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User Topic: A debate about "stealing"
jrc1963
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Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We at work got into an unofficial debate about what constitutes stealing...

It's my contention that if a student takes an item off my desk or a peers desk and uses that item (pencil, pen, paper) without the owners permission then that is stealing... Whether it leaves the room or not.

Others call that "borrowing". Since the item hasn't left the premises (classroom) the person who took the item without the owners permission is simply borrowing it.

I say that if you take my pen/pencil/marker and use it or use it up or use it inappropriately, whether you return it or not, you're not returning it in it's original condition and you've denied me the opportunity to use that item.

What do you all think?


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24591 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
MovingUpward
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Member # 14866
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A formal dictionary definition of borrow is

take and use (something that belongs to someone else) with the intention of returning it.

Your official state's definition is

812.014 Theft.—
(1) A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:

So technically you are both right.

I am sure that Emily Post's Etiquette book or Dear Abby would say that to borrow something without the owners permission is not good etiquette.


AKA Moo

Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; they’ll scratch you up time and time again but in the end you’re polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.


Posts: 52584 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Big Blue Nation
Sad in AZ
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Default  Posted: 8:13 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's probably a matter of perspective.

The perpetrator 'borrowed'

The victim was 'robbed'


I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

Posts: 20278 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
metamorphisis
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Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it's rude and an opportunity for a lesson on asking and being polite, but I don't consider it stealing.



“We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.”... Anais Nin

Posts: 44947 | Registered: Sep 2006
ThoughtIKnewYa
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Default  Posted: 8:18 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, I know that if you're in a retail store and you pocket something, security will wait for you to actually leave the store before confronting you. (I know this from my former experience as a retail manager.)

Posts: 11742 | Registered: Mar 2008
sisoon
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Default  Posted: 8:19 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think borrowing needs permission. Without giving permission, how can you know the person intends to return it?


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10345 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
jrc1963
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Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok...

What if the "borrow" the item... say a marker... without permission... use up all the ink and then return it. They have returned the case (shell) of the item, but it's no longer usable to the owner.

If you go into a store and eat a bunch of food and leave w/o paying, are you just borrowing? I know, it's just semantics at this point. But you get my drift.


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24591 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
ThoughtIKnewYa
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Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 8:46 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think I saw a post somewhere about a teacher who got sick of kids not returning "borrowed" pencils or markers, so she got pencil with "I Love Justin Bieber" printed on them. (Or did I see that in SPF?? Not sure.)

Posts: 11742 | Registered: Mar 2008
jrc1963
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Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Believe it or not... it's not a pencil thing... I buy pencils for students...


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24591 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
Dreamboat
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Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They have returned the case (shell) of the item, but it's no longer usable to the owner.

I would call them a smuck and a jerk. And I would avoid them at all costs and never leave any unattended items ever again.

But it is like returning an empty carton of milk to the fridge. Infuriating, but not much you can do about it. The person did what they did and you cannot do anything about what they did. A court of law does not care, so whatever name you call them or whatever you call the act is just semantics. So why debate it?


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17679 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There are several sacred things in this world that you don't ever mess with. One of them happens to be another man's fries. Now, you just remember that and you'll live a long and healthy life.

You don't mess with shit that obviously belongs to someone else without asking unless you apologize or replace it later and had a good reason for doing so. It's a philosophical debate over a pencil today. In the future, it's a potential asskicking from Keith David over fries.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7476 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
norabird
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Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a borrower by nature. (Have lax morals by nature?) I tend to not feel especially protective of my stuff and by extension will 'borrow' someone else's pen, etc. without asking. So I wouldn't consider this stealing. It's more of a boundary issue--people have different ones, some more strict than others. I have run into tension before out of not really understanding that not everyone else has boundaries about stuff as loose as mine! So in the classroom it's probably best to explain that others may not WANT their stuff borrowed and that therefore one must ask. However I think some people just are not wired to ask or to care if they aren't asked in turn.

But obviously it should be returned in good condition! that should go without saying and is quite rude. If I were to borrow something and it got messed up I would offer a replacement!

[This message edited by norabird at 9:56 AM, May 22nd (Thursday)]


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
Charity411
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Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm of the opinion that something isn't borrowed until you ask for permission to use something and permission is given. How long it gets used for doesn't matter.

