarding the A (and any other inappropriate behaviour) because if I got upset about it it was my fault because he "wasn't forcing me to feel that way, I was choosing to feel that way". Gah!


[This message edited by ItsaClimb at 12:44 PM, May 15th (Thursday)]


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 19yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 1022 | Registered: Oct 2012
jupiter13
♀ Member
Member # 40999
Default  Posted: 5:11 AM, May 17th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Future? Plans? not any more the new me plans for nothing and certainly has none for the future. My needs and wants can not be full filled with anyhing in this new marriage but they can not be filled in an relationship I will ever be in. Once my dreams were shattered I have nothing to replace them with. Been there done that. The only thing left was to have a faithful husband etc not no more anything goes roll with the flow. enjoy what I can discard the rest.

Posts: 51 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Modesto
crossroads2010
♀ Member
Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, May 18th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really don't see how we can consider the future without getting out of the here and now, and we need to consider the future in all our decisions.

Good point...also...my present has changed due to the A...any decisions about the future are all influenced by the present...what I feel now. I really cannot avoid making decisions about the future...especially at my age...late fifties, but I do avoid making concrete decisions and there is always a plan B lurking for every Plan A...maybe not a bad thing. Itsa... I also miss the security of having a distinct future with a devoted H as my plan...but, the reality is, it was never a sure thing. We just have to do the best to make good decision with what we have.


Posts: 600 | Registered: Nov 2010
ItsaClimb
♀ Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 1:28 AM, May 19th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also miss the security of having a distinct future with a devoted H as my plan...but, the reality is, it was never a sure thing.

So true! I am starting to see that I am grieving the loss of something that was never real to begin with. Sad, but true!


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 19yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 1022 | Registered: Oct 2012
Topic Posts: 45
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