It makes sense to me that an A, revenge or otherwise, may come into the mix for a BS in order to cope.
How does this make sense?
It's crappy coping skills, no matter what order it happened in.
How does this make sense?
It's crappy coping skills, no matter what order it happened in.
It makes sense in that I can understand it happening when I think of the behavior in terms of poor coping skills, of being vulnerable to allowing a slippery slope relationship to develop in an ill-guided attempt at dealing, of not necessarily recognizing the behavior for what it is because your mind is so clouded.
It doesn't make sense in terms of being justified. It's not.
But one thing my A has taught me & one common thread I've picked up on is that many of us that go that route have shitty coping skills. If tested by an A, a BS that may never have thought they could do that may in fact have an A of their own. It doesn't make it right. But how many of us ever thought we'd cheat? Very very few. Doesn't make it right or even something we have to accept. I can understand it may be a reality though, especially with someone lost in their own pain.
My best thinking brought me to SI.
Now about the revenge affairs:
A revenge affair might take place soon after DD but it would be pointless for obvious reasons.
Of course it could be also take place years after. Some BS might think that if they divorce their WS, they would still have to process the same pain, but making that decision they would also hurt their children. One hurt person is better than two or three.
So they stay... but they develop a wondering eye... they remember that they were also been hit by cool OP but they remained faithful because of their love for their spouse, their integrity and vows. But now this love is not the same... They pull themselves together, they take their time to heal, but IF the opportunity arrives they might take it. After all, why wouldn't they want to live the thrill, the "drug"? "It" must be very good, otherwise how would "this" make their spouses so "foggy"? But how about the consequnses? They might think that after their spouse's infidelity their marriage is not good anyway. How much worse it could become?
Don't get me wrong here, I understand the WW better than you think. I don't hate them. They are human beings. All waywards are not the same. There are a lot of hidden or unhidden issues, circumstances and many reasons why people cheat. I just gave you an example of how easily a BS can become a WS...
"You can't fix a broken man, but he can break you"
The reason why many waywards often put up boundaries and say that they won't tolerate an A from their BS is because they are having to find and learn new boundaries and coping mechanisms. It is called getting healthy. And I believe that there are several madhatter couples on here, myself included that have stuck around after the BS has had an A.
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
Anyone who chooses to have an A is 100% responsible for his choices. Even if his partner cheated on him first.
they remained faithful because of their love for their spouse, their integrity and vows. But now this love is not the same
Perhaps their love waned, and their unilaterally-broken vows seem cheapened.
why wouldn't they want to live the thrill, the "drug"?
Because they still have integrity.
I don't think my H is unique in that the affair was not a happy-go-lucky, not-a-care-in-the-world, skipping-through-the-daisies kind of thing. It was not a new relationship, full of promise. Even at his foggiest, he was conflicted and anxious. He felt like a ghost, and at the end, a shell of a person. He and his AP spent their whole time together propping each other up, and trying to justify why they weren't "so bad." This wasn't after 2 years, this was after 2 months.
He isn't rationalizing, he'll tell me at the time he thought he could do no wrong -- he felt that he was amazing, and his ego blew up to the size of Manhattan. But, I can tell you that this is not the same as my experience of falling in love, and it wasn't the same as his experience of falling in love with me. It may have been more intense in some ways (due to the hothouse, no-air-allowed-in nature of an affair), but it was not more real. It was less real, actually because it was an illusion. He was "in love" with his reflection in a mirror, not the AP.
The mechanism is similar, but the context is so radically different.
[This message edited by bionicgal at 6:47 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]
How did we get from The Fog to revenge affairs?
My fog was of my own making. Bionicgal, like your WH, I thought I could do no wrong during A1, until it started eating me alive. I was a mess, living two lives, but so clouded in my judgement and thought processes, I refused to do anything about it. a2 was a little different, but again, I created whatever fog I needed to hid myself from reality.
My fog was all me. After Dday (s) my fog continued because I was still selfishly thought that I could control everything. I could lie and manipulate my way thorough this. I didn't have to face the music, and it was my choice again.
I think the word fog denotes a natural occurrence, and that is why some bristle at its use, but in my opinion, the *fog* is of your own making. It exists as long as you let it exist. It happens if you let it happen.
Just my opinion.
Separated transitioning to D
I would be curious to hear whether many waywards felt, in retrospect, like the affair was falling in love in the same, pure sense that it was with their spouse.
No. For me, my A was borne of desperation. Very different from the start of any normal relationship. I was selfish with the AP in a way I have never been with someone I was actually in a relationship with, I was using him.