A perfect example is, if someone decided to borrow someone else's car without permission it would be auto theft. It doesn't matter if they returned it in an hour, a week, a month or ten years. If it was in that person's possession without the permission of the owner, they are considered in possesion of a stolen vehicle. If that wasn't the case people wouldn't bother to buy cars. They'd just borrow them.

I feel that way about little things as well because who decides if something is just a little thing and it's not stealing or if it's big enough to be stealing. If you keep pushing the boundaries you will eventually piss someone off.


Posts: 385 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Illinois
Crescita
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Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wouldn't split hairs over definitions, I'd just have a frank discussion about what is and isn't okay in your classroom. Using other people's possessions without asking permission is not okay whether they call it borrowing or not.

Posts: 3445 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: The Valley of the Sun
DeadMumWalking
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Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you want to borrow something, ask permission FIRST. Taking something without prior permission is STEALING.


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 25 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 30
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

Posts: 2606 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
GabyBaby
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Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Borrowing means asking permission BEFORE taking something that doesn't belong to you.
In my opinion, if you fail to do that, you are stealing.


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6522 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
9years
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Member # 21212
Default  Posted: 2:30 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Such a thing I usually use the word 'take' if they didn't ask it isn't borrowing, if they put it back it doesn't evolve into stealing. Just my opinion though.


Just say yes to the rest

Posts: 1929 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: BC, Canada
tushnurse
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Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I say press charges, throw the book at em!!!!

Sorry I'm not the best person to ask this question right now.

My kid took a pair of shoes and stretched them out, so now I will never be able to wear them again, without asking.

My other kid took my "to go" tea container. dented the shit out of it, and broke the top. So I can't or won't use it again.

My H took my vehicle last night for a bee job, and broke the passenger mirror backing out of the garage, and left all his tools, ladders and crap in it for me to find this morning on my way out the door.

So Yah I'm pretty much of the thought "KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY SHIT".

So yah file charges, seek the death penalty if needed.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8693 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
gonnabe2016
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Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The saying in my house has always been: "if it's not yours, then don't touch it."

Imo, borrowing/taking without permission technically equals 'stealing.'


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8074 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
osxgirl
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Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Whether or not it is really "stealing" (and I know everyone has completely different opinions), it is extremely inconsiderate.

Back in college, I was doing a co-op (alternating semesters between school and a real job, arranged through the university). We were put in 2 bedroom apartments with 3 roommates. The first semester doing that, I absolutely HATED it.

Why? Not the job - I loved that. And being from Indiana originally, I was enjoying being in California, going to the beach, etc. Made some pretty good friends.

It was my roommates. All summer long they had friends and family just showing up, never even giving a heads-up. Trying to walk through the living room to leave the house in the morning was like running an obstacle course with people as the obstacles. And it was party central all the time - even during the week. I took my job seriously, and was having trouble getting enough sleep during the week - forget trying to sit in the living room and relax at night.

But the worst part was.... food. I couldn't keep food (or diet coke) in the apartment. Every time I went grocery shopping, everything I bought disappeared. I had planned out meals.... I'd come home, and have to go right back out again, because the food I'd bought for those meals was gone. My roommates would tell me later - oh, sorry, we "borrowed" your hamburger because we were out. We'll replace it next time we go to the store. (Which they never did - replace it that is, and most times it seemed they never went to the store either!)

That didn't help me. I went to use something I had purchased, and it wasn't there. It sucked that they never replaced it, but even if they had - it still completely inconvenienced me at the time.

I couldn't keep a cold diet coke in the fridge so I'd have one when I got home. They were always gone (and again, seldom replaced, though I was always told they had been "borrowed"). Even the few times they did replace them - it meant I didn't have the cold ones there when I wanted them (and they never bothered to put any in the fridge for me!)

I finally had to resort to this: when I bought my cokes, I hid them. In the morning before I went to work, I would open one and drink a little, then put it in the fridge. That way, it would still be there, cold (if slightly flat) when I got home.

And I quit buying food ahead of time. I ate out or from the food trucks near the building for lunch at work. I stopped at the grocery store every day on my way home to buy that night's dinner.

It really, really sucked. I told my roommates to stop - I got "the look" that said I was being uptight..... after all, they just "borrowed" it.

Yeah, they didn't see it as stealing at all. But it wasn't there to use when I wanted, even though I purchased it. How is that not stealing?

[This message edited by osxgirl at 1:01 PM, May 23rd (Friday)]


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