I told him whatever I needed to so that he would keep validating me and holding up that mirror with the false reflection (you're so beautiful BBT, you're such a wonderful and special person etc etc) AP didn't matter, he could have been anyone. The A wasn't about him, it was about me.
My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13
Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.
me, i dont know. i cant speak from others perspectives, only my own. in my case - i dont see how its possible to have a ONS with person 1, "regret it", and then wind up having a ONS 2 with person 2 a few months later and NOT think about ONS 1 before having 2. its hard to conceptualize that someone puts their hand in a meat grinder TWICE. isnt once enough to learn??? what about the third time, the LTA - over time didnt she see it was sticking the hand in the meat grinder? what about the dozen guys with the photos (1 of whom was ONS 2 and another of whom became LTA guy). how can they be so compartmentalized in her mind? it bewilders me.
sometimes i think the fog is nothing more than telling yourself whatever it takes to allow yourself to do whatever it is you want to do. the argument made a few pages ago resonated with me in some ways - a a thief stealing, vandalism, crossing the street when the crossing light is red, or even tossing litter onto the ground is doing the same thing, isnt it? its offering excuses to justify and permit behavior that the person KNOWS is wrong. the justifications probably are more similar than we care to admit. everyone is doing it. if they dont know, it doesnt matter. i wont ever get caught. someone else can clean up the mess. etc, etc. but when i do wrong things i know they are wrong and make a carefully calculated decision to do them - and much more often than not i dont do them.
i guess i can accept the fog on an intellectual level inside my head but in my heart i dont fully believe in. i can accept that someone can lie to themselves so often they believe their own crap in abstract theory but find it hard to accept that they actually believe it and instead are just using what they know to be untrue and crap to justify what they actually want to do. im still muddling through this in my own mind ....
on revenge affairs ... i agree and disagree with some of the points made.
a revenge affair would be done to either hurt the other person (feel my pain or to even the score) or because the person engaging in it feels "why should my boundaries be so high when my spouses boundaries werent" and begins to engage in wayward thinking of their own - perhaps entering that "fog" im not sure really exists or not.
maybe this is heretical on the forums but i would see a revenge affair as the one type of affair that actually has a "reason". the other person stabbed me in the back when i trusted them and F them but ... im gonna get them back. so on one level i can see that there is no elusive "why", its pretty cut and dried.
on the other hand i also dont understand it. ive experienced my fallout from my wife sticking her hand in the meat grinder - multiple times. im watching the effect it had on her. on our marriage. on our daughter. i sure as hell dont want to stick my hand in the meat grinder (even less than ever before and i wasnt even slightly tempted before) too. why would i want to do something that is so destructive not only to my spouse but to myself, my marriage, and my daughter? in that perspective it makes no sense. its like cutting off my nose to spite my face.
from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA
??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys
maybe this is heretical on the forums but i would see a revenge affair as the one type of affair that actually has a "reason".
Please, please explain to me in really small, simple words for my very small feeble brain how it is okay or understandable for the BS to have an affair in response to their WS's affair. Because, I. Just. Don't. Get. It.
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:04 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]
It was very hard at first for my H to realize that he, in fact, used someone. (He did feel like he loved her in the A. . . it was the only way he could justify his intense "feelings.")
Can I ask if you feel you were used in return by your AP? My H seems uninterested in thinking about it, and seems to not be angry about it. He says he focuses on his behavior and tries to think about her as little as possible. But something tells me, that she doesn't feel similarly. (She seems to feel somewhat victimized by the situation, if I am reading her behavior post dday correctly.)
sometimes i think the fog is nothing more than telling yourself whatever it takes to allow yourself to do whatever it is you want to do
The fog, on a scientific note, is dopamine induced euphoria that you attach to a person or persons or even things. The same feelings you get when you first fall in love or have a crush. You can do some outlandish things when you have those fantastical feelings. Things you could be quite ashamed of once the dopamine ceases to flow or you stop chasing the dopamine high.
It's no different than having a drug addiction that you are chasing the high of.
Once you go "no contact" with that drug or it loses it's euphoric appeal, you "sober" up and realize how ridiculous it was or could be.
Once off that high the OM/OW may not seem so appealing because the dopamine no longer hides the true fact that they have faults too. Faults you may have already seen, but too busy chasing the high to let it deter you. Is it the dopamine's fault?...Nope, it's the fault of the person for letting the dopamine rush rule their judgment.
So as for people who like alcohol must "Drink Responsibly" Those of us caught in the throes of dopamine must choose to "Think Responsibly"if we see that it is leading us to betrayal.